Is pruning relative to growth.

Sorry about the title, it's a hard question to ask in a few words.

What I am asking is..... Is pruning and its negative effects, relative to area pruned. If the main cola is stripped of all fan leaves, will it effect the whole plant or just the main cola. All other foliage is left (fairly big plant). The reason I ask is that the main cola is often carrying the biggest leaves and covers other bud sites.

It will stress the whole plant to cut it on any part.
It will also divert energy from the rest of the plant to compensate for the leafs you remove.

There is no need to remove leafs and it will always do more harm than good

dl290485 said:

It will stress the whole plant to cut it on any part.
It will also divert energy from the rest of the plant to compensate for the leafs you remove.

There is no need to remove leafs and it will always do more harm than good

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With all due respect, are you applying your own common sense or have seen or done any trials. The reason I am asking is one of my grows is a pretty large SCROG and am losing alot of leaves daily on the underside where no light penetrates. No yellowing, just dropping off. Lollipopping is long complete.

I made a mistake with my timing to flip and got myself some heavy foliage growth, and I mean heavy. So whilst the main colas are happy as pigs in shit all the slightly lower growth is being starved of light. My thoughts are if they are losing so much lower growth, pruning the large colas will allow more light penetration and in turn less loss of lower growth.

I decided to trial it myself. Half the scrog I have stripped the fan leaves from the main colas and left the other half. Instantly I can see the exposed bud sites have more than doubled.

This is the underside. with 2 600's above nothing gets through at all.

A couple of shots of untouched side.

And a couple of the colas stripped.

Will update as regular as I can.

FYI..... F&D, 2 x 600w HPS. End of week 3 flower of 8. Dutch pro feed.

You asked if it had a negative effect on the plant in general- yes it will stress it in general no matter where you cut it. But that stress isn't going to be the worst thing in the world and obviously won't make it curl up and die or anything.

Forgetting about the stress, which is easy to do, you have to look at the leafs for what they are- solar panels. Think about solar panels on a roof. Say you need 8 to run at optimal level and have lots of energy, but 2 of them are positioned in a spot that they are blocking the others... So if you rip off the two in the way, you may let light onto the ones it's blocking... but you only have 6 solar panels left now (when all 8 was the magic number to be optimal energy).

I say you are in a bit of a lose-lose situation right now. You'll have to figure which loss is going to be worse.

Here are some points to consider:

* The terminal bud is always the best. It has a hormone preference within the plant. This is worth considering if you are going to de-defoliate it because you may be trying to open up more energy to lower buds... which never had the drive to become big buds and therefore you'll end up with no prime spot (because the terminal bud is depleted).

* The plant transfers energy. That means that even with the terminal bud with a growing preference, energy it generates through photosynthesis can be distributed to other parts of the plant. So in a way, the top bud that's blocking a lower bud may still be feeding it energy.

* Every leaf you lose is a lost energy generator. Leaf loss to some extent is pretty much inevitable on a big plant but it really should be kept to a minimum. Ideally the shape you grow the plant into will have all the leafs and the budding sites in a good spot so nothing goes to waste. If you ever find yourself deciding it's best to cut a leaf- realize you have messed up to get to that point and it's a desperate measure.

Looking at those photo's, if I wasn't concerned about humidity and air flow problems I definitely would prefer the un-stripped colas. I totally imagined it being a different story than how those photos are. I thought you had some branches up high and whole lower branches below them being blocked... not mostly uniform but long colas!

I'll have to check back on this when you update.

dl290485 said:

You asked if it had a negative effect on the plant in general- yes it will stress it in general no matter where you cut it. But that stress isn't going to be the worst thing in the world and obviously won't make it curl up and die or anything.

I think you mis-understood my question." Is pruning and its negative effects, relative to area pruned". I know what fan leaves are and what they do. I am asking if I trim a cola fan leaves, will it effect that colas development directly or have a general effect on the plant as a whole.

Forgetting about the stress, which is easy to do, you have to look at the leafs for what they are- solar panels. Think about solar panels on a roof. Say you need 8 to run at optimal level and have lots of energy, but 2 of them are positioned in a spot that they are blocking the others... So if you rip off the two in the way, you may let light onto the ones it's blocking... but you only have 6 solar panels left now (when all 8 was the magic number to be optimal energy).

Do the 8 fans leaves on the said cola feed that cola directly or does the plant as a whole need eg 100 fan leaves to grow an optimal levels.

I say you are in a bit of a lose-lose situation right now. You'll have to figure which loss is going to be worse.

Here are some points to consider:

* The terminal bud is always the best. It has a hormone preference within the plant. This is worth considering if you are going to de-defoliate it because you may be trying to open up more energy to lower buds... which never had the drive to become big buds and therefore you'll end up with no prime spot (because the terminal bud is depleted).

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't scrog create multiple terminal buds from what would normally be smaller lower bud sites due to bending.

* The plant transfers energy. That means that even with the terminal bud with a growing preference, energy it generates through photosynthesis can be distributed to other parts of the plant. So in a way, the top bud that's blocking a lower bud may still be feeding it energy.

I get what your saying but without light the energy generated and sent around the plant is irrelavent, the buds will not develope.

* Every leaf you lose is a lost energy generator. Leaf loss to some extent is pretty much inevitable on a big plant but it really should be kept to a minimum. Ideally the shape you grow the plant into will have all the leafs and the budding sites in a good spot so nothing goes to waste. If you ever find yourself deciding it's best to cut a leaf- realize you have messed up to get to that point and it's a desperate measure.

A plant left to its own devices will grow to a naturally beneficial shape for maximum growth, there is nothing natural about a scrog though.

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Thanx for your input by the way

dl290485 said:

Looking at those photo's, if I wasn't concerned about humidity and air flow problems I definitely would prefer the un-stripped colas. I totally imagined it being a different story than how those photos are. I thought you had some branches up high and whole lower branches below them being blocked... not mostly uniform but long colas!

I'll have to check back on this when you update.

Click to expand...

I have been trying to think of an easier way to expain what I am getting at?

If you have 5 solar panels on your roof and each panel creates 1kw. so 5 panels will create 5 kw. Now add a 6th panel in front of those 5 panels in direct line with the sunlight. That panel now casts a shadow over 2 of the lower panels. Total output from 6 panels is now 4kw instead of 6kw. by adding more panels you are reducing energy created. Does this make any sense.

MrMeanGreen said:

I think you mis-understood my question." Is pruning and its negative effects, relative to area pruned". I know what fan leaves are and what they do. I am asking if I trim a cola fan leaves, will it effect that colas development directly or have a general effect on the plant as a whole.

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My answer was saying "yes" to your question. Yes it stresses all the plant. Yes it reduces the total energy potential for all of the plant.

MrMeanGreen said:

Do the 8 fans leafs on the said cola feed that cola directly or does the plant as a whole need eg 100 fan leaves to grow an optimal levels.

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They feed the whole plant- not just the branch or node they are attached to. You ended up cutting leafs from the same branch because they came from a higher node- as far as I know the energy those leafs would of generated would definitely of provided for the buds on the lower nodes and also for the plant in general.

MrMeanGreen said:

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't scrog create multiple terminal buds from what would normally be smaller lower bud sites due to bending.

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Scrog is something you do during vegetating period for a start. By bending or cutting the terminal bud, you promote shooting out of the lower nodes. It's to make an even canopy of branches to bring to flower. You don't cut fan leafs to produce the effect- you remove the terminal bud to create a hormone response, not open light up. To clarify that statement more, it's not the increased light that makes the plant bush out, it's the hormone response from the training/pruning.
This is not the same as having a single branch- which is already flowering so no longer shooting new buds (growing tips) out of nodes- and cutting off fan leafs to try to stimulate further growth in flowers growing out of it's lower nodes. By removing the leafs, no new flowers will start to grow- so it can't be compared to the vegging stage of scrog where a bend or topping can produce new branches out of dormant budding sites on nodes. So it comes down to trade off- how many leafs can you unblock by cutting one? If you cut one leaf to unblock only 1, that's no gain at all... if you cut 1 leaf and 3 get good light, you triple your energy... but how would 1 leaf block 3 completely? etc
I say the answer to that question is what ever grows best on top of an even canopy is all that you can ask for. If your branches are too tall and the lower bit goes to waste.. that's the cost of indoor lighting right? No skin off your nose because the full yield is right there for you in your even canopy right? Most it would hurt you was maybe thinking you could of vegged a bit less but the end flowering weight will be the same. As you said, the irrelevant undergrowth will just die or not develop.

MrMeanGreen said:

A plant left to its own devices will grow to a naturally beneficial shape for maximum growth, there is nothing natural about a scrog though.

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I have no idea what you mean by that. You aren't gene manipulating it or anything- you are facilitating it's natural features with some simple training. Just because a plant has developed several terminal buds it doesn't mean it develops a new relationship with light or leafs.

You actually have it backwards...growth is relative to pruning when it comes to indoors.

MrMeanGreen said:

I have been trying to think of an easier way to expain what I am getting at?

If you have 5 solar panels on your roof and each panel creates 1kw. so 5 panels will create 5 kw. Now add a 6th panel in front of those 5 panels in direct line with the sunlight. That panel now casts a shadow over 2 of the lower panels. Total output from 6 panels is now 4kw instead of 6kw. by adding more panels you are reducing energy created. Does this make any sense.

Click to expand...

Yep I do get ya. In a reply I wrote before this I mention something similar.
I just don't get how 1 leaf is going to block another 5 leafs completely. That would mean they are all in a line... so taking the first leaf off would only reveal the second... which then blocks all the rest still right? So zero gain in energy but a leaf missing from a higher priority (hormone wise) part of the plant
And the further you go down the tree with leafs defoliated from the top, the less the light intensity arrives (dropping off roughly 50% with every 1 foot to the next)

dl290485 said:

Yep I do get ya. In a reply I wrote before this I mention something similar.
I just don't get how 1 leaf is going to block another 5 leafs completely. That would mean they are all in a line... so taking the first leaf off would only reveal the second... which then blocks all the rest still right? So zero gain in energy but a leaf missing from a higher priority (hormone wise) part of the plant
And the further you go down the tree with leafs defoliated from the top, the less the light intensity arrives (dropping off roughly 50% with every 1 foot to the next)

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I am obviously not explaining properly. When I stopped training my plants they had a nice even canopy. I made the mistake of letting them go for another week.... big mistake. All older more developed branches shot up 6-8 inches. As a result I now have 2 tears of bud sites in an over populated space, the majority of tops are in the second layer. The top tear is taking all the light and racing off leaving the sceond tear with less and less light / growth. I want to or rather have, stripped the top 8 inches of fan leaf from the taller branches thus exposing the lower buds and allowing more light deeper into the plants where I was losing handfuls of fan leaves every day because there was zero light penetration.

No offense dl290485, but your clearly not speaking from experience, so your input is more... Theoretical. The things your saying only applies to small plants, large plants need the type of care the OP is asking about.

yes you should strip large fan leaves from the top of your plant, you are correct when you say they block light from other nodes. The buds photosynthasize as well so assuming you have plenty of bud sites your fine, also remember how no light is getting threw the canapy? That means none is being wasted, or could be wasted by removing some of the "upper solar panels" being you have 50 solar panels below them.

It seems like you already found out for yourself that removing fan leaves from the top helped your plant, but I wanted to confirm for you that you did the right thing and IMO all large plants need it done simi regularly.

Also light Doesent lose anything to distance as you implied... It spreads out and since his distance from canapy to bulb is not changing all light energy is still harvested. Energy can not be created or destroyed, re-read the inverse square law and how light really works, as a wave.

MrMeanGreen said:

If the main cola is stripped of all fan leaves, will it effect the whole plant or just the main cola. All other foliage is left (fairly big plant). The reason I ask is that the main cola is often carrying the biggest leaves and covers other bud sites.

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Removing any producing leaf, no matter where it's located, will negatively affect the plant. It's simple botany, science. R and FR light will penetrate through the canopy/leaves.

Folks, do some research and lurk. These issues have been discussed dozens of times regarding lollipopping, removing fan leaves and such. That's what the Search feature if for.

UB

growingforfun said:

No offense dl290485, but your clearly not speaking from experience, so your input is more... Theoretical. The things your saying only applies to small plants, large plants need the type of care the OP is asking about.

yes you should strip large fan leaves from the top of your plant, you are correct when you say they block light from other nodes. The buds photosynthasize as well so assuming you have plenty of bud sites your fine, also remember how no light is getting threw the canapy? That means none is being wasted, or could be wasted by removing some of the "upper solar panels" being you have 50 solar panels below them.

It seems like you already found out for yourself that removing fan leaves from the top helped your plant, but I wanted to confirm for you that you did the right thing and IMO all large plants need it done simi regularly.

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Yeah, "no offense" and speaking from experience. but that is total crap.

growingforfun said:

no offense dl290485, but your clearly not speaking from experience, so your input is more... Theoretical. The things your saying only applies to small plants, large plants need the type of care the op is asking about.

Yes you should strip large fan leaves from the top of your plant, you are correct when you say they block light from other nodes. The buds photosynthasize as well so assuming you have plenty of bud sites your fine, also remember how no light is getting threw the canapy? That means none is being wasted, or could be wasted by removing some of the "upper solar panels" being you have 50 solar panels below them.

It seems like you already found out for yourself that removing fan leaves from the top helped your plant, but i wanted to confirm for you that you did the right thing and imo all large plants need it done simi regularly.

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some large plants no leaves removed c99 at 5 weeks flower


Leaves fuel the growth of bud...period

You can't really blame them though. All the hype and "experienced" growers say that these techniques must be done to get a decent crop. Hell, when I first started growing this winter, I thought "man, cannabis is a hell of a lot harder to grow than anything I've ever attempted." I wondered how cannabis ever made it without becoming extinct if it needed all this damn help and had to be beat into submission. The plant is apparently is own worst enemy.

But what can you really expect new growers to think when that is the majority of the info out there? You have to really read and search around and talk to people before you find anyone that says... "you don't have to flush organic". You must search even longer to find someone that says "you don't have to flush at all". Even the cannabis "bibles", of which I have none, apparently say to mutilate your plant for best results. If it didn't seem odd and counter intuitive to me, then I probably wouldn't have questioned it much easier. I had a little experience under my belt, a lot of these new guys don't.

You're a big help to all of us, I hope you don't lose patience with us and leave as we keep asking the same questions and coming to you with the same stupid assumptions. I do wish more people would do a proper search though. I have better luck googling answers than I do using the search on here. I usually enter " question rollitup" in the google search.

I'm hardheaded people told me don't defoliate,I had to see.
Man bud sites started coming from everywhere,so did leaves,I mean leaves out the ying-yang.
I got 2 NL the one I did not take to many leaves from,just a few,it's starting to get sticky now.
The other 1 stalled out for awhile looks like it started back growing now.
I will not do it again.First time I ever grew NL I never seen so many leaves.
I don't believe I want any more NL to many leaves.Peace

Sir.Ganga said:

removed

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Yep mr pro grower here showing off a stick