Howard Stern
Well-Known Member
subed I want to see what comes out from this! I may do a side by side on my next beans just to see! Cool info! Thanks!
Laser Irradiation of Seeds for Improved Growth
- Thread starter ganjaballz
- Start date
sguardians2
Well-Known Member
Using no technique to get tap roots to emerge, I just irradiated 6 big bud seeds, 1 onyx and 1 himalayan blue diesel seed for about 40 seconds each. The laser used is part of a laser distance calculator thingy that is used to measure distances from one point to any flat surface, by Ryobi tools, that I dug up out of my garage.
Planted in Jiffy peat pellets about 1/4 inch deep. The big bud seeds all popped at exactly 54 hours, and the other two look like they may in less than 72.
I'll keep you posted.
Oh, by the way, I also used Shultz TakeRook rooting hormone powder in the water that I soaked the peat pellets with.
Planted in Jiffy peat pellets about 1/4 inch deep. The big bud seeds all popped at exactly 54 hours, and the other two look like they may in less than 72.
I'll keep you posted.
Oh, by the way, I also used Shultz TakeRook rooting hormone powder in the water that I soaked the peat pellets with.
littleflavio
Well-Known Member
you know whats so funny about these forum? is that we are stoners and we do learn a lot of shit and most people who thinks that stoners knows shit are fags...were like doctors and shit u know, we do something good for the community not just smokin some bowl of ganja. thats great!!!
i8urbabi
Well-Known Member
so does it matter whether the laser is red or green? i have a green 20mw. It can project a beam pretty far and makes for fun light saber duels lol. The next step up from mine (from ssame company) will pop balloons. Does the color have much to do with the process as opposed to power?
The Lurker
Member
Thanks sg, not sure that's going to do much though. I'm assuming that was a red laser also? Most lasers in distance measuring tools are rated at less than 1mW, even for the ones that run a couple hundred bucks. The ones you'll find in laser pointers used in business tend to run 3-5mw, sometimes more - you'll want to check the specs of whatever you're using. The latter would be better for these purposes.
Most of the studies referenced in the literature gb is referring to used helium-neon lasers at 5-10mW power output and emitting at 632.8nm, their standard frequency. At least one study testing irradiation on seed and seedling growth using 5mW lasers treated seeds for a full 5 minutes per seed. They also pre-treated seeds for 3hrs by soaking them in water and the ambient temp was 25C. The study referenced by gb used a 10mW laser for 40, 60, and 100 seconds respectively.
I'd use at least a 5mW laser if you're going to do this at all, and treat as per the above. Note your treatment times go down substantially at higher mW. Don't want to denature those glycoprotein complexes!
Note that not all studies have shown a positive effect on growth; some have also had an inhibitory effect, for some species and mW outputs. Don't test your entire seed stock using this method!
The primary theory(ies) behind this methodology involve both 1) A (small to moderate amount of) heating of the seeds (and breaking of kinetic equilibrium via em), AND 2) A stimulation of the Phytochrome (Pr) response, which peaks out at 660nm. The lasers used so far run ~633nm, which they've pointed out is only about ~55% efficient in terms of Phytochrome's absorbance at that spectrum.
The reason most have used a helium-neon laser is they're widely available, and are efficient enough for their eventual intended use - i.e. commercial purposes. A 660nm laser should be even better; they're less common, but just do a search for them and you'll find some. Make sure it's at least 5mW, also...I noticed a few on eBay for marine use, but they were listed at <5mW...
You can TRY green and let us know what it does, but that goes against the second theory. However, it might provide some thermal stimulation as per 1), above - enough to make a noticeable difference.
I'd be careful irradiating any seeds at 20mW and above with any nm-output of laser for more than a few seconds. You don't want to COOK them(!), you just want the laser to stimulate Phytochrome and perhaps induce a very mild amount of thermal transfer.
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ganja: here's a few other studies you might be interested in, might save you about $35:
Influence of He–Ne laser irradiation on seeds thermodynamic parameters and seedlings growth of Isatis indogotica (PDF)
Representation of He-Ne laser irradiation effect on radish seeds with selected germination indices (PDF)
The second study references several others you might be interested in; see if Google can dig those up for you also. (Second had very small treatment times and was aimed at initial germination only)
Note that all germination is temperature-dependent; increasing the temp appears to show increased/enhanced activity and vitality with irradiated samples over the control group (up to a point). A minimum of 25C (77F) is a good idea, as with any germination and seedling growth you'd be doing of mj seeds.
Cheers all,
-TL
sguardians2
Well-Known Member
Good info, I have a laser pointer that produces 1 tiny beam when observing on a white background, at a distance of 1/2 inch. The laser I used covers about the same area but I noticed 6 separate beams all clustered in the same tiny space, also it seemed more intense than my laser pointer.
My results are, so far that seedlings popped in two days and 6 hrs, or 54 hrs, with no pre-germ treatment other than "irradiation", no pre-soak for tap root, just planted in jiffy peat pellets with root hormone powder added to the water. I've never had seeds germinate this fast no matter what other methods I've tried.
Maybe the 6 cluster beam is stronger than a single beam?
My results are, so far that seedlings popped in two days and 6 hrs, or 54 hrs, with no pre-germ treatment other than "irradiation", no pre-soak for tap root, just planted in jiffy peat pellets with root hormone powder added to the water. I've never had seeds germinate this fast no matter what other methods I've tried.
Maybe the 6 cluster beam is stronger than a single beam?
twistedwords
Well-Known Member
sguardians2 I hate to tell you but I get seeds to germinate in one day and ready to go on day 2 without irradiating.
sguardians2
Well-Known Member
Update:
Just as I suspected the last two seeds have popped, 72 hrs after planting. 100% germination rate!
I am very pleased with the results so far. We will have to see how these plants respond after they get big enough to transplant into my DWC/Bubbleponics set-up.
But my main interest in this irradiation treatment was germination time and rates, and so far I'm quite impressed.
Just as I suspected the last two seeds have popped, 72 hrs after planting. 100% germination rate!
I am very pleased with the results so far. We will have to see how these plants respond after they get big enough to transplant into my DWC/Bubbleponics set-up.
But my main interest in this irradiation treatment was germination time and rates, and so far I'm quite impressed.
sguardians2
Well-Known Member
What method do you use? And what does "ready to go" mean, ready to transplant? Your first set of true leaves in two days?
sguardians2
Well-Known Member
Anything?
You there?
Share?
Puff puff, pass?
You there?
Share?
Puff puff, pass?
Howard Stern
Well-Known Member
All my seeds from Nirvana I have gotten to crack and have a tap in less than 16 hrs. 100% of the time. Most are around 12 hrs. It has to due with genetics I am sure of. But I wanted to see a side by side with this lazer thing to see the veg growth difference.
My method that has been 100% germination is
7 hrs soak in distilled water shot glass, dark and around 80 degrees.
then paper towl method distilled water, dark 80 degrees.
Works every time then I stick them in the dirt 1/4 to 1/2 an inch under CFL's I water the dirt about an hour before I am ready to transplant, then I don't water again for around 5-7 days. They break dirt the next day without fail! I also have them in a humidity dome or have a bag over them.
My method that has been 100% germination is
7 hrs soak in distilled water shot glass, dark and around 80 degrees.
then paper towl method distilled water, dark 80 degrees.
Works every time then I stick them in the dirt 1/4 to 1/2 an inch under CFL's I water the dirt about an hour before I am ready to transplant, then I don't water again for around 5-7 days. They break dirt the next day without fail! I also have them in a humidity dome or have a bag over them.
The Lurker
Member
Excellent! What temperature are you using? I would note that some of the studies used a lens to spread the light over a large enough area to accommodate the seeds they were using, so perhaps a focused beam at a lower mW would have a similar effect.
And if you're happy with your germination rates then there's no reason for you to switch. Experimentation isn't for everyone.
Do me a favor though, and download and read the entire first report I linked above. Those seedlings were grown out to 24-25 days before being pulverized for the final quantitative measurements.
Not only was there an increase in germination activity, they also found a significant increase in overall vitality, chlorophyll synthesis, water utilization efficiency, and biomass compared with the control group, among other things. In other words, larger, healthier plants.
-----
So the positive results continued to occur far beyond initial germination. Might be interesting to grow out a few plants all the way to harvest using this and see if it works for mj also, no?
These studies have gone on in various capacities using light treatement since the early 80's, lasers are just the most recent version of this. The overall effects have been fairly well documented using different (non-mj) strains at this point. At least for commercial purposes, this has also shown evidence of:
1) Better germination % of older, more inviable seed stock
2) Better growth overall
If one can get better germination rates AND larger, healther plants by spending almost an entire minute per seed doing this, I'd say the return on investment (ROI) for the time and effort involved might be worth it - wouldn't you say?
Worth a try, at any rate.
Cheers,
-TL
sguardians2
Well-Known Member
sguardians2
Well-Known Member
I don't know the temperature, maybe room temperature? I've never measured the temparature of the laser.
I won't be able to compare grow rates this time, I was just attempting something new. But, if this turns out to be one of my best grows, I'll do a controlled experiment on my next grow, raspberry cough, to verify the results.
Here are the first photos, not very good quality on a 3.1 megapixel camera, I broke my viewer on my 10 megapixel camera, and I won't be getting a new one anytime soon so.....
ganjaballz
Member
Wow this thread woke up. I had some work issues so I took a bit of a forum break there.
The goals aren't just about germination - the studies pointed to all around benefits in the test plants, especially in growth and bloom. The study that was able to germinate seeds without water after laser treatment was VERY interesting but I'm not exactly rolling in seeds to play around with them.
I'm going to have to get some more seeds and do another test, I'm afraid. I've had a ton of issues with my hydro equipment and I don't know where I am in terms of a "controlled environment" to be able to claim fully clinical results. I can say the initial results were promising, especially in the accelerated germination and early stage growth. In the past few days I've run into a Ph level issue, rock wool "trash" in my growth medium and clogging my irrigation pipes and a short nute overdose (which I was able to correct in 12 hours time, including the color of the plants returning to normal which blew my mind). I've never seen a plant turn yellowish / green and then go back to normal in a few hours. It's like the treated plants are hyper responsive to the point of seeming "alive". (Yes they are alive but there are variations in there).
I wouldn't use lasers for full time supplemental lighting either - not unless they were moving and tied in with a proven LED system of some kind. I was thinking of just hand treating the plants for 30 seconds or so twice per day. (Sunup and sundown). The missing light frequencies in grow lights are the ones which interact with a plant's "time cycle" in the daily motion of the Sun. I've read that plants react to moonlight also, just not in ways we fully understand yet. An easy solution would be to take the plants outside, of course but we have all kinds of reasons for not being able to do so. My personal long term plan involves sun tubes and fiber optics with an attic grow room...
I think a red laser is required and as already posted, don't cook the little girls. If you have less power you can add more time unless the seed is covered with a very dark and thick outer layer. (I chose sees with light, semi translucent coatings thanks to only having those to choose from).
I'll add some pics here soon. The two plants I didn't treat are light years behind the treated plants. They are growing "normally" - the treated plants are just growing around twice as fast, IMO.
The goals aren't just about germination - the studies pointed to all around benefits in the test plants, especially in growth and bloom. The study that was able to germinate seeds without water after laser treatment was VERY interesting but I'm not exactly rolling in seeds to play around with them.
I'm going to have to get some more seeds and do another test, I'm afraid. I've had a ton of issues with my hydro equipment and I don't know where I am in terms of a "controlled environment" to be able to claim fully clinical results. I can say the initial results were promising, especially in the accelerated germination and early stage growth. In the past few days I've run into a Ph level issue, rock wool "trash" in my growth medium and clogging my irrigation pipes and a short nute overdose (which I was able to correct in 12 hours time, including the color of the plants returning to normal which blew my mind). I've never seen a plant turn yellowish / green and then go back to normal in a few hours. It's like the treated plants are hyper responsive to the point of seeming "alive". (Yes they are alive but there are variations in there).
I wouldn't use lasers for full time supplemental lighting either - not unless they were moving and tied in with a proven LED system of some kind. I was thinking of just hand treating the plants for 30 seconds or so twice per day. (Sunup and sundown). The missing light frequencies in grow lights are the ones which interact with a plant's "time cycle" in the daily motion of the Sun. I've read that plants react to moonlight also, just not in ways we fully understand yet. An easy solution would be to take the plants outside, of course but we have all kinds of reasons for not being able to do so. My personal long term plan involves sun tubes and fiber optics with an attic grow room...
I think a red laser is required and as already posted, don't cook the little girls. If you have less power you can add more time unless the seed is covered with a very dark and thick outer layer. (I chose sees with light, semi translucent coatings thanks to only having those to choose from).
I'll add some pics here soon. The two plants I didn't treat are light years behind the treated plants. They are growing "normally" - the treated plants are just growing around twice as fast, IMO.
Vento
Well-Known Member
Hi
I love stuff like this , I'm looking forward to seeing results from others AND Trying this myself ... Been needing an excuse to buy a Lazer for a long time ... For something other than just messing about .
If its a tool i can USE then it gives it more of a chance of being passed by The Bank Manager (The Wife hehe )
I would like to know more about Exposure Times per seed per Power ratio of the Lazers used ... Few seconds ?... 10 Minz ?
Also the Distence from the seed to fix the lazers , I had a vision after seeing this thread and reading the data , 3 suspended lazer unints attached to a rotating ring , Each lazer passing over a ring odf seeds for short periods of time , I could DIY a set up like this but would need to know more about the power output needed and the time of exposure and distence .
+REP for everyone involved in this experiment so far and for all the data produced ... Thanks guys
Subbed and excited
V
I love stuff like this , I'm looking forward to seeing results from others AND Trying this myself ... Been needing an excuse to buy a Lazer for a long time ... For something other than just messing about
.If its a tool i can USE then it gives it more of a chance of being passed by The Bank Manager (The Wife hehe )
I would like to know more about Exposure Times per seed per Power ratio of the Lazers used ... Few seconds ?... 10 Minz ?
Also the Distence from the seed to fix the lazers , I had a vision after seeing this thread and reading the data , 3 suspended lazer unints attached to a rotating ring , Each lazer passing over a ring odf seeds for short periods of time , I could DIY a set up like this but would need to know more about the power output needed and the time of exposure and distence .
+REP for everyone involved in this experiment so far and for all the data produced ... Thanks guys
Subbed and excited
V
ganjaballz
Member
The experiments I read about used 10 milliwatt, red lasers for an average of 20-40 seconds depending on the size of the seed. According to my calculations, a typical 5 mw, made in China hand held laser can be used for 40-60 seconds depending on the thickness of the seeds outer covering and how dark it is. A thin / light colored shell would be irradiated for less than 40 seconds with the laser held at least 1 inch away. (Lasers don't "throw" thermal energy to the focal point of the beam like a lens focused "normal" light source. The thermal energy is constant throughout the beam but the "energy" of the beam in terms of electrons pushing other electrons out of the way is stronger close to the focusing lens which can create more heat than we want or need). Lasers do have a terminus point where the energy of the beam begins to drop off though. Even a 5mw laser can push that energy out to a mile away depending on the atmospheric conditions though so for our purposes 1-2 inches away is fine.Hi
I would like to know more about Exposure Times per seed per Power ratio of the Lazers used ... Few seconds ?... 10 Minz ?
Also the Distence from the seed to fix the lazers , I had a vision after seeing this thread and reading the data , 3 suspended lazer unints attached to a rotating ring , Each lazer passing over a ring odf seeds for short periods of time , I could DIY a set up like this but would need to know more about the power output needed and the time of exposure and distence .
+REP for everyone involved in this experiment so far and for all the data produced ... Thanks guys
Subbed and excited
V
If you happen to have a "wicked" brand laser in red with a 50mw rating the irradiation time would be around 2-4 seconds and even then you
might" be cooking the seed more than stimulating it.
ganjaballz
Member
I thought I'd go over my theory on why this works (based on the success the real researchers have shown as my own experiment is still underway).
The goals of the research projects centered around using lasers to overcome adverse conditions in the initial stages. One of the best was meant to simulate a period of drought and for reasons they don't really explain they felt laser irradiation of the seeds would help the crops overcome the drought.
My personal theory is that the irradiation of the seed "might" simulate the adverse scenario of a seed dropping on dry soil. Perhaps there is a kind of "survival" mechanism in the seed that says - "OK, it's not dark and it's not moist but I'm detecting a lot of sunlight out there. I must be sitting on top of dry soil so I'm going to kick my germination into high gear and get a taproot down into the soil in a hurry".
It's already been shown that simulating various adverse conditions on our plants triggers certain favorable reactions in terms of growth and the chemical output of the flower stage. Maybe the irradiation tricks the seed into thinking it's starting off in a bad way and pushes it to germinate, grow and flower faster and "better". Maybe that brief exposure to the concentrated light source of the laser matches what a seed would go through sitting on top of dry soil in the sun for a day or two?
The goals of the research projects centered around using lasers to overcome adverse conditions in the initial stages. One of the best was meant to simulate a period of drought and for reasons they don't really explain they felt laser irradiation of the seeds would help the crops overcome the drought.
My personal theory is that the irradiation of the seed "might" simulate the adverse scenario of a seed dropping on dry soil. Perhaps there is a kind of "survival" mechanism in the seed that says - "OK, it's not dark and it's not moist but I'm detecting a lot of sunlight out there. I must be sitting on top of dry soil so I'm going to kick my germination into high gear and get a taproot down into the soil in a hurry".
It's already been shown that simulating various adverse conditions on our plants triggers certain favorable reactions in terms of growth and the chemical output of the flower stage. Maybe the irradiation tricks the seed into thinking it's starting off in a bad way and pushes it to germinate, grow and flower faster and "better". Maybe that brief exposure to the concentrated light source of the laser matches what a seed would go through sitting on top of dry soil in the sun for a day or two?
Spanishfly
Well-Known Member
Mine is green 532 nm (it is used for aligning an astronomical telescope - green is best for that) 50 mW - it is a LIGHT SABRE!!
I will give one of my seeds next year a couple of seconds, see how it reacts.
Pimprovising
Active Member
Ok ive been trying to find out on the internet something about budding with lasers......I just had this idea on my own about an hour ago and there is nothing on the dam internet...leave it to roll it up to make it happen!!! lol
PLEASE SOMEONE WHERE CAN I GET MORE INFO?
PLEASE SOMEONE WHERE CAN I GET MORE INFO?