Is PAR Just Another Gimmick?

OldMedUser · Nov 24, 2023

Hollatchaboy said:
Without measuring, how do you know you're not giving the plant 'too little light?

I would just use the cheapo light sensor on that 3-in-1 probe to measure the intensity at the tops of the plants. The needle goes from 0 - 2000 and anything over 500 - 1500 on it's scale worked well. If I was using the light mover then it could be over the 2000 mark without plant damage and my 1000W SHPS could be just a foot away.

With seedlings or small plants I'd want to have them no higher than 500 then lower the light as they became used to it.

I'm still amazed I was able to grow really nice crops for decades without ever measuring my light output.

Beginners luck I guess.

Rocket Soul · Nov 26, 2023

m1100 said:
imo if a led has only 3000k leds and a real small percentage of ir uv etc and another one has 3000k + 3500k + 6500k +ir +far red + uv the second would grow better

in the variety is the taste

The 3000K + 3500K + 6500K: if in equal proportions then it would be the same as using 4000k diodes (or extremely close). Adding several white diodes together doesnt make the spectrum wider or add anything new to the spectrum, as long as they are all based on the same 450nm pump.

A lot of manufacturers use 3000k +5000k and markets this as "good for veg and flower". But the reason they do this is not enhanced spectrum, its just strategic diode purchase; with these 2 base spectrums they can make any white between 3000k and 5000k if they ever needed to tweak their spectrum. Adding them in equal proportions give a 4000k light, its been tested here on the forum.
Adding ir far red and uv: personally i feel this is beneficial. One note, when you see a light advertised with IR diodes its actually far reds, ive never seen any comercial light adding +800nm diodes. Maybe black dog.

OldMedUser · Nov 26, 2023

Rocket Soul said:
The 3000K + 3500K + 6500K: if in equal proportions then it would be the same as using 4000k diodes (or extremely close). Adding several white diodes together doesnt make the spectrum wider or add anything new to the spectrum, as long as they are all based on the same 450nm pump.

A lot of manufacturers use 3000k +5000k and markets this as "good for veg and flower". But the reason they do this is not enhanced spectrum, its just strategic diode purchase; with these 2 base spectrums they can make any white between 3000k and 5000k if they ever needed to tweak their spectrum. Adding them in equal proportions give a 4000k light, its been tested here on the forum.
Adding ir far red and uv: personally i feel this is beneficial. One note, when you see a light advertised with IR diodes its actually far reds, ive never seen any comercial light adding +800nm diodes. Maybe black dog.

My background is in chemistry so not way up there in light knowledge but built myself a DIY LED bulb fixture 6 years ago that vegs plants pretty good with mostly 9W - 5000K bulbs in it tho I usually add a few 2700K to the mix for extra red light. They must emit more than just those two colours to grow healthy plants. For years I used T-12 fluoros with one 3000K for every two 6400K and they worked pretty good as well. The wife still uses my bank of 8 T-1 2tubes to start her plants every spring and they do pretty good too.

Charles U Farley · Nov 26, 2023

OldMedUser said:
I'm still amazed I was able to grow really nice crops for decades without ever measuring my light output.

Beginners luck I guess.

I've never measured pH, PAR, lumens, or anything else for that matter and I've grown for many decades now. When people get all caught up in the numbers, measuring, calculating, etc., they forget to just observe the plant and often miss what it is trying to tell 'em.

OldMedUser · Nov 26, 2023

Charles U Farley said:
I've never measured pH, PAR, lumens, or anything else for that matter and I've grown for many decades now. When people get all caught up in the numbers, measuring, calculating, etc., they forget to just observe the plant and often miss what it is trying to tell 'em.

That's a skill that takes time to develop for sure so people need to pay more attention to the plants instead of readouts. Younger folks seem to think if it doesn't come from a screen then the info is invalid. Real life is where it's at!

:peace:

Sofa King Smoooth · Nov 26, 2023

I always learn alot reading you guys' posts. Thanks for sharing.

Lou66 · Nov 26, 2023

Charles U Farley said:
I've never measured pH, PAR, lumens, or anything else for that matter and I've grown for many decades now. When people get all caught up in the numbers, measuring, calculating, etc., they forget to just observe the plant and often miss what it is trying to tell 'em.

Yea and they make a good crop on the second try. How many years did it take you to get good product? No Internet, no measurement tools etc.

Charles U Farley · Nov 26, 2023

Lou66 said:
Yea and they make a good crop on the second try. How many years did it take you to get good product? No Internet, no measurement tools etc.

When I started really developing cannabis in the 80's, I had great genetics to begin with, so it didn't take me long, because the Zion Coptic Church knew how to breed cannabis in the '70s:

And because I've read all of these books:

The internet really wasn't needed, and still isn't. Humans have been growing cannabis for centuries, even before the internet. :cool:

If you don't get caught up in all the measurements, hype, marketing, or other cannabis specific bullshit that people tout as being the next, best thing and just observe the plants and take _care_ of them, they'll take _care_ of you.

If you stay at it and pay attention to what you're doing, they'll produce this for you before you know it:

I'll let you in a little secret from my experience, cannabis development is much more of an art than it is science.

Weather Report · Dec 12, 2023

Bugbee is a salesman and he is good at it.
Yes, got a Vivosun cuz of him, me too.
But, working 15 years as audio engineer I'm pretty sure I may fool you with my experience, specially if I'm trying to sell you things, like how my sound systems deliveries more dB in bass using less energy and find some measurements that could prove my point (already made, music today is about lows and highs, they stripped the middles, even in "reference" monitors like KRKs Rokit). Marketing shapes society. Just business. It's all around and it's shitty, "its evolution baby"..

I love to watch my grass grow.

Ps: before all these measurements, back in the days lots of growers got his 2L coke sized buds under HPS. I'm seeing lots of popcorn buds again with all these lights and nutes. ICMag got rid of all that HPS x Led comparisons.

NR613 · Dec 15, 2023

We can look at the spectrum and output of MH and HPS to see blue and red spectrum range but the intensity is different on LED.
I use a Vivosun 3 in 1 moisture/Light/Ph to measure light. I used it under HPS so looking for those numbers.

NR613 · Dec 15, 2023

Rocket Soul said:
The 3000K + 3500K + 6500K: if in equal proportions then it would be the same as using 4000k diodes (or extremely close). Adding several white diodes together doesnt make the spectrum wider or add anything new to the spectrum, as long as they are all based on the same 450nm pump.

I wonder? Having distinct 6500k to 2700K same as average 4000 to 5000K?

Rocket Soul said:
A lot of manufacturers use 3000k +5000k and markets this as "good for veg and flower". But the reason they do this is not enhanced spectrum, its just strategic diode purchase; with these 2 base spectrums they can make any white between 3000k and 5000k if they ever needed to tweak their spectrum. Adding them in equal proportions give a 4000k light, its been tested here on the forum.
Adding ir far red and uv: personally i feel this is beneficial. One note, when you see a light advertised with IR diodes its actually far reds, ive never seen any comercial light adding +800nm diodes. Maybe black dog.

Look where the spectrum peak differences are!?

Rocket Soul said:
give a 4000k light, its been tested here on the forum.

Rocket Soul · Dec 15, 2023

NR613 said:
I wonder? Having distinct 6500k to 2700K same as average 4000 to 5000K?

Look where the spectrum peak differences are!?

Seen it tested with a spectrometer. Not sure what else i can say to convince you.

NR613 · Dec 15, 2023

Anyone reading this comment on this?

Spectrum/Intensity through progression with QB2000 veg and M320 Flower

My understanding is blue light lower on the spectrum needs to be less intense vs higher up on the spectrum red light needs to be more intense to achieve to desired effect. Looking at the QB2000 Spectrum its peak is blue light so I'm using it for veg. QB2000 Driver Then flower under the M320...

www.rollitup.org

Rocket Soul · Dec 15, 2023

NR613 said:
Anyone reading this comment on this?

Spectrum/Intensity through progression with QB2000 veg and M320 Flower

My understanding is blue light lower on the spectrum needs to be less intense vs higher up on the spectrum red light needs to be more intense to achieve to desired effect. Looking at the QB2000 Spectrum its peak is blue light so I'm using it for veg. QB2000 Driver Then flower under the M320...

www.rollitup.org

Not quite sure what youre getting at: yes some blue is helpfull in veg, red is helpfull both in veg and flower.
The mixed boards: if you somehow control the power to each type of diode, yeah, use more blue in veg. But if theyre mixed on the same circuit it just adds up and mixes, 2700k + 6500k leds with the same base photon pump tends to average out at around 4000k. If you add up and average the total proportions of blue/green/red in the 2 spectrums you get the same results. I think even efficiency is the same but not seen it tested.

Star Dog · Dec 15, 2023

Based on nothing but a vague picture in my mind lol.

Straight 4k is 4k only full stop.
A mix of 3 & 5 gives off some 5k and 3k light but its largely 4k.

Lou66 · Dec 15, 2023

Star Dog said:
Based on nothing but a vague picture in my mind lol.

Straight 4k is 4k only full stop.
A mix of 3 & 5 gives off some 5k and 3k light but its largely 4k.

No, the emissions from the LED mix and what the plant "sees" is just the mix and you can't backtrack it.

Tolerance Break · Dec 15, 2023

I use PAR readings (lux converted to par because I spend too much on seeds) along with EC over time and plant heath to tell me were to make adjustments. It's not an exact science, but it saves me a ton of guesswork

SB85 · Dec 15, 2023

I feel some get caught up in optional gadgets and other stuff and believe they are 100% needed to grow a plant. Have fun and grow the best damn herb that's possible / enjoy doing It your way.

Weather Report · Dec 15, 2023

If Dr. Dre just used meters to mix up his songs, you would never have heard about him. The real measurement tool is his ears, despite the fact he has a hundred of small monitors and VU's in front of him.
A pilot will be able to land a plane using just his instruments after thousands of hours flying.

The physics of light waves are a very advanced physics subject. You don't learn this from half-hour videos on YouTube. But the psychology of marketing applied to sales knows very well how to make everyone think they are smart and know what they are measuring.
Reading results on a device and comparing them to a table is not exactly science.
They took bro science to another level.
Yes, I know you have a meter.

Star Dog · Dec 15, 2023

Idk the last time I picked up a light meter?
When I did use it I bleached them, I guess no one told the plants how much light they should be taking.

Is PAR Just Another Gimmick?

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