Dreminen169
Well-Known Member
I know how to collect with rice, but haven’t heard about the potato yet. Please Yoda me
Inoculations?
- Thread starter Dreminen169
- Start date
xtsho
Well-Known Member
Jadam Microbial Solution - Soil Health and Treatment | Chris Trump
Jadam Microbial Solution is a liquid solution used as for soil health and treatments made from potatoes. Learn more with Chris Trump!
christrump.com
Dreminen169
Well-Known Member
Do you use both a rice IMO & potato JMS for more diversity? Or do you just stick with the JMS?
Jadam Microbial Solution - Soil Health and Treatment | Chris Trump
Jadam Microbial Solution is a liquid solution used as for soil health and treatments made from potatoes. Learn more with Chris Trump!
xtsho
Well-Known Member
I use both.
How long does it take for the fungus inoculations to populate the rhizosphere?
Wastei
Well-Known Member
How long is a rope? To many factors to give a straight up answer.
Dreminen169
Well-Known Member
The short answer is they will start working within a few days, however it could take months to get a full blown network
FermentFred
Active Member
I'm really curious if anyone's looked under a scope or done some tests on IMO vs JMS. I know IMO is typically turned into a dry compost type amendment but I have seen people do ACT and JMS style brews using inoculated rice before....I just wonder if it's worth the wait to do it KNF style when the JADAM style is so much more direct and convienient. Or even if things like cedar boxes matter, or if burying a bunch of rice in cheesecloth will make a comparable end product (I don't doubt the effectiveness, only the similarity and relative potency). Too many questions, not enough answers! At least, imo (see what I did there?
)
Wastei
Well-Known Member
JADAM is a KNF practice. IMO is indigenous micro organism. You usually use covered cooked rice at different locations in the garden to catch a wide range of microbes. Then use that to make microbial teas. You could also find good inoculated leaves and use that, IMO is just so easy to make and store.I'm really curious if anyone's looked under a scope or done some tests on IMO vs JMS. I know IMO is typically turned into a dry compost type amendment but I have seen people do ACT and JMS style brews using inoculated rice before....I just wonder if it's worth the wait to do it KNF style when the JADAM style is so much more direct and convienient. Or even if things like cedar boxes matter, or if burying a bunch of rice in cheesecloth will make a comparable end product (I don't doubt the effectiveness, only the similarity and relative potency). Too many questions, not enough answers! At least, imo (see what I did there?
The whole idea with KNF is that it's sustainable forever, you get everything you need from your local homestead. You support the natural biome.
xtsho
Well-Known Member
Good questions. I don't have the answers. I'm sure there is some information online somewhere.I'm really curious if anyone's looked under a scope or done some tests on IMO vs JMS. I know IMO is typically turned into a dry compost type amendment but I have seen people do ACT and JMS style brews using inoculated rice before....I just wonder if it's worth the wait to do it KNF style when the JADAM style is so much more direct and convienient. Or even if things like cedar boxes matter, or if burying a bunch of rice in cheesecloth will make a comparable end product (I don't doubt the effectiveness, only the similarity and relative potency). Too many questions, not enough answers! At least, imo (see what I did there?
xtsho
Well-Known Member
Here's a good document describing the process of making IMO 1, IMO 2, IMO 3, and IMO 4.
Which means the full benefits may not be there within a single grow, which explains why some people are replanting without disturbing the old soil mix too much, leaving roots in there.. Now I'm wondering how they feed the soil the second grow.
FermentFred
Active Member
Oh I'm definitely aware of the production methods used for IMO1,2,3,4,5, etc. as practiced in KNF vs producing JMS as practiced in JADAM, what I'm more curious about is the microbial populations each one tends to encourage after brewing and after application. And the differences between using different varations/shortcuts like skipping the whole cedar box thing, different carb sources like rice vs potato vs pasta vs molasses/sugar. Shit, aerated vs not aerated. Like xtsho said someone out there is probably looking at this, I just need to poke around and find em lol.
Thanks, and yes I quite enjoy learning about soils but you know, in a casual way, I already have great soil but there is no fungus in it, yet..... I'll have a listen for sure, I've watched Harley Smith videos which I thought were great, and some other soil related videos and articles. Its slowly turning into an obsession.If I were you I would listen to some kis organics pod casts also buildASoil have some great info sounds like you are getting pulled into the rabbit hole and have a tonne of questions in your head there’s tonnes of quality info on hear ….
Flowki
Well-Known Member
To be blunt, I will sit back until I see some guy smashing 2.0gpw with a true organic/synthetic system. A one were they can prove the plants are not just being hard carried by the synthetics, while flushing a majority of the microbes down the drain. But it also has to offer more quality, why go through all the extra effort if not, people already hit those numbers in synth, reliably. Unless it's for some kind of pleasure reasoning?, that's fair play. I was not doing it right, the problem was I could not find out why, without requiring years of trial and error. The below is why, might save somebody some time and money, or help figure it out (just don't forget to tell me how ;p).
I tried to find the minimum amount of each element needed for MJ and at it's various growth stages. Also the synthetic ppm levels that make the roots stop signalling associated microbes, the functions and interplay of aminos and god knows what ever else aside. I don't know this stuff, but it should be known, if we are spending big money and a lot of extra labour on it. That's why I looked into it, the products are not cheap and the extra work/time involved with cheap options need to actually pay off in yield, or else you could get extra work in a job that does, or spend more time watching netflix.
At the time it became obvious not a great deal was known about specific elemental values for mj, and the functions of microbes/roots, at-least with MJ. All I recall is that 90ppm N, 30 ppm P and 60ppm K was stated as minimum amounts for basic mj plant function, roughly. At the upper end, 140-60 N (late veg), 90 P (mid flower) 130-70K (late flower). I could not find anything in terms of all the other macro and micro nutrients.
In terms of microbes, most of the studies related to P for MJ, bit of a coincidence given nutrient companies obsession with P boosters. At 60ppm P, roots begin to prioritise the synthetic feed, and stop sending as many signals for microbes. At 80ppm P or so, they exclusively stop sending signals to any P related microbes, it's something like that anyway. Microbes already in symbiosis, I don't know what happens to those, do they just starve due to roots not feeding them?, if the roots keep feeding them, why, they are not doing anything, why should I feed the plant to feed free loading microbes?.
All that I could really go off was the P values covered in studies, so I could only assume you need to supply no more than 1/3 of the plants maximum amount of NPK etc as synthetics, but also knowing what phases to do that during. So basically no more than 30ppm P, or else you may begin to shut off root signalling. Now with that, you have to know the exact amount of P required over the whole life cycle of the plant. If you provide say 50ppm P from mid veg to early flower, that will build in the soil/coco and at some point shut off microbes, or not? you can't exactly check, but in theory that's what should happen. Apply that build up threshold to all the other nutrients. Carry over too much synthetic N from early veg to early flower, where is it going to go?. If it sits unused it's a waste of money, but if the roots start using it, what use are the associated microbes now, another waste of money.
To avoid that massive unknown, you'd need to have a solid handle on all the elements minimum amounts through each phase to not over do the synthetic side through build ups, along with any symbiosis issues relating to the microbes. That's clearly a ridicules task when you think about it. So the easy option is to water to run off in order to clear any build ups. Doing that comes with the obvious downside, you will wash synthetics, microbes and organic compounds out of the medium, complete waste of time and money. If you don't use run off and the synthetic levels build, then the roots shut off signalling, according to the limited studies I could find on it. If that happens you are again wasting microbe products, time and money.
PH by what I could read was also a nightmare to understand, even if you feed the bare minimum and keep to the minimum in each phase, ph can increase or reduce uptake of synthetics. Uptake reduction of certain elements will lead to synthetic build ups of that element. Reducing ph to be more in-line with the synthetic uptake values will then begin to battle against the preferred soil, root or microbe ph. For example, if you are feeding too heavy on synthetic N, and the microbes over produce ammonia, that will go unused and can lower the ph of the soil, if I am not mistaken. Things like that will go on though, they may create a balance, or you get unlucky.
In all I realised how ridiculously complicated it is. I get it, many grow for the art of it, or for various things like that. My numbers and so fourth may not be correct above, but the complexity of it really is, just making that aware to people, learn from my mistakes so to speak. If people prefer consistent high yield, it's going to be a shit ton of trial and error mixing synthetics/organics, because trying to understand all of the above is a PHD. You will likely have to try certain products at certain rates until something just clicks, it may click in 2 runs, it may never click, somewhat luck based, and you will not truly know where the problem was.
Again this stuff may be out dated, correct me on anything, it has been a few year now since I last looked. For now, I just see light synthetics as a potential early veg boost in a 100% organic grow, while microbes colonise. Applying it after that, especially in higher ppm rates, it may start killing off microbes, and since the plants would still be getting fed and happy, how would you know?.
That was a massive wall, sorry.
Last edited:
FermentFred
Active Member
one idea is shallow incorporation of crop residues, green manures, dry amendments, etc. after harvest so it has time to break down by the start of next season
I understand thank you.. I have worms in my soil so I'm now wondering if top feeding like that can also keep them alive. Which probably explains why they chose red wigglers as they stay up top. I'm using random worms I dug up from the garden, seems to produce the castings past 2 years, some are a few inches down but I think most are deeper. Previous grows they died before the end of the grow, I think due to the high temperatures, which are under control now now I've switched to LED.
Dreminen169
Well-Known Member
Correct, & why the soil keeps getting better with age. Most people will do a slight re amend after each cycle like @FermentFred said
Do you think its possible to keep some worms alive in there indefinitely re-amending like that?