It's all BS and other stupid stuff.

RickWhite · Apr 17, 2010

What do all these comments have in common?

“Politicians are all the same.”

“All religions are bad and stupid.”

“Everything in government is corrupt.”

“All wars are about money and oil.”

“Politics is really all about money.”

“The corporations run everything.”

“Our foreign policy is to blame for most things done to us by others.”

Do you see a trend? Think about it for a moment - what do all these claims have in common?

What they have in common is that all of them are statements that the uninformed can use to appear to have an opinion on a complex political or social issue. They are all generic one size fits all statements that say nothing about the issue to which they are applied.

What does one need to know about religion to condemn them all as being the same and all of zero value? Does anyone believe that the people who say this have studied Talmud with Judaism's greatest rabbinic minds? Have they spent years in a monastery studying Christian theology? Have they discussed the most intricate aspects of Buddhism with the Dali Lama? Have they studied the Bhagavad-Gita, the Qur'an or the works of Confucius in depth?

Of course not; in fact, most people who make such statements about religion have never even heard of most of these things. After all, it is so much easier to judge solely from one’s own limited experience and simply proclaim that all religions are wrong and stupid. One need know absolutely nothing to make such a comment, and those who hear it and also know nothing find it an easy pill to swallow. This approach is much easier than wrestling with the 63 volumes of rabbinic wisdom that make up the Talmud, with the meaning of the five noble truths found in Buddhism or with the concepts of asceticism one would encounter in the Bhagavad-Gita. Why do any of this when it’s so easy to take the easy road and universally condemn all religion as valueless. After all, it isn’t as if there is anything that can be learned from any of them.

The other statements are no different. Take the statement "all politicians are the same." While there may be similarities between most politicians, it is unreasonable to say that Barak Obama is no different than Ronald Regan. To hold such a position is to be intellectually lazy and nothing more. It is like saying "I do not know anything about either person, but if I criticize both of them I sound smart and I can't lose."

The same is true of the other statements and with so many more "blame America" positions. The tendency of some to blame America or "the establishment" for all of our problems is likewise, an intellectual cop-out. Again, one needs know nothing to make the simplistic assumption that if someone is mad at you, you must have done something to them. And of course, laying the blame with your own government is practically a tradition in America. Again, why learn the nuance of issues when you can over simplify.

In the end, that is what all these statements represent. They represent an intellectual cop-out in which ignorance and over simplification meet expediency and political correctness. They require the person saying them to know absolutely nothing about an issue while creating the illusion that the person is informed and politically minded. They are perfect opinions for one who doesn’t like to think too much.

Keenly2 · Apr 18, 2010

but.... politicians ARE all the same

save the .01%, and you know who im talking about specifically

Padawanbater2 · Apr 18, 2010

Since you so obviously have some sort of e-boner for me, I'll take the time and return the love. :hug:

What do all these comments have in common?

Oh boy! This should be good!

“Politicians are all the same.”

I disagree with that statement.

“All religions are bad and stupid.”

...disagree with that one too.

“Everything in government is corrupt.”

Yep, that one too...

“All wars are about money and oil.”

Nope, do not agree with that one...

“Politics is really all about money.”

I disagree with that.

“The corporations run everything.”

That too.

“Our foreign policy is to blame for most things done to us by others.”

That's arguable, I'd have to think about that one, as the words "most things" could be interpreted many ways.

Do you see a trend? Think about it for a moment - what do all these claims have in common?

They're all terrible misinterpretations thought up by an egotistical unhappy little man scared of the changes being made out in the real world by people who actually give a damn about other human beings?

What they have in common is that all of them are statements that the uninformed can use to appear to have an opinion on a complex political or social issue. They are all generic one size fits all statements that say nothing about the issue to which they are applied.

They seem to be insane misinterpretations of propaganda that you've heard over the years that you think people believe, but nobody actually does. :idea:

What does one need to know about religion to condemn them all as being the same and all of zero value? Does anyone believe that the people who say this have studied Talmud with Judaism's greatest rabbinic minds? Have they spent years in a monastery studying Christian theology? Have they discussed the most intricate aspects of Buddhism with the Dali Lama? Have they studied the Bhagavad-Gita, the Qur'an or the works of Confucius in depth?

...this is exactly what I mean. When did I ever say "all religion is bad"? I believe "all organized religion is detrimental for mankind". Understand there is a difference between religion and organized religion. I also believe there are a lot of things that can be learned by studying religion, and avoided. Religious texts have their place in our cultures, but the bottom line is - they're dangerous, all of the ones I've studied, each in their own way. To avoid that fact is ignorant. They cause us more harm than they do good in our world.

Of course not; in fact, most people who make such statements about religion have never even heard of most of these things. After all, it is so much easier to judge solely from one’s own limited experience and simply proclaim that all religions are wrong and stupid. One need know absolutely nothing to make such a comment, and those who hear it and also know nothing find it an easy pill to swallow. This approach is much easier than wrestling with the 63 volumes of rabbinic wisdom that make up the Talmud, with the meaning of the five noble truths found in Buddhism or with the concepts of asceticism one would encounter in the Bhagavad-Gita. Why do any of this when it’s so easy to take the easy road and universally condemn all religion as valueless. After all, it isn’t as if there is anything that can be learned from any of them.

Again, you believe things about people that aren't actually true. I've never said all religions are wrong and stupid.

How do you figure condemning religion would be "taking the easy road" anyway? Explain that to me.

Like I've said before, tons of things can be learned from studying world religions.

The other statements are no different. Take the statement "all politicians are the same." While there may be similarities between most politicians, it is unreasonable to say that Barak Obama is no different than Ronald Regan. To hold such a position is to be intellectually lazy and nothing more. It is like saying "I do not know anything about either person, but if I criticize both of them I sound smart and I can't lose."

You completely miss the point of what is actually being said.

"Barak Obama is no different than Ronald Reagan" - meaning both are presidents, both don't give a flying fuck about the American people, both put on a show to represent democracy when it's false.

It's become The United Corporate States of America

This is what you pledge your allegiance to, pal. :spew:

The same is true of the other statements and with so many more "blame America" positions. The tendency of some to blame America or "the establishment" for all of our problems is likewise, an intellectual cop-out. Again, one needs know nothing to make the simplistic assumption that if someone is mad at you, you must have done something to them. And of course, laying the blame with your own government is practically a tradition in America. Again, why learn the nuance of issues when you can over simplify.

How intellectually lazy is it to believe everything you're taught through the government funded, mandated public school system about how great the USA is, without ever learning about the faults? Dismiss the clear dishonest part about it, that is the lazy position to take. Discovering the way the world actually works requires devotion and dedication. It's much more than listening to what your favorite conservative columnist says or writes about, or reading book after book after book of the same old tiresome racist, bigoted, egocentric American biased opinions that everyone has already heard a thousand times before. We've all already heard it, Rick. We've thought about them and came to the conclusion they're retarded, and only racist, bigoted asshole Americans adhere to them.

Take the shit to another country and you'd be embarrassed to spew that garbage. People would spit on you, call you an idiot and tell you that American policies are ruining the world and destabilizing regions.

In the end, that is what all these statements represent. They represent an intellectual cop-out in which ignorance and over simplification meet expediency and political correctness. They require the person saying them to know absolutely nothing about an issue while creating the illusion that the person is informed and politically minded. They are perfect opinions for one who doesn’t like to think too much.

Well, when you feel like arguing against my actual beliefs, you could start with asking what I actually believe in. That way you don't look like an ass (so much) when you attempt to argue them. :shock:

Just a suggestion, champ. :hug:

RickWhite · Apr 18, 2010

Padawan, I find it humorous that you think that the post was written with you in mind. Ever hear the term "delusions of grandeur"?

To be sure, the piece does fit you, but it fits many here. Nice job repeating all of your positions and spewing insults as if we all haven't hear all this ad-nausium.

In the end, the only thing you said that was even close to a rebuttal was when you acknowledged that the great religions of the world do have value. Of the hundreds of times you have posted vicious anti-religion tirades, that is the first time I have heard you admit that religion has also been a force for good.

And FYI, all ideas and ideologies can be dangerous. Read this post.

https://www.rollitup.org/politics/322484-intellectuals-society-thomas-sowell.html

Our task in life is to determine specifically, which ones are more likely to have good results and which ones bad. This requires in depth knowledge of complex subjects. One could easily make the same blanket statement about ideas that you make about religion, both would be perfect examples of the intellectual laziness I spoke of.

But you know, there is another intellectual cop-out that you have brought to my attention. The good old ad-hominem attack. I've noticed all your posts are built around the same basic claim. The claim that others just can't see, don't get or are blind to your ideas. Because, you explain, they are ignorant, uneducated, brain washed, bigoted, hateful, compassionate and just generally to fixated on Right wing propaganda, etc.

Every single post I have ever seen you post is largely a combination of these intellectual cop-outs buttressed by your little "you just don't get it" claim. The funny thing, and the thing that most proves my point, is that it is abundantly clear that myself and others typically know more than you do about most subjects including your own positions and yet you just keep repeating ad-infinitum, that we "don't get it."

Here is a news flash; just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they "don't get it" or "can't grasp" your ideas. Your ideas are not complex at all, they are not new or novel and they are not foreign to everyone but you. Maybe, just maybe, people such as myself have analyzed your ideas in ways you have yet to discover and have found flaws that you are not seeing.

Ah, but see, to consider that would mean you had to actually break down and do some real analysis of the issues. Why do that when it is so much easier to just attack others as being ignorant of the facts, brainwashed and incapable of seeing your sheer brilliance.

If that isn't an intellectual cop-out I don't know what is.

On second thought:

Padawan, instead of starting childish little polls and attacking people, why don't you take the ideas that you espouse above and write an in depth post explaining your positions. Explain how all religion has been "detrimental to mankind." How has Buddhism been detrimental? Please weigh for us the good vs bad in Buddhism. It should be easy since you have the internet - it isn't as if you need to know jack shit about Buddhism, which you don't. In fact, I guarantee the entire extent of your knowledge of the world's religions is your own limited experience with your own. But hey, I'm willing to give you a chance. So please, explain to us in detail how the basic tenants of Buddhism are detrimental to mankind.

Oh and by the way, watch out for that Dali Lama dude, I hear he is one dangerous guy.

Padawanbater2 · Apr 19, 2010

RickWhite said:
Padawan, I find it humorous that you think that the post was written with you in mind. Ever hear the term "delusions of grandeur"?

Riight. Your post had absolutely nothing to do with me. It's pretty obvious man, you've got some kind of thing for me on this forum. You comment on everything I say. You even go as far as saying people shouldn't believe the things I say because of the way I say them. Totally above and beyond the normal douchebag routine.

To be sure, the piece does fit you, but it fits many here. Nice job repeating all of your positions and spewing insults as if we all haven't hear all this ad-nausium.

Tip of the hat to you too sir. :joint:

In the end, the only thing you said that was even close to a rebuttal was when you acknowledged that the great religions of the world do have value. Of the hundreds of times you have posted vicious anti-religion tirades, that is the first time I have heard you admit that religion has also been a force for good.

It's statements like that that give away your actual position Ricky. You can lie all you want up front in text, but it's pretty clear how you actually seem to feel. The statements I make about organized religion are always and have always been made from a pro-logic standpoint, not an "anti-religious" one. The fact that the logic might happen to trample the foundations of religious retardation coming from organized religions doesn't make it any more "vicious" or any less logical. Tell religions to stop telling millions of people not to use condoms in the face of an AIDS epidemic, tell them to put the bullshit dark age "traditions" where they belong, the past. You expect me to dumb myself, my morals or my beliefs down because an organized religion says theirs are better than mine?

Religion has been a force for good, but the harm is does simply isn't worth it and the lessons can be learned without the justification for killing people attached. You put it in perspective, a lot of the good people get from religion came about because of the bad the concept of religion itself created.

And FYI, all ideas and ideologies can be dangerous. Read this post.

https://www.rollitup.org/politics/322484-intellectuals-society-thomas-sowell.html

Which isn't the point at all..

You've admitted as much in our past conversations, it's not something I have anything to do with, just because I get it and you don't doesn't make me any better than you, and I've never said it does. Anyone reading our posts can see you think you're superior to everyone else in intellect. You simply do not understand or will not acknowledge the fact that organized religions, specifically Christianity, (because the majority of Americans believe the bullshit) are dangerous to all the other millions of people who do not believe the adult fairy tales and the rest of the world at large. We pay the price for these retards to feel "comfy". Fuck that, and fuck anyone who believes that burden should be pushed onto us. I'm a more moral person because I choose to be, which is ultimately the better reason, and any God with an "objective sense of morality" would agree with that, and it would be the ultimate ironic twist of fate if all the atheists who actually questioned what true morality actually meant on Earth were admitted into heaven, as that was the real test and not just following what ancient power hungry desert men with not even a basic sense of what the word even means had to say.

Our task in life is to determine specifically, which ones are more likely to have good results and which ones bad. This requires in depth knowledge of complex subjects. One could easily make the same blanket statement about ideas that you make about religion, both would be perfect examples of the intellectual laziness I spoke of.

You don't know the first fuckin' thing I believe in. You've dismissed peace as "childish" and a "pipe-dream".

How can I even expect to have any kind of rational conversation with a person like that? :confused:

But you know, there is another intellectual cop-out that you have brought to my attention. The good old ad-hominem attack. I've noticed all your posts are built around the same basic claim. The claim that others just can't see, don't get or are blind to your ideas. Because, you explain, they are ignorant, uneducated, brain washed, bigoted, hateful, compassionate and just generally to fixated on Right wing propaganda, etc.

The bias organized religion instills in people is probably one of the worst parts about it, imo. It enforces their ideas are right, even in light of every single shred of contrary evidence, provable, testable data, AGAINST THEIR OPINION, and they still believe the retarded bullshit they already believed because the dogma's they adhere to tell them the "non-believers" will try anything, make any attempt, including (in their minds) lie to them. They believe the scientific evidence presented in all the things that go against their dogmas are lies to get them to turn to the Devil, to turn away from Christ. This exact same way of thinking crosses over in all aspects of their lives, which would obviously include politics and the politicians they vote for.

I know you're not an idiot, I know you can see exactly what I see.

Which leads me to another point. You talk yourself up quite a bit, take the moral high ground, claim moral superiority as I'm just some dumb kid on the internet spouting off childish, not well thought opinions and I just want to sound tough or look cool or whatever else Saved By the Bell told you...

But take a look at both of our tones in our posts, whose being the childish one, Rick? :neutral:

Every single post I have ever seen you post is largely a combination of these intellectual cop-outs buttressed by your little "you just don't get it" claim. The funny thing, and the thing that most proves my point, is that it is abundantly clear that myself and others typically know more than you do about most subjects including your own positions and yet you just keep repeating ad-infinitum, that we "don't get it."

Here is a news flash; just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they "don't get it" or "can't grasp" your ideas. Your ideas are not complex at all, they are not new or novel and they are not foreign to everyone but you. Maybe, just maybe, people such as myself have analyzed your ideas in ways you have yet to discover and have found flaws that you are not seeing.

Ah, but see, to consider that would mean you had to actually break down and do some real analysis of the issues. Why do that when it is so much easier to just attack others as being ignorant of the facts, brainwashed and incapable of seeing your sheer brilliance.

If that isn't an intellectual cop-out I don't know what is.

On second thought:

Padawan, instead of starting childish little polls and attacking people, why don't you take the ideas that you espouse above and write an in depth post explaining your positions. Explain how all religion has been "detrimental to mankind." How has Buddhism been detrimental? Please weigh for us the good vs bad in Buddhism. It should be easy since you have the internet - it isn't as if you need to know jack shit about Buddhism, which you don't. In fact, I guarantee the entire extent of your knowledge of the world's religions is your own limited experience with your own. But hey, I'm willing to give you a chance. So please, explain to us in detail how the basic tenants of Buddhism are detrimental to mankind.

Oh and by the way, watch out for that Dali Lama dude, I hear he is one dangerous guy.

Part 2 to come...

MuyLocoNC · Apr 19, 2010

[QUOTE as I'm just some dumb kid on the internet spouting off childish, not well thought opinions and I just want to sound tough or look cool or whatever else Saved By the Bell told you][/QUOTE]

Pad, I'd say that is an almost perfect description of most of your posts. In this case Rick has your number completely. I don't even think you realize how often you Libs use the "you just aren't smart enough to get it" argument.

Sorry pal, we get it and we reject it... you see some of us actually read history books NOT written by Progressives with the explicit intent of deceiving the reader.

RickWhite · Apr 19, 2010

Padawanbater2 said:
Riight. Your post had absolutely nothing to do with me. It's pretty obvious man, you've got some kind of thing for me on this forum. You comment on everything I say. You even go as far as saying people shouldn't believe the things I say because of the way I say them. Totally above and beyond the normal douchebag routine.

Tip of the hat to you too sir.

It's statements like that that give away your actual position Ricky. You can lie all you want up front in text, but it's pretty clear how you actually seem to feel. The statements I make about organized religion are always and have always been made from a pro-logic standpoint, not an "anti-religious" one. The fact that the logic might happen to trample the foundations of religious retardation coming from organized religions doesn't make it any more "vicious" or any less logical. Tell religions to stop telling millions of people not to use condoms in the face of an AIDS epidemic, tell them to put the bullshit dark age "traditions" where they belong, the past. You expect me to dumb myself, my morals or my beliefs down because an organized religion says theirs are better than mine?

Religion has been a force for good, but the harm is does simply isn't worth it and the lessons can be learned without the justification for killing people attached. You put it in perspective, a lot of the good people get from religion came about because of the bad the concept of religion itself created.

Which isn't the point at all..

You've admitted as much in our past conversations, it's not something I have anything to do with, just because I get it and you don't doesn't make me any better than you, and I've never said it does. Anyone reading our posts can see you think you're superior to everyone else in intellect. You simply do not understand or will not acknowledge the fact that organized religions, specifically Christianity, (because the majority of Americans believe the bullshit) are dangerous to all the other millions of people who do not believe the adult fairy tales and the rest of the world at large. We pay the price for these retards to feel "comfy". Fuck that, and fuck anyone who believes that burden should be pushed onto us. I'm a more moral person because I choose to be, which is ultimately the better reason, and any God with an "objective sense of morality" would agree with that, and it would be the ultimate ironic twist of fate if all the atheists who actually questioned what true morality actually meant on Earth were admitted into heaven, as that was the real test and not just following what ancient power hungry desert men with not even a basic sense of what the word even means had to say.

You don't know the first fuckin' thing I believe in. You've dismissed peace as "childish" and a "pipe-dream".

How can I even expect to have any kind of rational conversation with a person like that?

The bias organized religion instills in people is probably one of the worst parts about it, imo. It enforces their ideas are right, even in light of every single shred of contrary evidence, provable, testable data, AGAINST THEIR OPINION, and they still believe the retarded bullshit they already believed because the dogma's they adhere to tell them the "non-believers" will try anything, make any attempt, including (in their minds) lie to them. They believe the scientific evidence presented in all the things that go against their dogmas are lies to get them to turn to the Devil, to turn away from Christ. This exact same way of thinking crosses over in all aspects of their lives, which would obviously include politics and the politicians they vote for.

I know you're not an idiot, I know you can see exactly what I see.

Which leads me to another point. You talk yourself up quite a bit, take the moral high ground, claim moral superiority as I'm just some dumb kid on the internet spouting off childish, not well thought opinions and I just want to sound tough or look cool or whatever else Saved By the Bell told you...

But take a look at both of our tones in our posts, whose being the childish one, Rick?

Part 2 to come...

Congratulations on being able to repeat your positions yet again!

Padawan, if you are not man enough to answer the question (which you obviously are not) go away.

And PS - you know DICK about religion! All you know about religion comes from your own tiny bit of exposure to a handful of religious people that you know. Have you ever studied a religion other than your own? Fuck no you haven't! have you ever even stepped foot in a Synagogue? Have you even heard of Talmud before I brought it up? Fuck no you haven't!

Why can you not get it through that titanium ball of a skull you have that you don't know shit about the world's religions?

Padawanbater2 · Apr 20, 2010

RickWhite said:
Every single post I have ever seen you post is largely a combination of these intellectual cop-outs buttressed by your little "you just don't get it" claim. The funny thing, and the thing that most proves my point, is that it is abundantly clear that myself and others typically know more than you do about most subjects including your own positions and yet you just keep repeating ad-infinitum, that we "don't get it."

Like I said before, you really don't know what I believe. You think you do, but you don't, as obvious by your arguments against what you think I do believe. I can tell just by reading them, exactly like when I talk to creationists about evolution, they don't accept it because they don't know anything about it. They just know what they've been told, or in this case, what you've misunderstood as my actual positions, then tried to refute that, which isn't what I believed in the first place. Brilliant. You've used the "croco-duck" argument. :clap:

You think I believe all religions are bad. I don't.

You think I believe there's absolutely nothing that can be gained from religion. I don't.

See, those are just two examples of the obvious misunderstandings of my beliefs you have. There are plenty more. :dunce:

Here is a news flash; just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they "don't get it" or "can't grasp" your ideas. Your ideas are not complex at all, they are not new or novel and they are not foreign to everyone but you. Maybe, just maybe, people such as myself have analyzed your ideas in ways you have yet to discover and have found flaws that you are not seeing.

Why don't you point them out? Why continue to be an ass and troll up the forums reporting posts? Take a look at our posts, again, I go point by point, take the time and quote each paragraph. You post back with dickish remarks and a pompous attitude. If anything I say has a flaw in it, point it out. Highlight it, so I can see it, so we can talk about it and come to some kind of conclusion, together, about a better way to do it. Doesn't that make sense to you? Can you recognize how a big ego or hard head in this kind of thing just gets in the way of progress? You're a grown man, you must realize the way you speak to people determines a lot of the way the tone of the interaction that follows will go, right? Is it just the anonymity of the internet, or are you actually a dick in person too?

Ah, but see, to consider that would mean you had to actually break down and do some real analysis of the issues. Why do that when it is so much easier to just attack others as being ignorant of the facts, brainwashed and incapable of seeing your sheer brilliance.

If that isn't an intellectual cop-out I don't know what is.

You're the guy claiming brilliance, dude. Expert in all things, human psychology, economic theory, world religions, education, morality, science, politics, warfare, ... what aren't you an expert in, Rick?

I think the main reason people don't accept the things I have to say is because they see the system as too big to change. From countless different people it always comes down to the same thing "that's just the way it is". Everyone recognizes the same exact problem, that's not the issue, nobody knows how to do anything about it. Which has always been the problem.

On second thought:

Padawan, instead of starting childish little polls and attacking people, why don't you take the ideas that you espouse above and write an in depth post explaining your positions. Explain how all religion has been "detrimental to mankind." How has Buddhism been detrimental? Please weigh for us the good vs bad in Buddhism. It should be easy since you have the internet - it isn't as if you need to know jack shit about Buddhism, which you don't. In fact, I guarantee the entire extent of your knowledge of the world's religions is your own limited experience with your own. But hey, I'm willing to give you a chance. So please, explain to us in detail how the basic tenants of Buddhism are detrimental to mankind.

Well.. I guess this paragraph serves as another great point to what I was talking about earlier... You don't know what I believe. You really don't have the slightest idea it seems.

It's pretty simple really, and it wouldn't require an entire post (but since you asked, I've actually already devoted an entire thread to it, https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/252681-atheism.html, 2,241 pages of explanations just for you!), religions are dangerous because they reinforce dangerous ideas at the expense of anyone else who doesn't believe in them. Organized religions are more dangerous because they have political influence. Religion is the reason people believe horrible acts committed against each other can be called "good" and "justified", which in turn leads small groups of people in powerful positions to use it against them in order to benefit themselves.

Religion justifies war, without it, and with the global realization that we're all essentially brothers and sisters, war, on an international level, would not exist.

Oh and by the way, watch out for that Dali Lama dude, I hear he is one dangerous guy.

As dangerous as the Pope? ;-)

I'm probably too old though... :sad:

RickWhite said:
Congratulations on being able to repeat your positions yet again!

Padawan, if you are not man enough to answer the question (which you obviously are not) go away.

How do you suggest I answer a question about a belief I don't hold? :wall:

And PS - you know DICK about religion! All you know about religion comes from your own tiny bit of exposure to a handful of religious people that you know. Have you ever studied a religion other than your own? Fuck no you haven't! have you ever even stepped foot in a Synagogue? Have you even heard of Talmud before I brought it up? Fuck no you haven't!

I don't have a religion, bro. I'm a proud atheist. Keep speculating though, makes ya look gooood. :bigjoint:

Why can you not get it through that titanium ball of a skull you have that you don't know shit about the world's religions?

I know that this experiment's been running for thousands of years with religion at the forefront, take a look around...

I dunno about you, but I'm definitely ready for a world without the grown up fairy tales. Ya know, nobody flying planes into buildings, nobody sawing peoples heads off for apostasy, nobody stoning anyone for loving another person... nobody blowing up Federal buildings or terrorizing London... it would be GREAT!

Now all we have to do is get all the 6.5 billion other believers on board.

RickWhite · Apr 20, 2010

Blah, blah, blah, blah - you have nothing but hot air.

Again, explain how Buddhism is dangerous since you claim to be so knowledgeable of all religions.

And by the way, you don't know jack shit about evolution either. Have you ever taken a single college biology course? Fuck no you haven't! If I ask you what DNA stands for, you would have to Google it - don't even lie and say otherwise.

And how do you know God didn't create evolution? How do you know God didn't cause the big bag?

Have you ever considered that maybe different people define "God" differently? Do you know how many philosophical definitions of God there are? Did you know not all see God in terms of a creator?

No you don't - you know none of this because you are simply an opinionated ignoramus. Your views on religion comes from you teeny tiny, microscopic, soda straw view of the little bit of Christianity you have been exposed to. That is all you know of religion. The only reason you spout off about it is because your world view is so pathetically small that you lack the breadth of knowledge to even see how small it is.

Why don't you just give up already - you really are not a thinker and never will be.

Padawanbater2 · Apr 20, 2010

RickWhite said:
Blah, blah, blah, blah - you have nothing but hot air.

Again, explain how Buddhism is dangerous since you claim to be so knowledgeable of all religions.

Well...

But again, I've never claimed to be an expert in any religions. I don't study them for a living or get paid to talk about them, like you apparently do... I talk about the religions I am familiar with. Christianity because of my location and where I was born, and Islam because of it's influence on global affairs. I study both of them actively.

Do I think Buddhism is detrimental to mankind? I don't know. I don't know enough about it to give an honest opinion. That's what honest people do, admit if they don't know something, not pretend they do and give dishonest, inaccurate information as if it's fact. There are thousands of world religions Rick, do you think I'm claiming to be an expert on any of them?

I don't make any claims about Buddhism, never have.

And by the way, you don't know jack shit about evolution either. Have you ever taken a single college biology course? Fuck no you haven't! If I ask you what DNA stands for, you would have to Google it - don't even lie and say otherwise.

What exactly would lead you to make a claim like this?

No I actually wouldn't, I know what DNA stands for, believe it or not.

And how do you know God didn't create evolution? How do you know God didn't cause the big bag?

lol

Again man, statements like these alert anyone reading along you haven't thought this out with a scientific frame of mind. How do I know God didn't create evolution or the big bang? I don't... How do you know an invisible being named Ted didn't create them? You don't. What's the difference? Religious people (idiots) say "well you can't prove God didn't do it!" - just like you just did, nonbelievers (smart people) say "show me some evidence that says God did do it...".

There is no evidence for a God, so why would I believe one exists?

Have you ever considered that maybe different people define "God" differently? Do you know how many philosophical definitions of God there are? Did you know not all see God in terms of a creator?

Yep. Yeah, quite a bit. And yeah, I did know that. How is it relevant?

No you don't - you know none of this because you are simply an opinionated ignoramus. Your views on religion comes from you teeny tiny, microscopic, soda straw view of the little bit of Christianity you have been exposed to. That is all you know of religion. The only reason you spout off about it is because your world view is so pathetically small that you lack the breadth of knowledge to even see how small it is.

OK, you seem to think religion is this supreme example of morality that we should all follow, without it we'd lose complete control. So tell me, what's your stance on religion? I've gathered you believe Islam is dangerous and Christianity is not, but what do you actually believe? Jesus Christ is the son of God? The whole crucifixion thing, rise from the dead, original sin, garden of Eden, etc.? God is some force of energy controlling the structure of the universe..? God is an idea to give us moral guidance? What? Explain it to me.

I have a feeling you'll just dodge this to get out of explaining your actual beliefs because you and I both know they're absolutely nuts! But let's see... :-P

Why don't you just give up already - you really are not a thinker and never will be.

Dude, you're more than twice my age and can't even respond to the shit I have to say correctly... Try again.

RickWhite · Apr 21, 2010

Unlike you Padawan, I hold complex views of religion bases on an actual understanding of them. My views would be far too much to explain here. I will however, share a few important key points.

First, religion is a branch of philosophy having to do with the existence of God. That can mean different things to different people. But as with all philosophy, intelligent people study it with the intention of learning what they can from it. I believe that all religions hold great teachings from which we can learn a great deal about ourselves and our own lives both in terms of individuals and collectively. So when one asks if everything in the Bible is true, I must first ask how one defines truth. Is it true that Noah had two of every living thing in an ark he built himself by hand, of course not. Is the take home message of the story true - more than likely. Did all people descend genetically from one man and one woman - of course not. Should we recognize that with knowledge comes a great capacity for evil and that we must be cognizant of this fact? Yes, I believe that is true.

As with all ideas that inspire passion, religion can be a tremendous motivator. It can motive people to be better people and better citizens and it can drive people apart. Most, (Islam being the one notable question) are centered around the question of how to make better people.

If you want to talk about Western or the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) each has it's own set of core concepts.

Judaism:

This is where Western religion began.

The core belief is that the rule of law and clearly defined morals provide the best way to create good people and good in general. Do I believe all the stories in the Old Testament are true? Certainly not in a literal sense. But, are they correct in a moral sense? I say most are. You ask how I can prove this - take all the precepts of Judaism and imagine what a society would look like were everyone to live by their opposites.

In addition, Judaism is very law centered and vigorous debate is a mandate. The literal translation of Israel is "one who wrestles with God." Jews believe in the polar opposite of blind faith

Christianity:

Building on Judaism, the basic concept is that rules alone are not sufficient. That people must abide by rules, but they must also do them with good intentions in their heart and always do what they honestly believe is right. Additional emphasis is upon loving your fellow man.

Additionally, Christianity came about long after the death of Jesus and became highly politicized. As a result, much of what is now practiced in Christianity is more a product of this than of actual scripture. That, and not scripture is the reason for most of the things you take issue with. You have been exposed and are familiar with main stream Christianity which is a secular and political invention that has little to do with the actual teachings of Jesus.

Of particular importance, is the fact that there is nothing in the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity that condone violence. Jesus taught pacifism and love for one's enemy, and Judaism even requires one to morn the death of their enemies.

While it is true that people who identify themselves as Christians have done and continue to do awful things, this is always done in direct contradiction to the teachings of their faith.

Islam:

When we get into Islam, we get into a whole other subject. Islam literally translated mens "submission" not "peace" as some suggest - "peace" is pronounced "salaam" in Arabic.

A Muslim, is one who submits to God. Islam is the only faith that falls entirely within the light of recorded history so there are a lot more certainties than in the other faiths. Muhammad, was a warlord and in his lifetime he developed a deep hatred of Christians and especially Jews and even declared war against them in the final verses of the Qur'an. Although very similar to Judaism in its rules, Islam claims that the Jews, once God's favorite, perverted the word of God and was therefore replaced by Islam. Unique to Islam, are many concepts such as that of Jihad or "holy war," which are evidence of a highly war and subjugation centered faith. In Islam, to die in a Jihad or holy war (which is any war that increase the dominance of Islam) is considered the single most noble act a person can do. One who performs such an act is promised 72 virgins in heaven and their family becomes essentially royalty.

There are many other concepts in Islam that deal with its dominance and subjugation of other faiths. Dar AL Islam is the notion of peace through domination and subjugation of all other faiths. There is a lot more that is too much to get into here.

In conclusion, while all faiths have their zealots, and can inspire great passion including acts of violence, Islam is unique in two ways. One is the fact that a great many Muslims do believe that their religion justifies violence and can make legitimate arguments to that end. And two, the sheer number and extent of the violence and oppression in Muslim society that is unparalleled anywhere else. Muslim countries still practice slaver to this day, not despite their religion but specifically in keeping with it. In fact Islam teaches than non-Muslims are the same as animals.

While some Christians, mostly in ancient times and very few by comparison to Islam, have committed acts of violence in the name of their faith, it is certainly the case that they have done so DESPITE the actual teachings of their faith and never in keeping with it. The same simply isn't true of Islam.

We also need to be careful in pointing out wrong doings by Christians as if they had religious motives. Christianity has more followers than any other faith. It is just as unreasonable to point to one's Christianity in most cases as it is to one's skin color.

Most acts of terror committed by Christians are the acts of lone but jobs and as stated are never in keeping with the tenants of Christianity - not even arguable. This just isn't the case with the thousands of acts of terror, honor killings and other atrocities committed pretty much daily by Muslims. Acts that are widely applauded by much of the Muslim world. I have never seen overwhelming worldwide support for a mentally disturbed Christian who murders an abortion doctor.

The statistics on this subject are overwhelming and support what I am saying beyond question. And given that we have the internet, this information is readily available to all who wishes to find it. Anyone who chooses to simply ignore all this and to ignore the obvious statistical data is in fact guilty of everything I mentioned in the OP. I have demonstrated this through this explanation, and I fail to see how anyone can deny it.

There are vast differences between religions. And yes, all ideas that inspire passion can motivate men toward violence. Religion, like politics, is such an idea and therefor has such potential. But to label them all as being equally dangerous based on that fact alone is simply wrong and a failing of logic in many ways.

RickWhite · Apr 21, 2010

Oh, and BTW Padawan, the picture you posted in of a Monk who set himself on fire in protest of the oppression they suffer at the hands of their Communist rulers. That is how Buddhists protest, they harm themselves.

If you are going to post stuff - at least make an attempt to understand what you are posting.

Padawanbater2 · Apr 21, 2010

I'm in kind of a rush right now, I'll get more in depth with this later.

RickWhite said:
I believe that all religions hold great teachings from which we can learn a great deal about ourselves and our own lives both in terms of individuals and collectively.

I agree.

So when one asks if everything in the Bible is true, I must first ask how one defines truth.

"Truth" isn't subjective. That's what makes it the truth. Similar to why facts are facts. Everything in the Bible can't possibly be true. Just like how everything in the Bible can't possibly be false. Information in the Bible is both true and false, that's the problem.

Is it true that Noah had two of every living thing in an ark he built himself by hand, of course not. Is the take home message of the story true - more than likely.

What moral did you get from the Noah's arc story?

Did all people descend genetically from one man and one woman - of course not. Should we recognize that with knowledge comes a great capacity for evil and that we must be cognizant of this fact? Yes, I believe that is true.

Why do we need religion to remind us that with knowledge comes a great capacity for evil?

As with all ideas that inspire passion, religion can be a tremendous motivator. It can motive people to be better people and better citizens and it can drive people apart.

Exactly! Why would we keep a system that even allows for the possibility of driving people apart? Especially given the cost we pay.

Most, (Islam being the one notable question) are centered around the question of how to make better people.

I disagree with that. People know how to be good people. We were good people before religion ever came along, and now we have the actual data and facts to back up why it's good for our species to be moral to each other.

Do I believe all the stories in the Old Testament are true? Certainly not in a literal sense. But, are they correct in a moral sense? I say most are.

You believe most of the OLD TESTAMENT is correct in a moral sense?

You ask how I can prove this - take all the precepts of Judaism and imagine what a society would look like were everyone to live by their opposites.

That proves the old testament is correct? :confused:

As a result, much of what is now practiced in Christianity is more a product of this than of actual scripture. That, and not scripture is the reason for most of the things you take issue with.

I take issue with the fact that people use religion to justify their actions (or the actions of others).

You and I both agree, many people can interpret it many different ways, which leads to all kinds of situations people can then call right. Without that, I wouldn't have any issue with religion at all. Do you understand?

Of particular importance, is the fact that there is nothing in the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity that condone violence.

You just mentioned the OT was mostly morally correct. That is riddled with violence.

In Islam, to die in a Jihad or holy war (which is any war that increase the dominance of Islam) is considered the single most noble act a person can do. One who performs such an act is promised 72 virgins in heaven and their family becomes essentially royalty.

Is it not "honorable" to die for your country here as well? Christianity reinforces this idea, does it not? Honorable to protect your homeland, your nation where your religion resides. It would make sense for preachers and other religious figures to promote these kinds of ideas as it would ensure protection and prosperity for the religion itself. Your country falls to an enemy power, and chances are your religion will too. 72 virgins or eternal paradise? Both have their appealing bits.

In conclusion, while all faiths have their zealots, and can inspire great passion including acts of violence, Islam is unique in two ways. One is the fact that a great many Muslims do believe that their religion justifies violence and can make legitimate arguments to that end. And two, the sheer number and extent of the violence and oppression in Muslim society that is unparalleled anywhere else. Muslim countries still practice slaver to this day, not despite their religion but specifically in keeping with it. In fact Islam teaches than non-Muslims are the same as animals.

How many Muslims are "a great many", and when does that number go from a few lone religious nutjobs to justifiably saying it's a representation of the entire religion?

China is the biggest slave nation today, not Muslim. Also, slavery exists in countries with dominant western religions. Just wanted to point that out.

While some Christians, mostly in ancient times and very few by comparison to Islam, have committed acts of violence in the name of their faith, it is certainly the case that they have done so DESPITE the actual teachings of their faith and never in keeping with it. The same simply isn't true of Islam.

It's not a comparison game though. Which one kills more people is worse. No, it's "they both kill people, both are horrible". Both allow this stuff to happen.

We also need to be careful in pointing out wrong doings by Christians as if they had religious motives. Christianity has more followers than any other faith. It is just as unreasonable to point to one's Christianity in most cases as it is to one's skin color.

Not at all. Skin color doesn't give anyone justification for harming another person.

Most acts of terror committed by Christians are the acts of lone but jobs and as stated are never in keeping with the tenants of Christianity - not even arguable.

That is irrelevant. The fact is they think they are following it. All of them.

This just isn't the case with the thousands of acts of terror, honor killings and other atrocities committed pretty much daily by Muslims.

Islam is horrible, but like I said, it's not a blame game.

RickWhite said:
Oh, and BTW Padawan, the picture you posted in of a Monk who set himself on fire in protest of the oppression they suffer at the hands of their Communist rulers. That is how Buddhists protest, they harm themselves.

I know dude, but you asked "how is Buddhism dangerous"?

It looked pretty dangerous to that guy.. lol

just a joke man, just a joke.

RickWhite · Apr 21, 2010

Padawan, I don't know what else I can tell you. Your responses are are very childish and argumentative and I'm sure that no matter how well I explain things you can continue this pattern. Your intentions are not to open your mind and learn, but merely to bash religion at all costs regardless of how unreasonable you are in doing so.

So yes, if you want to make the point that it is conceivably possible that any religion could lead to violence regardless of how minute the actual likelihood may be, I'm sure the point can be made.

One could also make the point that because a baby once rode a Big-wheel over a cliff, Big-wheels are just as dangerous as motorcycles. And because people have been killed by dogs, it must be true that Tigers are no more dangerous than dogs. All animals can be dangerous just like all religions can be.

So, as far as the examples above are valid, I guess your point about all religions being dangerous is also valid. For that matter, aren't all people dangerous? Maybe we should do away with all people. Interesting.

I guess career felons are no more dangerous than nuns because both are people and all people can be dangerous. And nuns have that whole religion thing.

Yep, you have certainly made some brilliant points.

Padawanbater2 · Apr 22, 2010

RickWhite said:
So yes, if you want to make the point that it is conceivably possible that any religion could lead to violence regardless of how minute the actual likelihood may be, I'm sure the point can be made.

Does lead to. And you still have not answered why we need religion today. If we don't need it, like I believe we don't, and it brings us so much trouble, then why keep it? Answer that. :shock:

So, as far as the examples above are valid, I guess your point about all religions being dangerous is also valid. For that matter, aren't all people dangerous? Maybe we should do away with all people. Interesting.

I guess career felons are no more dangerous than nuns because both are people and all people can be dangerous. And nuns have that whole religion thing.

Yep, you have certainly made some brilliant points.

Physical harm is not the only kind of harm that can be committed. The teachings of both Christianity and Islam are harmful to the mind, especially for young children. Both religions are dangerous, and it's obvious. Take a look around the world, all of our major problems either stem directly from a religious foundation or are being prevented from being solved because of some religious reason.

Answer these questions from my last post please;

Why do we need religion to remind us that with knowledge comes a great capacity for evil?

You believe most of the OLD TESTAMENT is correct in a moral sense?

As a result, much of what is now practiced in Christianity is more a product of this than of actual scripture. That, and not scripture is the reason for most of the things you take issue with.

I take issue with the fact that people use religion to justify their actions (or the actions of others).

You and I both agree, many people can interpret it many different ways, which leads to all kinds of situations people can then call right. Without that, I wouldn't have any issue with religion at all. Do you understand?

Keenly2 · Apr 22, 2010

RickWhite said:
Padawan, I don't know what else I can tell you. Your responses are are very childish and argumentative

ahahaha the irony

RickWhite · Apr 22, 2010

Padawanbater2 said:
Does lead to. And you still have not answered why we need religion today. If we don't need it, like I believe we don't, and it brings us so much trouble, then why keep it? Answer that.

Why? You have made it abundantly clear that the philosophical value of the worlds great religions are beyond your grasp. Answering this question would be wasted on you.

Physical harm is not the only kind of harm that can be committed. The teachings of both Christianity and Islam are harmful to the mind, especially for young children. Both religions are dangerous, and it's obvious. Take a look around the world, all of our major problems either stem directly from a religious foundation or are being prevented from being solved because of some religious reason.

That is absolute nonsense. Again, you are making statements about things you know nothing about and that you can not possibly back up. In fact, your views are so asinine, I'm not really even interested in hearing you try to explain them.

Answer these questions from my last post please;

Why do we need religion to remind us that with knowledge comes a great capacity for evil?

You believe most of the OLD TESTAMENT is correct in a moral sense?

I'm not going to waste my time answering two dozen idiotic come backs. Again, you are obviously incapable of grasping the answers, so why should I bother.

I take issue with the fact that people use religion to justify their actions (or the actions of others).

You and I both agree, many people can interpret it many different ways, which leads to all kinds of situations people can then call right. Without that, I wouldn't have any issue with religion at all. Do you understand?

What I understand is that you are using faulty logic. I fully understand that all religions are subject to interpretation and have the potential to be perverted and used to justify wrong doing.

Can you understand that this is irrelevant? It is irrelevant because the same thing is true of everything in life. Should we also do away with tools because most can be used as a weapon? After all, you could bash someone's head in with a hammer or stab someone with a screwdriver, right? So if I said that all tools are dangerous weapons and ought to be illegal would that make sense? Can you not see that it is the same argument? And you are a big fan of Socialist programs. I can't even think of too many ideas as historically dangerous as Socialism - just open a history book. You have Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. If anything can be used for evil, it is Socialism.

Everything in life can be twisted and used for evil. Have you ever heard the reasons people give for stealing from their employer? Thieves have an uncanny ability to rationalize their actions.

With regard to religion, one really has to look at the actual statistics. If you look at Christianity, what you would find is that the good vastly outweighs the bad. I know you think otherwise, and that is unfortunate. But, if you want to make your first attempt at being a scholarly person, you should really look into it with an open mind and seek out some objective sources. A good percentage of people fully believe that all of our morals descend from Judao-Christian philosophy and without these teachings, what is right would just depend on where you stand. I don't necessarily share that view, but I do believe that this is true for the average person who is not capable of understanding the complex subject of moral reason.

Now to be sure, bad things have been done in the name of Christianity. but, again it is not necessarily reasonable to blame the faith for people's poor understanding of it. It would be just as unfair to blame rock music for the wrong doings of a teenager.

But the evidence of the good Christianity has brought is all around you. Our culture is largely a product of it and it produces a tremendous amount of charity.

Now when we get into Islam, the game changes. When we look at the statistics involving Islam what we see is an enormous amount of violence being perpetrated in the name of Islam, and arguably in keeping with it. Another interesting thing about Islam is that aside from sexual oppression, there is little evidence of anything positive coming from it. A look at Muslim cultures reveals this.

But, you obviously hold some serious deep resentment of religion. It seems as though you have been exposed to some real radical, mean spirited Bible thumpers and have reacted by forming a hatred of it. All I can say is that wisdom is about understanding that there are realities and truths in life that are outside of what you have personally experienced. You have not seen the good that religion has done and continues to do and you see only the bad. Perhaps one day you will grow to develop the wisdom to see that your opinions are merely a product of your own limited experiences.

Prot3us1` · Apr 22, 2010

I could give 2 hoots about the subject at hand...but is there a point to this thread?

Honestly...is there ANYTHING either of you could say, that would cause the other to change their position? On top of that, even if there was..would either of you admit it now.after all these back and forths...you have each been saying the other is wrong so STRONGLY that at this point in time anyone changing their opinion is going to just be buried in shame..so we all know neither will admit it...

Therefore this thread only serves to have a back and forth between the 2 of you...something im sure you could accomplish in private...

Of course if you WANT people to see this back and forth, and all the big words and have them think of you both as "driven intellectuals" then continue...but showboating is hardly polite, and you both are trying to come across as distinguished...one in his knowledge of religion..which SEEMS to be real and well studied...then the other with science...

Well heres something for both of you:

In science everything is binary..this makes for a very CLEAN and EFFICIENT system. Its either true of false. The experiment worked or failed...if it did neither its not over yet.
In religion everything is dynamic..if you cant explain something by PROVING it you will try to use "precedence" to gain believers. (precedence being in the writings..learn from those mistakes made in the writing.)

Im not counting extremists as religious..blowing yourself up isn't religion its fanaticism. Mass suicide isnt religion, its cult...no Creator wants Their Creation to damage itself...

The thing is...If science is right then the saying "do what you have always don, and you will get what you have always got" has to be true...If you always do the experiment the same way, you MUST always get the same result. How then, did the big bang occur..SOMETHING changed...how did something change without something there to change it...this is SCIENTIFIC PROOF that SOMETHING caused the series of events that led to our race.

But if religion is right, then ALL science is a lie. It is a sin. The very act of studying science is a sin...If you believe in your deity you have no need to "figure things out"..your deity will provide. (precedence - adam and eve). So when you study that animal you must have questioned it..and questioning it is questioning a creation...what right is that of yours as a child of religion?

They cant both be right, they cant both be wrong...they MUST each be BOTH right and wrong. As Padawan already stated...

I think you are both taking everything that's said personally, and really you are just insulting each other and trying to vaguely mask it under the pretense of debating such a controversial topic.

After all, if its not personal you could both allow the other to live how they choose..neither of your beliefs REQUIRE the other to believe it also...so unless theres something to prove theres nothing here but a spectacle you are both putting on...

I am immune to your flames..I believe in science..I understand WHY religion works (but not the details). Science works because you can see the result. Religion works because we have the ability to take something someone says to us in a conversation, then integrate that data and act upon it as if we observed it ourselves...for example:

Science:
Man puts hand in flames..he feels pain. He wonders why he felt pain. He puts his hand back in the fire and now he knows. Fire is pain.

Religion:
Man reads a book about other men who touched fire, doesnt believe it...sticks his hand in the fire and from this moment on he TRUSTS the book no matter what. He learned not that fire burns, but that going against the book causes pain. (convert)

Another man reads a book about the first man and never doubts it. He will never put his hand in fire. (raised full religious)

Who is really the smarter here? obviously the man who never burns his hand...HOWEVER the man who believes everything he is told, or reads never lives his life. The man who burnt his hand will heal..and no doubt come to use fire as a tool...the man who is afraid of fire will eat raw meat forever.

prot

blazin256 · Apr 22, 2010

omg this is bs, i had a nice comment all laid out but this shit likes to log out if youre inactive for five fucking minutes. but to the op. your own arguments are pointless. give me examples to prove the comments you dispute are anything else. when someone makes those comments its your job if you dont agree to ask them why they feel that way. and what good can come of a faith that wants to kill you if you mock their prophet? like what south park did to mohammed. and as for politics and govenment
https://www.rollitup.org/politics/324022-545-people.html
that pretty much says it all

Padawanbater2 · Apr 23, 2010

RickWhite said:
Why? You have made it abundantly clear that the philosophical value of the worlds great religions are beyond your grasp. Answering this question would be wasted on you.

I'm not going to waste my time answering two dozen idiotic come backs. Again, you are obviously incapable of grasping the answers, so why should I bother.

Dude, they're legitimate questions. I suspect you're avoiding answering them because you can't answer them. There's nothing wrong with admitting that either.

You said "Should we recognize that with knowledge comes a great capacity for evil and that we must be cognizant of this fact? Yes, I believe that is true." So I asked you why we need religion for this - to recognize that fact? That seems like a reasonable question to me...

Also, you've already acknowledged organized religion can bring great amounts of harm upon mankind. So I asked is there another way to get the philosophical morals that have foundations in religious teachings without religion? Do you simply not see another way for human beings to be moral individuals without believing in a god or an afterlife? Do you understand what that says about you, as a person? Think hard about that..
[FONT=Verdana,Ariel]

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious
affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of
inmates per religion category:

Response Number %
---------------------------- --------
Catholic 29267 39.164%
Protestant 26162 35.008%
Muslim 5435 7.273%
American Indian 2408 3.222%
Nation 1734 2.320%
Rasta 1485 1.987%
Jewish 1325 1.773%
Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
Moorish 1066 1.426%
Buddhist 882 1.180%
Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
Adventist 621 0.831%
Orthodox 375 0.502%
Mormon 298 0.399%
Scientology 190 0.254%
Atheist 156 0.209%
Hindu 119 0.159%
Santeria 117 0.157%
Sikh 14 0.019%
Bahai 9 0.012%
Krishna 7 0.009%

[/FONT]

RickWhite said:
That is absolute nonsense. Again, you are making statements about things you know nothing about and that you can not possibly back up. In fact, your views are so asinine, I'm not really even interested in hearing you try to explain them.

It's really pretty simple, religion gives people moral justification for the horrible acts they (or someone they support) commit against other human beings. Without this (false) justification, people would not, could not commit such acts. People could not be in positions of influence reinforcing false ideas at the highest possible authority, God. I'm sorry Rick, I really don't know how to make it any clearer than that.. :leaf:

RickWhite said:
I fully understand that all religions are subject to interpretation and have the potential to be perverted and used to justify wrong doing.

Then why do we need them?

RickWhite said:
Can you understand that this is irrelevant? It is irrelevant because the same thing is true of everything in life. Should we also do away with tools because most can be used as a weapon? After all, you could bash someone's head in with a hammer or stab someone with a screwdriver, right? So if I said that all tools are dangerous weapons and ought to be illegal would that make sense? Can you not see that it is the same argument?

It is not the same argument. BILLIONS of people do not use hammers as a weapon, do they? BILLIONS of people do not use hammers to justify why they beat a persons head in. Hammers don't make people deny credible science. Hammers don't make people discriminate or hate.

RickWhite said:
And you are a big fan of Socialist programs. I can't even think of too many ideas as historically dangerous as Socialism - just open a history book. You have Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. If anything can be used for evil, it is Socialism.

When have you ever seen me support socialism?

Everything in life can be twisted and used for evil.

Organized religion has too much control over non believers lives. Do you understand that? Your statement is irrelevant, and says a lot.

RickWhite said:
With regard to religion, one really has to look at the actual statistics. If you look at Christianity, what you would find is that the good vastly outweighs the bad.

I've had to bring this up at least three or four different times with you now, it's almost like you're not even reading my posts. Physical harm is NOT the ONLY kind of harm that can be committed! Have you ever heard of mental abuse? Coercive persuasion? Brainwashing?

How can you take an honest look at some of these people and say they're perfectly OK? Is it OK for people to actually believe human beings walked with dinosaurs? Is it OK for people to believe climate change doesn't exist? It's not. These things are not OK, they affect themselves with these beliefs and society at large. It's beneficial for the individual and in turn for the whole society in which they live for them to be as informed as possible. I'm open to objections to that statement, but I can't think of any.

The good vastly outweighs the bad? That's where it comes down to each individuals interpretation of what "good" and "bad" are. For example, I believe it is bad that we have a system of economic classes based on the monetary earnings of a person, you probably don't. You and I have different ideas of what "good" and "bad" are, which is why you think the good coming from religion is heavier than the bad, and I don't. But you think the Old Testament is "morally correct".

RickWhite said:
A good percentage of people fully believe that all of our morals descend from Judao-Christian philosophy and without these teachings, what is right would just depend on where you stand. I don't necessarily share that view, but I do believe that this is true for the average person who is not capable of understanding the complex subject of moral reason.

All of our morals did not descend from Judao-Christian philosophy, clearly. It wouldn't matter if everyone believed that, it still wouldn't make it true. WTF do you mean "not capable of understanding the complex subject of moral reason."?

RickWhite said:
Now to be sure, bad things have been done in the name of Christianity. but, again it is not necessarily reasonable to blame the faith for people's poor understanding of it. It would be just as unfair to blame rock music for the wrong doings of a teenager.

Dude, again you fail to see the direct connection between the way a person acts and their faith. Rock music is not influencing a persons every decision. It doesn't enforce propaganda. Of course not all religious people become dangerous killers, that is not what I'm saying at all. I have been saying the entire time that because of religion we have a society that thinks it's OK to kill another person thousands of miles away if our government says we should, without it, nobody would have justification for the actions of our government and they would not be able to do such things.

War should only ever be a defensive act, and nobody ever needs to ask themselves if acting in self defense was the "right thing to do".

RickWhite said:
But the evidence of the good Christianity has brought is all around you. Our culture is largely a product of it and it produces a tremendous amount of charity.

Hypothetical scenario... If I kidnapped you and held you in my basement for a week with only water and bread to eat, then on the eighth day brought you upstairs to meet my family, take a shower and eat a huge home cooked meal with us... Am I a "charitable" guy?

Just wondering...

RickWhite said:
Now when we get into Islam, the game changes. When we look at the statistics involving Islam what we see is an enormous amount of violence being perpetrated in the name of Islam, and arguably in keeping with it. Another interesting thing about Islam is that aside from sexual oppression, there is little evidence of anything positive coming from it. A look at Muslim cultures reveals this.

How many times do I need to say it man? :wall:

If there's anything you and I do agree on, it's Islam.

RickWhite said:
But, you obviously hold some serious deep resentment of religion. It seems as though you have been exposed to some real radical, mean spirited Bible thumpers and have reacted by forming a hatred of it. All I can say is that wisdom is about understanding that there are realities and truths in life that are outside of what you have personally experienced. You have not seen the good that religion has done and continues to do and you see only the bad. Perhaps one day you will grow to develop the wisdom to see that your opinions are merely a product of your own limited experiences.

I do see the good and I don't deny most religious people are honest, nice, genuine people. I don't think you understand my position at all making statements like these. Regular religious people aren't the problem, never have been. It's people who use religion against believers to benefit themselves, it's the concept of passing off responsibility onto a god and the justification for horrible acts that people commit in the name of an invisible imaginary being that is the issue.

Proteus, I'll respond to your post tomorrow, I'm short on time after replying to Rick.

It's all BS and other stupid stuff.

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