Is there documentation that flushing accomplishes anything?

Illegal Smile

Illegal Smile

Well-Known Member
I read so much on this but never see any links or references to any data. Is there anything scientific where anyone with some real credentials has commented on it? I would think anyone in botany or plant science would be able to say immediately whether flushing gets anything out of buds that affects taste. And hopefully, they'd be able explain exactly how a flush does that.

I have to doubt the logic of flushing. But I want to be open-minded to evidence, not just folk wisdom.
 
robert 14617

robert 14617

Well-Known Member
i never choke mine with nutes to begin with i may not get that extra gram out of my grow but i 'm not over loading the plant with salts either so i never bother flushing
 
Izoc666

Izoc666

Well-Known Member
I dont know if anyone is willing to do the document about flush or non flush method....as for me, i dont have much time to do the project...im pretty sure everyone have been expriemented with the flush method once or twice under their belts...as for myself...i never read or hear about flush while i was young, ingorant grower...and still got dank and tasty bud...till several years later i started hear about flush method...i just simply cant tell the difference..its all about the drying and curing proper way.
 
dbkick

dbkick

Well-Known Member
One way to verify would be do a side by side grow, flush one and not the other, see what happens. I did have a couple plants that got no flush at all , the ash seemed to burn a little more black but other than that it was some nice smoke.
 
W

wbd

Well-Known Member
People that flush swear it improves taste and smoke.

So how would you even go about documenting something so subjective?

It's like documenting the existence of god...
 
GreatwhiteNorth

GreatwhiteNorth

Global Moderator
Staff member
Flushing is actually unnecessary.
The following is a post originally put up by Riddle. I apologize for its length, but I decided if I'm going to plagiarize a professional, I'd just go whole-hog.

The Truth About Flushing

There have been a lot of debates on this forum about flushing and there is a lot of misunderstanding about it in general flushing has its place in gardening and in the real world (other than MJ forums) is referred to as leeching

This will be a long read but I hope it will set the record straight for everyone, this has been posted in several places here but I am putting to post together to clear things up a bit for all of you

first a ditty from Sensi Seeds with links verifying,,,

From an administrator at Sensi Seeds

"Advanced - Flushing

A critical look at preharvest flushing

Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.

The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.

Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:

A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.

Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.

The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

http://www.sidwell.edu

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

http://www.sirinet.net

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.


Summary:

Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."



Now with an actual botanical understanding of how this works we move on to yet another botanical proven fact that if plants are drowned, which occurs in nature in the form of floods they go into a survival fermentaion mode converting sugars into alcohol I am reposting my ditty on harvesting and curing so you can see the evidence of this,,,,,,,,,,,,

Harvesting, Drying and Curing, A Research Study

The first word we used for this research was Oxidation, the second word is Fermentation as the fermentation process is what makes "the cure" work so understanding the fermentation process is very important.

Here at RIU there is a thread that includes a cut and paste from a book by Mel and Ed you all know I like Mels book I am not gonna paste it here as it is fairly long and this will be long enough as it is, but this same info appears on most every MJ forum and seems to be the basis for how we all cure today. It seems from my research that this was originally based on how tobaco is cured and we will get into that later, here is the RIU link to this info I advise you go read it then come back,,,,,,,,

Harvesting Curing Drying - Take Back the Knowledge

There is an old hippie growers myth that says to soak the roots in water for 3 to 10 days before harvest this is not to be confused with the flush that everyone talks about (you all know I don't flush before harvest, I flush always) the tip/myth is supposed to improve the quality of our smoke. I have to admit that I never paid it much attention until now because I have now proven it is not a myth and has some scientific validation.

What it amounts to is a way to start the cure prior to harvest while the plant is still alive. This is an incredible find as far as I am concerned and I can not wait to try it. what it amounts to is starving the plant of oxygen by drowning it, if in hydro take away the bubbles or spray fill the tank with water and wait, if in a pot either continuously water it (keep it wet/soaked) or stick the pot in a bigger bucket of water.

I need to add some background info as I'm getting ahead of myself, most of you know that if you add sugar and yeast together it ferments into alcohol giving off CO2. The basic definition of Fermentation is the act of breaking down sugars into alcohol and our plants do this internally thru a natural process even while growing. The act of fermentation is a oxidation/reduction process (explained in prior post) just as most plant functions seem to be. Also please be aware that N is needed for proper fermintation to take place.

Here is the info I found verifying that this old hippie myth is real,,,,,

MrMistery wrote>:(jules

Plants use photosynthesis to make sugars out of water, CO2 and sunlight. But a plant cell (like any other cell) cannot use sugars for their cellular processes, it needs to break down the sugars and make ATP. Basically, the only difference between humans and plants in this chapter is that plants make their own sugars, while we get ours from food. But we still both need to use those sugars, and we do that through cellular respiration.

@douglebod
Fermentation is strictly defined as any way of anaerobically degrade pyruvic acid and recycle NAD+ to keep glycolysis going. You can then categorize this process as lactic acid fermentation (where pyruvate accepts electrons from NADH directly and becomes lactate), alcoholic fermentation (where pyruvate is first decarboxylated to acetaldehyde which then accepts electrons from NADH to become ethanol) and others (which are much more obscure). So technically, human cells are able to carry out lactic acid fermentation. Liver cells also have the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase (responsible for ethanol formation in yeast and other fungi), but we use it in the reverse direction so to speak to get rid of any alcohol which we consume by converting it to pyruvate.
Plants however, can carry out alcoholic fermatation. They don't normally do it, because plants are usually in contact with oxygen. However, if you flood the root of a plant for about a week the cells are starved of oxygen, and because of this they will start carrying out alcoholic fermentation to survive.

-Andrei

very true
that is what my bio textbook says.
just to complete the last part
in alcoholic pathway ethanol forms a waste while the lactate formed in the lactate pathway can be broken down further. that is what leads to the oxygen debt

found here,
http://www.biology-online.org/biolog...bout16671.html

and,


Alcoholic Fermentation In Plants

By the following, which we find in the London Gardener's Chronicle, it will be seen that the discovery is somewhat akin to those of Prof. Burrill and others in this country:
"When plants are deprived of oxygen gas it appears that alcohol is formed in all their tissues without the aid of any ferment. If a vegetable cell containing sugar be cut off from its supply of oxygen - be suffocated, in fact - the sugar it contains becomes broken up or changed into carbonic acid, alcohol, and other products. Moreover, the various alcoholic ferments only produce their effects under the same conditions. Alcoholic fermentation, then, depends solely on the suffocation of a living cell containing sugar. Starting from these ascertained facts, M. Van Tieghem, in a recent number of the Annales Agronomiques, alludes to a peculiar disease in apple trees due to a suffocation of the roots, followed by the production of alcohol in their tissues. On microscopic examination the tissues were found healthy, except the medullary rays, the cells of which, instead of containing starch or sugar, contained brown oily globules, the residue left after the formation of the alcohol, which latter is diffused throughout the root, tinging the cells of a characteristic brown color, and giving rise to an easily detected alcoholic odor.
Judging from these appearances what was the nature of the disease, M. Van Tieghem made inquiries as to the character of the soil, and from this, as well as the fact that the season had been extremely wet, his diagnosis was confirmed, and he in consequence prescribed efficient drainage as the remedy for the disease, and with good effect.



found here,
http://chestofbooks.com/gardening-ho...In-Plants.html

one more
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_gui...eId-23703.html

I am giving you this info first as it relates to doing something prior to the actual harvest chop. The rest of what I found will bring everything that we find already posted in the harvest forum to a hopefully better understanding.

We as MJ growers have modified/refined the basic knowledge of curing and fermentation of other plants due to the fact that our buds are not leaves and are therefore more subceptable to mold but the basic premise is the same, we don't add to much heat because it is known to degrade THC. We don't maintain higher humidity levels to avoid mold. The piling of the plants to induce fermentation is the same concept that makes composting work and for us home growers this is why we use a paper bag or cardboard box because it creates a scaled down compost/fermentation chamber, with this in mind pay great attention to why it is necessary to check often and rotate/rearrange the buds during this part of the process. Also know that this process will also continue once you put your buds into jars.

I also want to point out that while it is easier to trim your buds before drying that leaving the leafs on and hanging the plant allows the leafs to dry formed around the bud to protect it from various things most importantly oxidation which we know degrades the THC. It also allows the buds to dry more slowly which is what we truely want to happen.
My friend Shrubs did this on his second harvest, now I know why.

Please remember that patience is a virtue the slower they dry the better they will be,,,,,,,,period. To many growers are in a hurry and as a result speed things up once you read all of the info I am about to present you will see what I am saying is true as I have (yes I have read all of it)

Next I am going to share several MJ specific links about harvesting & curing as more heads are always better than one and the whole of all of them put together creates a pretty solid picture for us to consider as we try to improve our techniques. a couple of them even explain how to add flavors in case anyone wants to experiment a bit.

Here they are in no particular order
http://www.wietmeneer.nl/growing/haze.html

http://forum.grasscity.com/harvestin...uana-more.html

http://www.sky.org/data/grow/c21.html

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/foru...p-Ed-Rosenthal

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/ha...ng-curing.html

http://forum.sensiseeds.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5836

http://www.seedbankupdate.com/cure.htm

I am including the following links because they explain how other plants are cured in various different ways for color and taste this info will not only help us to better understand the various processes but may offer ideas for future experiments that might create a better end product. what you will see is while the techniques vary a bit they are all very similar.

Cacao (chocolate)
http://www.allchocolate.com/understa...o_factory.aspx

Tea
http://www.wtea.com/about-tea_growth.aspx

http://the-leaf.org/issue 2/wp-con...age-layout.pdf

Tobacco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco#Curing

http://books.google.com/books?id=9c8...curing&f=false

http://www.cigars4dummies.com/tobacc...ng/drying.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=4so...curing&f=false

http://chestofbooks.com/health/mater...Tinctures.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=A1I...curing&f=false

lots of other plants
http://bookshop.cabi.org/Uploads/Boo...1845933562.pdf


We're almost finished, I found a couple more things that I know will spark your DIY talents for technique tweaking LOL

Here is a homemade drying chamber
http://www.coffinails.com/curing_tobacco.html

here is a homemade fermentation chamber
http://www.instructables.com/id/Toba...er-for-cigars/

in the comments section they mention an egg incubator that has adjustable heat and humidity for around $70, here it is
https://www.gqfmfg.com/store/comersu...?idCategory=29#

and that brings us to the end of my research. I spent about 20 hours on all of this but you should be able to follow it all in just 2 or 3 since I was going thru 100's of pages to find the ones I have posted

I hope that everyone that reads this comes away with a better understanding of how it all works and that as a result we all have better herb to enjoy in the future

Happy Harvesting



Lots of us here that follow this technique have had excellent results and have found that an extended dark period of 3~4 days speeds up the drowning/fermentation process
 
Illegal Smile

Illegal Smile

Well-Known Member
What I'd like to see is something from a person with scientific credentials in botany tell me what the flush does in terms of plant physiology and why it improves taste or anything else. Do plants release something nasty back into the plain water? I don't think they do. Do plants have a hard time getting water without uptaking nutes if they don't need the nutes? I don't know, that's why I'd like to hear it from an expert. If the plain water is actually "flushing" something out of the plant, where does it get flushed to? Plus, I don't think any nutrients are stored in buds, it is stored in the roots. So how can it affect taste?

All good questions. If I could find a plant science professor that was cool enough, I'd ask him and report back.
 
C

CheapJoe

Member
Flushing is a method of drawling water into plant cells.

When a plant cell is burned, it's vacuoles have been loaded with solutes such as salt and sugar. Adding pure water which is a hypotonic solution (less solute) will cause water to flow into the cells which have a higher hypertonic concentration. This will cause at great force (osmosis) to suck up water and thin out the salts in the cells until the plant is isotonic (equal salt concentration) with the flushing medium.

flushing works, it's not some crazy idea; its science. egyptians used osmosis to crack rocks in cliffs. They would hammer wooden stakes into the ground; and soak them with water. the cells in the wood would soak up water and crack the rocks apart with an amazingly powerful force.
 
C

CheapJoe

Member
Illegal Smile said:
What I'd like to see is something from a person with scientific credentials in botany tell me what the flush does in terms of plant physiology and why it improves taste or anything else. Do plants release something nasty back into the plain water? I don't think they do. Do plants have a hard time getting water without uptaking nutes if they don't need the nutes? I don't know, that's why I'd like to hear it from an expert. If the plain water is actually "flushing" something out of the plant, where does it get flushed to? Plus, I don't think any nutrients are stored in buds, it is stored in the roots. So how can it affect taste?

All good questions. If I could find a plant science professor that was cool enough, I'd ask him and report back.
Click to expand...

Nutes are stored in leaves, cells and seeds

leaves store sugars and salts, in the leaves are the cells that actually store all the sugars and salts in their vacuoles; seeds store lipids cells also store lipids; seeds however are the highest concentration
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
CheapJoe said:
Flushing is a method of drawling water into plant cells.

When a plant cell is burned, it's vacuoles have been loaded with solutes such as salt and sugar. Adding pure water which is a hypotonic solution (less solute) will cause water to flow into the cells which have a higher hypertonic concentration. This will cause at great force (osmosis) to suck up water and thin out the salts in the cells until the plant is isotonic (equal salt concentration) with the flushing medium.

flushing works, it's not some crazy idea; its science. egyptians used osmosis to crack rocks in cliffs. They would hammer wooden steaks into the ground; and soak them with water. the cells in the wood would soak up water and crack the rocks apart with an amazingly powerful force.
Click to expand...
Ignoring the opportunity with fun presented by wooden steaks ...
Do you see the difficulty with the process you've described? You're saying much water dilutes the salts in the plant matter, but it isn't going anywhere. Once the bud is cut and dried, that extra water evaporates, and the salst are there as if no flush had happened. Unless flushing induces the plant to actively transport salts away from the growth/bud site, it's without consequence. cn
 
C

CheapJoe

Member
cannabineer said:
Ignoring the opportunity with fun presented by wooden steaks ...
Do you see the difficulty with the process you've described? You're saying much water dilutes the salts in the plant matter, but it isn't going anywhere. Once the bud is cut and dried, that extra water evaporates, and the salst are there as if no flush had happened. Unless flushing induces the plant to actively transport salts away from the growth/bud site, it's without consequence. cn
Click to expand...
Does trolling grammar change the science behind flushing?

The cells in the plant stores salts like N, P, K, Ca, Mg and sugars. it gives the chloroplast its green pigment. Osmosis is the movement of water from hypotonic to hypertonic solutions; aka from less solute to more solute or less salty to more salty... get it.

When you feed your plant pure water; it sucks it up and lowers the concentration of nutes, If you use water as a medium the plant then relies on the nutes stored it in its vacuoles to survive. The lowest leaves start losing common nuts like nitrogen first; the plant uses up sugars; salts to make up more sugars; ect. When the leaves are turning yellow like a N def, this process is likely occurring. The plant will slowly turn its salts into sugar, then sugar into energy in all sorts of reactions. This will occur until the plant doesn't have the molecules necessary to sustain life and growth.

The salts are made up of nitrates, sulfates, and all sorts of chemicals. When these burn they create carcinogens, I'd imagine the components of the cells themselves create them too perhaps salts contribute to deadlier chemicals, but chemicals are chemicals, What your plant drinks up that it cant process is left in vacuoles like heavy metals. Plus if its in the plant, you taste it in the smoke. Whether you recognize it or not, usually the smoke will be smoother.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top