Is VPD more important than light intensity for growth?

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
There are lots of circumstances that can influence your VPD.
But the numbers... how did they come up with them?

With cannabis there is also another important factor: Although bud rot en mildew are not caused by high RH, it sure can speed it up.
So although a lower VPD would be better for growth and yield, there are many growers who prefer a higher VPD to prevent disease.
Very legitimate argument to keep the RH low.

In the discussion about VPD (not necessarily in this thread) it would also be nice if people understand a little more about RH.
Because often people indicate that their humidity is low, but they do not indicate at what temperature.
I also wonder whether people actually measure their leaf temperature.
With the various rots weve found that they will easily come if you combine stagnant air/too dense plant cannopy, with low or varying temps, and high humidity. If you can manage these 3 factors all day every day then you are usually quite safe. Another factor is having had an outbreak and not completely cleaned up. Inside ducting and in side aircooled growlights, messy heatsinks with nooks and crannies are all popular sphore hiding places. Lolipopping is your friend aswell.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
There are lots of circumstances that can influence your VPD.
But the numbers... how did they come up with them?

With cannabis there is also another important factor: Although bud rot en mildew are not caused by high RH, it sure can speed it up.
So although a lower VPD would be better for growth and yield, there are many growers who prefer a higher VPD to prevent disease.
Very legitimate argument to keep the RH low.

In the discussion about VPD (not necessarily in this thread) it would also be nice if people understand a little more about RH.
Because often people indicate that their humidity is low, but they do not indicate at what temperature.
I also wonder whether people actually measure their leaf temperature.
Nobody does. I would greatly welcome some IR readings of leaf temps. Its suggested to be 2f to 6f range.
 

Keesje

Well-Known Member
I'll throw in my 2 cents and probably piss some people off in the process.

I'm a newish grower (1.5yrs). From what I've seen across the interweb, 80-90% of home growers probably shouldn't even know or worry about what the definition is for VPD.

Insufficient lighting is 9 out of 10 times why people are getting bad harvests.
Whatever LED manufacturer it was that managed to convince people you can grow cannabis and get good yields using less wattage than most people's living room lighting, really pulled the wool over people's eyes.

It kills me to see people spend 3+ months of their lives growing beautiful looking plants, only to realize from another angle, that "beautiful plant" produced a whopping 2-4oz.

Worrying about VPD when a 4 pack of incandescent light bulbs can out power your "grow light", is like worrying about whether or not you need to put a new set of racing tires on your Ford Pinto...

Lights>VPD
Get #1 right before worrying about 2, 3, 4 etc...
Climate (which you can see as VPD) is just as important, if not even more important then light. Of course when the light is totally shit, nothing helps anymore. But even with not so good lights you can grow a decent but, as long as you have your climate in order.

In general: what most people do, is making sure that they have low humidity. That is their holy grail. They don't look at temperature and leaf temperature.
They measure their RH during the day and then it is 60% for example.
But 60% with 30C/86F gives a VPD of 1.2.
While 60% with 25C/77F gives a VPD of 0.9.
That is quite a difference for the stomata and can lead to a different intake of CO2.

Then when the lights turn off they think they are ok with their 60% they had with the lights on. Not realizing that their RH will go up.
There is not much wrong with this increasing of the RH during the night in terms of stomata and CO2 absorption.
But the chance that the water vapor can deposit as small droplets on your leaves and buds becomes bigger.
During the night, but especially in the first phase when the light will turn on again: Everything was 'cold', but then the air warms up a bit, but your plant mass is still cold. Then the water vapor deposits even more on your plants.
Just like we see in nature on some mornings. The wet grass and the fog over the fields, and the tiny waterdrops on a spiders web.
This precipitation of water is a requirement for bud rot and mildew.
 
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Kushash

Well-Known Member
If were getting back to ops question: the whole idea of vpd is to maximize transpiration, or at least to get it to the point where its able to support the level of photosyntesis desired. in many comercial settings you try for 600ppfd even (40000lux iirc) and dialing in environment/vpd.
Remember vpd for low/no heat lights (leds) and IR heavy lights (hps) is not the same. Also remember you need a certain heating of the plant to maintain its metabolism rate in high intensity scenarios.
Another thing to take into account is light quality; amount and nm of blue and uv is also responsible for opening stomata which will also affect transpiration, a high blue light will better in part for this: its able to push the stomata open in low light intensity situations. People sometimes miss out on this with leds: in veg we want to give less total light (DLI) as the plants is not yet able to take very much. But the actual opening of the stomata is governed by ppfd of blue light (with certain nm being weighed more). So if your running low intensity with little blue then it can get very difficult to get the plant to transpire without giving it too much light for 18 hours.
So maybe i should revise my original statement: vpd is extra important when you are pushing the limits of DLI of what your plants can take, both in terms of long hours and high intensity. But if you go little by little with this sooner or later you get to a point where the plant is able to take massive loads of ppfd, this is when to really push it. Point is that you need to let the plant show you. Vpd in pure numbers are a bit pointless if you dont consider plant response. Point is: in a grow situation where you can deduce or feel that theres an environment related problem making the plants sag and not transpire, vpd will point the direction of where to take the environment, not an exact value. You slowly take it towards that direction.
Another layer of the oniion is CO2: high CO2 levels tend to close the stomata so you may need to compensate for this. Also, high CO2 levels + high intensity needs a few extra degrees of temps.
In the end the question is not is intensity or vpd more important; having reached basic levels of intensity (flower 600ppfd) most important is to understand how environmental factors, ppm in your feed, light quality all comes together and to be able to see and spot the signs of everything working well.

This is my fav vpd resource, it lets you set leaf temps as + or - degrees oof lleaf temps to account for different types of lighting. Even sso, it only indicates directions not absolute numbers imo.

This thread went quiet so I thought this would be a good spot to ask you a question.

A feature I would like for my future LED lights would be for the light intensity to come on at lights on to a preset level let's say 40%, then over a period of time maybe 15 minutes have the light automatically increase to let's say 80%.

Is this an option for the future?
I don't know if this has been discussed or created by someone. I feel it would benefit the plant if the light intensity was not so immediate creating happier plants with less stress showing in the leaves.

Do you see something like this benefiting the plant?
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
This thread went quiet so I thought this would be a good spot to ask you a question.

A feature I would like for my future LED lights would be for the light intensity to come on at lights on to a preset level let's say 40%, then over a period of time maybe 15 minutes have the light automatically increase to let's say 80%.

Is this an option for the future?
I don't know if this has been discussed or created by someone. I feel it would benefit the plant if the light intensity was not so immediate creating happier plants with less stress showing in the leaves.

Do you see something like this benefiting the plant?
Ive seen sunrise/set in various controller/light fixtures and never seen anything to show its benefit or detriment. It probably has some slight benefit, not sure how one would quantify it though. I suggest you try it.
 

Keesje

Well-Known Member
I doubt if it will have any benefits on the growth. Also be aware that you don't give them less light in total.

Where it might give some benefit is in a more gradual warming up of your plants and your environment.
As a result, perhaps slightly less chance of getting your buds damp/wet, and therefore slightly less chance of bud rot.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
This thread went quiet so I thought this would be a good spot to ask you a question.

A feature I would like for my future LED lights would be for the light intensity to come on at lights on to a preset level let's say 40%, then over a period of time maybe 15 minutes have the light automatically increase to let's say 80%.

Is this an option for the future?
I don't know if this has been discussed or created by someone. I feel it would benefit the plant if the light intensity was not so immediate creating happier plants with less stress showing in the leaves.

Do you see something like this benefiting the plant?
California Lightworks makes this a big selling point of their controllers. You can modify intensity and spectrum for exactly the reasons specified. Can even go for far red lights on/off settings.

Although its mostly sold to consumers the real benefit would be in greenhouse / commercial settings imo, where energy savings would be paramount.
 

Relic79

Well-Known Member
I doubt if it will have any benefits on the growth. Also be aware that you don't give them less light in total.

Where it might give some benefit is in a more gradual warming up of your plants and your environment.
As a result, perhaps slightly less chance of getting your buds damp/wet, and therefore slightly less chance of bud rot.
I'm actually planning on trying this mostly just to learn how to integrate a microcontroller with the dimmer connections on my HLG driver. It can take a PWM signal to set the dimming level.

I was going to use a raspberry Pi to change the dim level over time to start.

I want to be sure to mention, I have no scientific way to measure results, and am not sure there would be any to report anyway. I just want to play because I have the time, a raspberry Pi and an itch.

I do have some bro-sciency thoughts on how it might be useful under extremely powerful LED lamps but not sure since I haven't vetted any of the knowledge I gained from the one or two articles I've read on the subject. Again, I really just want to play cause I can, and do this stuff as a hobby.

For example, I read at lunch and into late afternoon ppfd levels can be 1500+

I wondered if a plant might be able to withstand higher ppfd levels indoors if allowed to ramp up to the extreme over time, and only for a few hours, then back down.

Alternatively I had considered a pulley system that lowered the light over time to increase the ppfd if already at max.

Sounds a bit silly to type it and read it, but it's just a thought experiment. When I can't prune and fuss over plants I get bored!
 
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