Judges to decide: Can religious confessions be used against you?

CinnamonGirl said:

Well, we would both be wrong apparently the law does regulate religion--unbelievable!:

• Clergy
  • 1. The clergy-penitent' privilege under Michigan law provides as follows:No minister of the gospel, or priest of any denomination whatsoever, or duly accredited Christian Science practitioner, shall be allowed to disclose any confessions made to him in his professional character, in the course of discipline enjoined by the rules or practice of such denomination.2. The case for confidentiality is clearest in a confessional setting.
    • a. Counseling sessions involving standard clinical counseling methods, standard clinically recognized mental conditions, or non-clergy are not covered by the privilege.b. When the privilege does not apply, the counselor may be compelled to disclose the personal secrets of the client.
    Comment: It is not clear what is meant by counseling which is "in the course of discipline" of a cleric. Most likely, this is not a reference to the narrow circumstance of when a person (the client) may be subject to formal church 'discipline,' but rather refers to any communications in the course of religious practice according to the rules and discipline of the church which the cleric is bound to observe. However, there is no case law interpreting this language.3. For counseling activities performed by non-licensed and non-ordained counselors, or spiritual counseling performed by clerics which is non-confessional in nature, the issue of confidentiality will largely depend on the existence of an implied or express contract requiring confidentiality which is established at the commencement of the counseling relationship.

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Wow! Learn something new everyday

Justin00 said:

what everyone is over looking is there are a lot of people who find help and change there lives by counciling with therapists and ministers.

removing therapists and ministers will not stop the crime only cause them to escalate because the ppl have no one to turn to for help.

i'm not saying there crimes are fine, all i'm saying is they help reduce crime by helping some ppl, removing them will only cause those ppl to not recieve help and continue to commit crimes.

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I agree. Stuff like this will instill more fear and the people who will suffer are the ones who anchor their lives on confession, religion etc...and the dominoes will fall from there. Bad deal all around

Justin00 said:

what everyone is over looking is there are a lot of people who find help and change there lives by counciling with therapists and ministers.

removing therapists and ministers will not stop the crime only cause them to escalate because the ppl have no one to turn to for help.

i'm not saying there crimes are fine, all i'm saying is they help reduce crime by helping some ppl, removing them will only cause those ppl to not recieve help and continue to commit crimes.

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But wont forcing criminals to openly deal with their issues help them, well more people that is. I'm sorry i'm a catholic but i can't justify a priest not being allowed to confirm he was told by said person that they did comit a crime, being sorry for calling your sister a bitch and parking in a handicap spot are not even close to rape or murder. I think the line between "sin" and crime are the issue.

What confuses me is that the person confesing the sin has done something wrong, why is it better to keep it quiet if the goal is to help them. How is the person keeping their lips closed doing any good, oh wait they listened and that will help

this is bullshit. i'm not religious nor do i give a shit what goes on in churches, but this is the fucking united states of america.

this is just a skewed freedom vs. security debate, no different than a typical 4th amendment argument. i might have corpses in my basement, but if i don't give you probable cause, it's none of your fucking business. that's freedom. it sounds like some people care more about punishing the guilty than preserving rights for the rest of us.

the reason why criminals are allowed to go free sometimes is because we as a people recognize that there are certain things that we must not give up in order to continue our way of life. the argument that churches provide a safe haven for people to skirt the law is false and laughable. as far as the law is concerned confessing to a priest DIDN'T FUCKING HAPPEN.

if i confessed to a priest that i shit my pants, and he told everyone, and i became a laughingstock on my block, can i sue him in a court of law? does the court have a dog in that fight?

april said:

But wont forcing criminals to openly deal with their issues help them, well more people that is. I'm sorry i'm a catholic but i can't justify a priest not being allowed to confirm he was told by said person that they did comit a crime, being sorry for calling your sister a bitch and parking in a handicap spot are not even close to rape or murder. I think the line between "sin" and crime are the issue.

What confuses me is that the person confesing the sin has done something wrong, why is it better to keep it quiet if the goal is to help them. How is the person keeping their lips closed doing any good, oh wait they listened and that will help

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your looking at it from a misleading view point (IMO). your looking at the direct effect of a priest or therapist ratting each individual person out. the real issue is that if the confidence is lost no one will seek help from people like priests and therapists any more and will continue to have the same problems over and over again until the law finally catches them. how many victims will it take?

the idea here is not to let ppl get away with sick crimes but rather to operate in a way the law can't in an effort to make changes to counciling and support rather then punishment. making priests and therapists testify against there church or customers is not going to allow this great revelation of crimes to the cops, it going to cause there to be no place you can go to get help for what may be a real problem, with out fear of of being punished. So then we are left with sick criminal finding there own way to deal with there problems which obviously has lead to crimes in the first place.

i feel the 2 should be kept separate because allowing this will not help reduce crime but rather it will cause criminals to not seek help.

i understand the priests position but what happens next week when lil Billy has touched a yournger girl in a weird way is having weird feeling that he doesn't understand now.... but now he is afraid to talk to his minister about it because he saw what happen to the last boy who tried to get help. so lil Billy just tryign to deal with it his self, and well lets say it doesn't go so well, and i think its safe to say that in at least some of the cases it wont, and eventually rapes a girl, and now Billy is distraut with what he has done and knows he needs help.... but still he doesn't want to go to prison.... so who can he talk to???? Soooo things digress as they typically do..... and he has moved up to rape and murder because its easier if you just kill them and get rid of the body right?

so now my final question is was it better or worse that lil Billy didn't have any where to turn for help other than satisfying his misunderstood needs? I think at that point that preacher is going to have to assume some of the responsibility for the later rapes and murders that may have been avoidable.

and in the end..... the preacher breaking his convenient led to one arrest, but many many many future crimes that possibly could have been avoided.




And finally April: "but wont forcing criminals to openly deal with their issues help them" - would you like to willingly come clean and receive punishment for all crimes (unpunished as of yet by the law) that you have committed in your life? ....every time you have broken a law.... every time you have speeded, every time you have littered, every tme you smoked or possessed pot before it was legal where you were...ect?

and one more thing.... do modern prisons really "help" ppl, or just punish them?

A a priest threatened to make public you shit yourself, just tell him you'll say he gave you a blowjob in the confessional booth

obijohn said:

A a priest threatened to make public you shit yourself, just tell him you'll say he gave you a blowjob in the confessional booth

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Well played!

The most confusing thing about this case for me is the fact that the State is punishing the pastor for turning in a criminal In most cases a counselor would be prosecuted for not turning in a criminal. . . . so the State wants to prosecute a pastor for violating the confidentiality of the rapist of a 9 year old girl?? And how does this make the world a better place?

I don't believe there are enough people who:
a. commit crimes, then
b. go to church, and one with a confession option, then
c. make use of the confession option, and include the crime in the confession

How many times a year could this possibly happen? Surely there are better battles to fight. Religion in general is on a downswing, if I have to have my rights infringed upon, I for one am glad they're doing it in a church. Mostly because I don't go there.

CinnamonGirl said:

The most confusing thing about this case for me is the fact that the State is punishing the pastor for turning in a criminal In most cases a counselor would be prosecuted for not turning in a criminal. . . . so the State wants to prosecute a pastor for violating the confidentiality of the rapist of a 9 year old girl?? And how does this make the world a better place?

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Rarely do laws actually do anything positive for the world. The vast majority are senseless, confusing bullshit designed to provide their side with a bankroll, because taxes just aren't enough. If you view our system in general from a financial standpoint it makes total sense.

@ the same time I doubt many ppl confess sins worthy of life in prison.

april said:

But wont forcing criminals to openly deal with their issues help them, well more people that is. I'm sorry i'm a catholic but i can't justify a priest not being allowed to confirm he was told by said person that they did comit a crime, being sorry for calling your sister a bitch and parking in a handicap spot are not even close to rape or murder. I think the line between "sin" and crime are the issue.

What confuses me is that the person confesing the sin has done something wrong, why is it better to keep it quiet if the goal is to help them. How is the person keeping their lips closed doing any good, oh wait they listened and that will help

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Hahaha. I see what you're saying. But...I really need what I tell my priest to stay between me and him lol. Otherwise I can't tell him stuff. And I need to tell him stuff or i'll go to hell. It's important.

RainbowBrite86 said:

Hahaha. I see what you're saying. But...I really need what I tell my priest to stay between me and him lol. Otherwise I can't tell him stuff. And I need to tell him stuff or i'll go to hell. It's important.

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My inbox duals as a confessional, oh the dirt I have on RIU members rlmfao hmm did i take an oath?? lmfao

comeon guys. The boy said a little too much, that's all. If only the little pedoboy junior would have gone to a church outside of his town for confessing one time, would have been a better deal in the end. Poor young pussy

It comes down to the gov owning us - even the churches . Police who dont know what police work is so they go around the laws are just plain lazy . I have no love for rapists or murderers , however it seems almost every day we have less and less rights and money - regular people like us are getting squeezed to the max in every way . Pretty soon the gov will control every aspect of our lives .WTF . I'm just waiting for hitler to come out and march us all into an oven .

I think they work you to death and then have other tired guys wheel your ass into the oven.

JohnnyGreenfingers said:

I think they work you to death and then have other tired guys wheel your ass into the oven.

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Yeah they dont like it when your self employed or a person who thinks for yourself . They want to run our asses into the ground .

april said:

My inbox duals as a confessional, oh the dirt I have on RIU members rlmfao hmm did i take an oath?? lmfao

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I have to confess to a holy man. He's the only one who can make me feel guilty the way I should.

Where does the term "Glory hole" come from ?

I have no idea lol i'm not really Catholic.