Is the Keystone cancelation a good thing?

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Just curious how everyone feels about the pipeline being canceled. Is it going to lower emissions or is it just optics? I think it will mostly be optics in regards to the global warming reductions but still optics can be good thing.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Just curious how everyone feels about the pipeline being canceled. Is it going to lower emissions or is it just optics? I think it will mostly be optics in regards to the global warming reductions but still optics can be good thing.
I always thought of it as a problem that it cuts right through Native American's land and leaks and whatnot causing environmental messes.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30103078
Screen Shot 2021-01-23 at 8.29.49 AM.png
The pipeline had been projected to carry oil nearly 1,200 miles (1,900km) from the Canadian province of Alberta down to Nebraska, to join an existing pipeline.

Environmentalists and Native American groups have fought the project for more than a decade.

Development of the pipeline was blocked by the Obama administration in 2015, but President Trump overturned that order and allowed it go ahead.

What is Keystone XL?

A planned 1,179-mile (1,897km) pipeline running from the oil sands of Alberta, Canada, to Steele City, Nebraska, where it would join an existing pipe. It could carry 830,000 barrels of oil each day.

It would mirror an existing pipe, also called Keystone, but would take a more direct route, boosting the flow of oil from Canada.

A section running south from Cushing in Oklahoma to the Gulf of Mexico opened in January 2014. At the coast there are additional refineries and ports from which the oil can be exported.

The pipeline was set to be privately financed, with the cost of construction shared between TransCanada, an energy company based in Calgary, Alberta, and other oil shippers. US-produced oil would also be transported by Keystone XL, albeit in smaller quantities than Canadian.

Screen Shot 2021-01-23 at 8.30.02 AM.png

Why did the US and Canada want XL?

Canada already sends 550,000 barrels of oil per day to the US via the existing Keystone pipeline. The oil fields in Alberta are landlocked and as they are further developed require means of access to international markets. Many of North America's oil refineries are based in the Gulf Coast, and industry groups on both sides of the border want to benefit.

An increased supply of oil from Canada would mean a decreased dependency on Middle Eastern supplies.
According to market principles, increased availability of oil means lower prices for consumers.

Mr Trump said the project would create 28,000 construction jobs.

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had also supported the pipeline and said "we are disappointed but acknowledge the president's decision" to cancel the permit to build it.

Screen Shot 2021-01-23 at 8.31.05 AM.pngScreen Shot 2021-01-23 at 8.31.12 AM.png
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
I always thought of it as a problem that it cuts right through Native American's land and leaks and whatnot causing environmental messes.
I agree that the indigenous peoples should have a huge say in the proposed routes and if they don’t want it on their lands that should be respected. I’m on the fence about the safety as long as the alternate method is by rail. Not sure if one is safer than the other. That’s where the optics come in. The oil is still flowing (150 million barrels per day) but if not in a pipe it’s above ground :(. I have a rail line near here that has level crossings and the wait can be up to 10 minutes while 100’s of tankers roll by :(.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
I agree that the indigenous peoples should have a huge say in the proposed routes and if they don’t want it on their lands that should be respected. I’m on the fence about the safety as long as the alternate method is by rail. Not sure if one is safer than the other. That’s where the optics come in. The oil is still flowing (150 million barrels per day) but if not in a pipe it’s above ground :(. I have a rail line near here that has level crossings and the wait can be up to 10 minutes while 100’s of tankers roll by :(.
The cancellation of the pipeline could be seen as more than just optics if you consider Biden is making an attempt to move the country away from fossil fuel dependency. If he is moderately successful and there is a significant move towards renewable energy, the pipeline could become obsolete.

The issue with the pipeline running through indigenous lands is significant as well.
 

injinji

Well-Known Member
My take is we should cut out as much of the tar sands oil as possible. The extraction and refining is much more carbon dense than say West Texas. And with the price so low right now, they are just barely at the break even point. I heard a report last night on NPR saying there is not enough demand to keep the pipeline full right now anyway. The idea when it was first planned was to ship out of Port Arthur TX (duty free) to China and the rest of the world. Now most Canadian oil is refined and used in the US.

But I've been saying for years I wish we would tax gas to at least five bucks a gallon. The high fuel taxes in Europe has led to amazing fuel efficiency in motor vehicles. No reason we can't do the same.
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
I laugh at the GOP saying Biden is gonna kill 1000 jobs.
first off, how many of them are canadian?
second, if trump had responded like other countries to the virus, our unemployment would be much less. way more than 1000 would be back at work right now.
third, i believe it would go over the Ogallala aquifer which is one of if not the biggest in the US
 

topcat

Well-Known Member
I laugh at the GOP saying Biden is gonna kill 1000 jobs.
first off, how many of them are canadian?
second, if trump had responded like other countries to the virus, our unemployment would be much less. way more than 1000 would be back at work right now.
third, i believe it would go over the Ogallala aquifer which is one of if not the biggest in the US
A thousand jobs? Well, "do something different", as Iskanka says. Maybe hawk canned beans.
 

injinji

Well-Known Member
A thousand jobs? Well, "do something different", as Iskanka says. Maybe hawk canned beans.
I live close to the Apalachicola National Forrest. Back in the 80's or 90's there was a big uproar here about an owl or woodpecker stopping logging. My reply to anyone who bitched about it, "what did all the buffalo skinners do when there were no more buffalo? They did something else."

 

printer

Well-Known Member
I am one to for us to move away from oil as fast as possible. But what is going to replace it? Renewables are well and fine but our societies are energy hogs. Most of the people that say we can ween ourselves off of it do not show how much infrastructure needs to be produced to do it. I would be surprised if we could do it by 2050.

On the pipeline. There is less oil spilled by pipelines than by rail. When I see the tanker cars I see exploding bombs rolling by. And it is worse on the US side as the oil being produced is mainly by fracking. Fracking produces a light oil with a lot of gas in it, not the in your vehicle tank gas but propane and the like. It is the more volatile and explosive stuff rolling by. As for the Canadian stuff, it is more thicker. In fact, to move it through the pipes it has to be diluted. But the weight of the Canadian oil is desired at the Gulf refineries. They were designed to operate with the type of oil being pumped out of the ground at the time. There is a lot of oil being produced in the US but it is too light a grade for the refineries to operate efficiently.

So the Canadian oil is mixed in to bring it into spec. It is then refined and used in the US or exported. So the statement that it just allows Canadian oil to get out into the world market is true. But in its raw state it would not command much of a price. And that is where the refineries come in. They take both oils and when done they add value to both. So the US's balance sheet is less red, your selling stuff to the Chinese rather than only buying. The refineries can do without Canadian oil but they need to buy heavy oil from other countries, Venezuela has the same grade of oil the refineries mix in. So they can buy from Canada or Venezuela.

So pick where you want to buy from, Canada that has a balanced trade with the US (part due to the fact we sell the oil to you, a billion dollars goes across the border in trade every day) or to Venezuela that is not one of the US's biggest customer. Canada and the US trade is greater than the US and China, although Canada buys as much from the US as it sells, China's balance sheet has them buying a fraction.

So what will happen if the pipeline does not happen? The oil will still move by rail, the Gulf refineries need it. Canada will then need to twin the pipeline we have going to British Columbia. The oil will not get refined there, the cost of building a new refinery will never be recouped. The Chinese can justify it because then they can buy oil from Canada or other countries and not be beholden to the Middle East or the Us for refined products. So this oil game will still go on for quite a while. China even bought a 15% stake in the production in Alberta. And it is mainly American money that owns the oil patch up there. We allowed them to come in as a part of NAFTA, we got access to the US market but American companies could come in and buy up our companies. I did lose my job due to NAFTA coming in and a lot of sister plants closing and being supplied from the US ones. I went back to school to start a new career. I know a little of the oil refining end, my trade was in process controls, oil refining as one facet of it. So I know that the oil will flow with the pipeline or not. It is just going to send more carbon up in the air moving it by rail rather than pumping it.
 
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Grandpapy

Well-Known Member
Logistics say Russia needs to fuel the "one road China". Otherwise we will hitchhiking to that "freeway".

Chinese buyers snap up U.S. oil purchases at widest ...
www.reuters.com › article › us-global-oil-usa-china › c...

Apr 1, 2020 — China has increased U.S. crude purchases with some buyers ... FILE PHOTO: Pump jacks operate in front of a drilling rig in an oil field in ...

Texas fears losing oil-rich lands in Chinese takeover of ...
www.foxbusiness.com › markets › texas-oil-rich-lands-chi...

May 16, 2020 — The companies' vulnerability to foreign buyers raises the risk that the U.S. ... Chinese acquisitions of U.S. oil and gas companies have faced ...

Chinese company to buy Texas oil fields in $1.3 billion deal
money.cnn.com › 2015/10/26 › news › companies › ch...

Oct 26, 2015 — A Chinese investment firm is shelling out $1.3 billion to buy giant oil fields ... Many smaller Chinese oil and gas companies are looking for deals ...
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I am one to for us to move away from oil as fast as possible. But what is going to replace it? Renewables are well and fine but our societies are energy hogs. Most of the people that say we can ween ourselves off of it do not show how much infrastructure needs to be produced to do it. I would be surprised if we could do it by 2050.

On the pipeline. There is less oil spilled by pipelines than by rail. When I see the tanker cars I see exploding bombs rolling by. And it is worse on the US side as the oil being produced is mainly by fracking. Fracking produces a light oil with a lot of gas in it, not the in your vehicle tank gas but propane and the like. It is the more volatile and explosive stuff rolling by. As for the Canadian stuff, it is more thicker. In fact, to move it through the pipes it has to be diluted. But the weight of the Canadian oil is desired at the Gulf refineries. They were designed to operate with the type of oil being pumped out of the ground at the time. There is a lot of oil being produced in the US but it is too light a grade for the refineries to operate efficiently.

So the Canadian oil is mixed in to bring it into spec. It is then refined and used in the US or exported. So the statement that it just allows Canadian oil to get out into the world market is true. But in its raw state it would not command much of a price. And that is where the refineries come in. They take both oils and when done they add value to both. So the US's balance sheet is less red, your selling stuff to the Chinese rather than only buying. The refineries can do without Canadian oil but they need to buy heavy oil from other countries, Venezuela has the same grade of oil the refineries mix in. So they can buy from Canada or Venezuela.

So pick where you want to buy from, Canada that has a balanced trade with the US (part due to the fact we sell the oil to you, a billion dollars goes across the border in trade every day) or to Venezuela that is not one of the US's biggest customer. Canada and the US trade is greater than the US and China, although Canada buys as much from the US as it sells, China's balance sheet has them buying a fraction.

So what will happen if the pipeline does not happen? The oil will still move by rail, the Gulf refineries need it. Canada will then need to twin the pipeline we have going to British Columbia. The oil will not get refined there, the cost of building a new refinery will never be recouped. The Chinese can justify it because then they can buy oil from Canada or other countries and not be beholden to the Middle East or the Us for refined products. So this oil game will still go on for quite a while. China even bought a 15% stake in the production in Alberta. And it is mainly American money that owns the oil patch up there. We allowed them to come in as a part of NAFTA, we got access to the US market but American companies could come in and buy up our companies. I did lose my job due to NAFTA coming in and a lot of sister plants closing and being supplied from the US ones. I went back to school to start a new career. I know a little of the oil refining end, my trade was in process controls, oil refining as one facet of it. So I know that the oil will flow with the pipeline or not. It is just going to send more carbon up in the air moving it by rail rather than pumping it.
Here in Oregon, we have had some spills and at least one explosion when rail cars carrying fuel went off the rails. But nothing like this:

Keystone Pipeline Spills 383,000 Gallons of Oil into North Dakota Wetlands
The spill was reported just hours after a key environmental assessment hearing on plans for another controversial pipeline, Keystone XL.


“When we are talking about what could happen or the risk that is posed by oil spills, we have yet another illustration here in North Dakota about what can happen,” said Catherine Collentine, associate director of the Sierra Club’s Beyond Dirty Fuels Initiative. “It’s something that we need to be looking very closely at given the number of water crossings and the route of the proposed Keystone XL pipeline.”


Every time a large project like the XL pipeline is advanced, we are bombarded by how much care and safety precautions are being taken. Then, after the spill, we are told that nothing is completely safe. There are a number of water crossings and environmentally sensitive areas that the pipeline crosses. Does the US really need this oil that much?
 

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
Logistics say Russia needs to fuel the "one road China". Otherwise we will hitchhiking to that "freeway".

Chinese buyers snap up U.S. oil purchases at widest ...
www.reuters.com › article › us-global-oil-usa-china › c...

Apr 1, 2020 — China has increased U.S. crude purchases with some buyers ... FILE PHOTO: Pump jacks operate in front of a drilling rig in an oil field in ...
Texas fears losing oil-rich lands in Chinese takeover of ...
www.foxbusiness.com › markets › texas-oil-rich-lands-chi...

May 16, 2020 — The companies' vulnerability to foreign buyers raises the risk that the U.S. ... Chinese acquisitions of U.S. oil and gas companies have faced ...

Chinese company to buy Texas oil fields in $1.3 billion deal
money.cnn.com › 2015/10/26 › news › companies › ch...

Oct 26, 2015 — A Chinese investment firm is shelling out $1.3 billion to buy giant oil fields ... Many smaller Chinese oil and gas companies are looking for deals ...
Even the Saudis are trying to shift investments into greener assets. The largest pork grower and processor is chinese. In dayton ohio one of the largest auto glass companies is chinese. Russia runs one of the largest aluminum foundries here in the states. If you have the expertise and the capital there are plenty of manufacturers willing to sell. They are not patriotic. Well except to benjamin franklins...
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Do we need the oil so much? Look around you, everything has been transported in some way. Buildings that have been built, the roads are made of it, all built using oil to drive the machinery. Again, we need to ween ourselves from it but in the next 25 years it will still be a major source of power. All manufacturing leaves a dirty trail unless we go back to only using wood products and streams for power. The US can go back to importing its oil from the Saudis, you did in the past. And that is why the oilsands in Alberta were developed, because we wanted energy independence from the Middle East. Before fracking Canada was the US's way out from the Arabs holding an oil well to America's head.



Right now renewables are 11.5%. Got a long way to go. But you could help by not driving your car, skip all the unnecessary trips. I take my bine as much as I can. I have a car I bought in 2016, it has 22,000 km on the odometer. So 13,700 miles on it in four years. Heck, the car can last me the rest of my life. I am walking the walk, I made the conscious decision years ago that I will not be that big a part of the problem. I do heat the house with natural gas, we have mainly hydroelectric power in my province. And we are willing to sell it to you, but natural gas is cheap due to fracking so not much call for our power.

I doubt there are many people that would go to my lengths of taking a small slice out of this planet. Coming from the resource extraction and manufacturing industry I have an idea what the real costs are to our 'stuff'. Our economy would be smaller if we lived with less, that would upset the apple cart though. Our money system is built on growth. I myself want to leave a small footprint on the Earth. Not that many that think about it.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It depends. It's like fracking. If you live near areas that frack and your water table becomes unusable then you'd be pissed. But if I owned fracking stock and lived away from fracking then let it rip.... Capitalism
Do we need the oil so much? Look around you, everything has been transported in some way. Buildings that have been built, the roads are made of it, all built using oil to drive the machinery. Again, we need to ween ourselves from it but in the next 25 years it will still be a major source of power. All manufacturing leaves a dirty trail unless we go back to only using wood products and streams for power. The US can go back to importing its oil from the Saudis, you did in the past. And that is why the oilsands in Alberta were developed, because we wanted energy independence from the Middle East. Before fracking Canada was the US's way out from the Arabs holding an oil well to America's head.



Right now renewables are 11.5%. Got a long way to go. But you could help by not driving your car, skip all the unnecessary trips. I take my bine as much as I can. I have a car I bought in 2016, it has 22,000 km on the odometer. So 13,700 miles on it in four years. Heck, the car can last me the rest of my life. I am walking the walk, I made the conscious decision years ago that I will not be that big a part of the problem. I do heat the house with natural gas, we have mainly hydroelectric power in my province. And we are willing to sell it to you, but natural gas is cheap due to fracking so not much call for our power.

I doubt there are many people that would go to my lengths of taking a small slice out of this planet. Coming from the resource extraction and manufacturing industry I have an idea what the real costs are to our 'stuff'. Our economy would be smaller if we lived with less, that would upset the apple cart though. Our money system is built on growth. I myself want to leave a small footprint on the Earth. Not that many that think about it.
I have no complaint with how Canada's economy is dependent on it's oil business. I just don't agree that US rivers, sensitive environmental areas and violating native American tribal sovereignty should have a lower status than that oil. Canada has a problem with getting its oil to market. We don't want that pipeline, so look for a different solution.

I don't buy the "but rail cars are more dangerous" argument either. It's all about getting oil to refineries for the lowest cost, more profit for the multinational corporation, yay. When the inevitable disaster occurs, they will leave the bill for generations to come to pay.

I can tell you all I do to cut my fossil fuel footprint but I won't. As you point out, what a person can cut through their own lifestyle choices is a drop in the bucket compared to the consumption of our industrial and consumer goods sectors.

Also, who thinks tomatoes shipped from Chile are worth the fuel cost? Those pallid and tasteless pink blobs should be named something else.
 
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injinji

Well-Known Member
Do we need the oil so much? Look around you, everything has been transported in some way. Buildings that have been built, the roads are made of it, all built using oil to drive the machinery. Again, we need to ween ourselves from it but in the next 25 years it will still be a major source of power. All manufacturing leaves a dirty trail unless we go back to only using wood products and streams for power. . . . . . .
Burning wood for fuel is one of the dirtiest forms of energy. Of the carbon based fuels, natural gas is the cleanest.
 
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