Led design help

Rahz

Well-Known Member
From what source did you get the factor of 60? I've seen factors of 67, 68, and 69 tossed around, but this is the first time I've seen someone suggest 60.
This may be part of the issue. Here's a PPFD to LUX calculator I just found that has various LED options. When inputing 1000 PPFD with 3000K high CRI LED the LUX output is 52556 suggesting a conversion factor of 52.5

https://www.waveformlighting.com/horticulture/convert-ppfd-to-lux-online-calculator

Blurple has a conversion factor of 11.3.

Low CRI 6500K LED has a conversion factor of 74.6

I still think the center readings at 12" should be a bit higher, but without the reflectors this puts Sam's 30cm reading at about 1200 PPFD using 52.5 as the divider. With the reflectors in place it will provide some boost to the center readings.

I guess we'll find out in a few weeks when the par meter arrives.
 

Humple

Well-Known Member
This may be part of the issue. Here's a PPFD to LUX calculator I just found that has various LED options. When inputing 1000 PPFD with 3000K high CRI LED the LUX output is 52556 suggesting a conversion factor of 52.5

https://www.waveformlighting.com/horticulture/convert-ppfd-to-lux-online-calculator

Blurple has a conversion factor of 11.3.

Low CRI 6500K LED has a conversion factor of 74.6

I still think the center readings at 12" should be a bit higher, but without the reflectors this puts Sam's 30cm reading at about 1200 PPFD using 52.5 as the divider. With the reflectors in place it will provide some boost to the center readings.

I guess we'll find out in a few weeks when the par meter arrives.
Interesting. Shame that site doesn't specify what CRI they're calling "high". And then there's a space factor as well, isn't there? As PPFD is per meter squared, should we not correct for a space either smaller or larger than one meter by one meter?
 

InTheValley

Well-Known Member
the lower the Kelvin, the lower the factor. Reds measure STRONGER for PAR,

my numbers were actually off a bit.

I just did this test,

4000K-80 CRI----- the conversion is 65
3500K-90CRI------the conversion is 57

I just ran the test, and broke down the conversions. this is right on the money. so i was actually off by 1 for the 3500K.

I have a PAR meter now,

24,000 actual Lux for the 4000 = 369 PAR
24,000 actual Lux for the 3500 = 421 PAR

These are for Luminus cobs, i did a few different Lux values, and they are consistent with my conversions above.
 

Rahz

Well-Known Member
Yea, would be nice if the CRI was listed.

PPFD and LUX are both spot readings so no further correction should be necessary. If converting PPFD to lumens, or LUX to PPF you would need to account for space.

3500K-90CRI------the conversion is 57
Thanks for that.

If 3500K 90CRI is 57, that would indicate 52.5 is in the ballpark for 3000K 90CRI.
 

InTheValley

Well-Known Member
yeah, id agree with that sentiment also. I got my lux calibrated on the money with my findings, its dead on now.. * packing up Par meter to get my $125 bucks back, WIN!! lol
 

SamWE19

Well-Known Member
Yea, would be nice if the CRI was listed.

PPFD and LUX are both spot readings so no further correction should be necessary. If converting PPFD to lumens, or LUX to PPF you would need to account for space.



Thanks for that.

If 3500K 90CRI is 57, that would indicate 52.5 is in the ballpark for 3000K 90CRI.
Well 52.5 would still put me at only 1161 ppfd at 30 cm.

Hopefully this par meter doesn’t take too long to come
 

SamWE19

Well-Known Member
I found this photo on my research...
You probably already know this stuff Rahz but it helps me understand now how lumens possibly could not be simply converted to par.

Lumens is measuring certain wave lengths and misses out several wave lengths that are included in par
 

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InTheValley

Well-Known Member
man,your making it a bigger deal then it is. PAR doesnt measure nothing but intensity of a spectrum. the same as a lux meter. a SPECTROMETER measure the spectrum.

and to be honest, the Luminus is a better cob then the 1212, so its probably actually lower then my values. Im actually helping a couple people and i got u confused with another dude.

at 15watts, your definitely going to disappointed regardless what PAR meter or lux meter you use.

just my opinion, Im not a fan of so little watts spread over a large area.

hope it works out for you dude,
 

Humple

Well-Known Member
Here's a source for the 67/68/69 (there's some rounding there) factors being used for LM561C and LM301B. It seems odd that the factor for Luminus COBs would be so different?
 

SamWE19

Well-Known Member
why you doing verticle grow anyways? Im wondering, space?
With it being a loft the roof is sloped to an apex.

Vertical doubles the footprint available in the loft.

Horizontally id get only about 3m x 2m but the edges would only have about 120cm Height. And I would never be able to reach the pots in the middle. Also 120cm hieght would need to fit a mounting system to hang the lights from which would take up a good 20cm plus the cob heat sink thickness of atleast 10cm then a 25cm tall pot atleast would take the hieght down to about 65cm then 30cm between cob and canopy gives only enough room
For foot tall plants

Vertically I’ve managed to get 3m x 1.5m on eaither side. So In total 6m x 1.5m. Which is about 3 sq meter more. And the head room is a good 100cm from the pots either side and due to growing vertically for every 60cm of cola length it only takes up about 45cm space between pot and cobs.

The par meter - I got a dispatch notification quick. Already dispatched but estimated delivery isn’t until November 20th... really hope that’s a very conservative estimate
 

Rahz

Well-Known Member
I found this photo on my research...
You probably already know this stuff Rahz but it helps me understand now how lumens possibly could not be simply converted to par.

Lumens is measuring certain wave lengths and misses out several wave lengths that are included in par
Plants do see a little beyond 400-700 but that chart seems exaggerated. Look up the Mcree Curve to see what I consider a proper representation of photosynthetic response. Even in that case, important people decided anything under 400 and over 700 wasn't worth worrying about. And when it comes to maximizing the response, blue in the 5-20% area along with the bulk in the 580-680 nm range seems best in theory. Basically, assuming the Mcree Curve is correct that doesn't mean the best spectral distribution scheme will be the same as the Mcree Curve. Stealing away from the lower responses to add to the higher responses should provide better photosynthetic efficiency in theory. As it turns out 3000K 90CRI is pretty close to perfect (although it's the source of much debate). The only thing else to consider is the efficiency of 3000K 90CRI compared to a slightly less desirable spectrum like 3500K 80CRI for instance. Slightly more par from 3500K/80CRI, but slightly less par efficiency. Despite the testing that's been done over the last few years, nobody can objectively say which spectrum is best. That's how little difference it makes apparently. 3000K 70CRI has a notable increase in PAR over 3000K 90CRI, however it's never out yielded high CRI. It's a better veg spectrum and seeing a side by side, you would expect the low CRI plant to win because it looks much fuller and grows a little bigger, but once the flowering period is over the high CRI always wins by a hair. It would take a lot of that to suggest objectively the 90CRI produces more yield, and it might be by about a percent or so.

So, lumens can be converted to par with the right information. Between your LUX meter and your PAR meter you will find an exact conversion factor for your 3000K 85CRI lamp, assuming both meters are calibrated.

I bought a MQ-520 because I was running a company and it was an investment in the integrity of the operation. In your situation, building a light that massive could also warrant a nice PAR meter but still optional IMO. We've squabbled here occasionally over whether the LED manufacturer datasheets are accurate, and for the most part they're pretty close, readings being taken in a specialized chamber with thermal junctions at precise temperatures -vs our ability to successfully get a good estimate with meters in an open space and somewhat unknown temperatures. Now a couple members here have similar equipment to the ones LED manufacturers use. 1212s and the CLU lineup is legit. You're getting 2400 par watts from your light, and you will be able to achieve average of 60g/sqft over the 120 sq/ft of space once you get things dialed in if you know what you're doing. I did it with 850 PPFD. Your average PPFD will be 1000 minus reflective loss. If you try to restrict the light pattern and grow space to 80 sq/ft your average PPFD will be 1500 minus reflective loss. That would be a mistake IMO.

There are times when it's desirable. Dude only has a 2x4 tent to work with, want's 1300-1500 PPFD and maximum yield for his small space. In your case you will get much better results with 1000 PPFD in 120 sq/ft as opposed to 1500 PPFD in 80 sq/ft... CO2 or no CO2.

You might consider that with reflective losses you should have planned on 1600 PPFD to get an actual 1500 PPFD average in your 80 sq/ft, but it's really splitting hairs, and for myself (and probably most) we measure efficiency by watts and estimated par watts. So the numbers I've been throwing at you are no joke. At 1000 PPFD there's no reason why you can't achieve 1.5 GPW, 3.5 GPPW or more in hydro.

The best reflectors for a 6x10 area will be similar to the second diagram I posted. It allows for an extra 4 inches at the lamp plane on each side before beginning the angle. This results in 4 inches of flat after the angle before reaching your expected canopy level. If you want to be exact about it, get the foam/reflective material closer to the outer cob and with a 90 degree angle, the angle will end that much closer to the canopy layer. But I figure 4 inches would be a good margin for error to give the plants some extra room in case they grow a little more than you are expecting. How you build it exactly will be up to you, but you may find it desirable to make modifications after the first couple grows regardless of how well you plan for a system you've never ran before.

Regarding that, your plants will attempt to take up the whole 6 feet of space. You may find that the lower area gets colonized before the top or vice versa, and/or you may find that things are too thick in the middle, so that will probably be the biggest modification you will need to make, possible adjusting where the pots are in the future, how many rows, distance between rows, how big you let the plants get, etc.
 

SamWE19

Well-Known Member
Ahh, so it won't be possible to build a 6 foot wide reflector?
Errm not sure what you mean.

I have around 1m of height between the top of the cobs and the apex of the roof. But from there it slopes down.

I believe I have enough room to build a 45degree reflector from the top of the Heat sinks. However I won’t be able to put the reflector to a horizontal plane as you say it would be 45 degrees in the opposite direction due to the slope of the roof which is already covered in diamond Milar

When I say 1.5m that’s 1.5m of pots.

So I have a plant holder every 30 cm and I have 5 stacked on top of each other which makes it 1.5 but the plants will be growing out of these at a 45 degree angle not completely horizontally.

So the top pot may be 150cm but the plant may end around 200cm
 

SamWE19

Well-Known Member
not sure these are going to grow they way you think man,
I did a test grow already in this system they definitely grow at that angle as even though the light source is in that direction gravity plays a factor too.

Didn’t harvest anything as I stupidly designed my hydro system with copper pipe connecting totes... didn’t realise copper leaches into water below a certain ph and caused massive lockout issues
 
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