LED HPS comparison.

race winslow · Nov 1, 2020

Bosgrower said:
It's always valuable comparing innovative technology to existing standards. I just wish you had selected LED options with better PAR distribution. Both of the fixtures you selected are heavily center weighted and while the do offer quality builds, they leave a lot to be desired as far as lighting a 4x4 canopy is concerned. Timber is a good company, but they're promoting an less than optimal technology with their COBs, and HLG's QB style fixtures, while well made and durable simply don't light the canopy as well as high end Fluence, Gavita, Photontek/Lumatek and other quality bar style fixtures.
1500 μmols in the center square of a 4x4 or 5x5 tent is impressive, ... 300 to 500 μmols in the corners, a lot less so.
In any case, it should be an interested comparison for you.

I intentionally didn't go with light strips and I agree with you on light distribution. The 6 board HLG is a new design for them and the boards are not driven at the day rate as their other models. The light spread should be much better with the Scorpion. The Timber offered a spectrum closer to HPS and that's what I was going for. I agree there are better lights for more even light distribution. There are several manufacturers offering uv, IR and far red. I looked at the lights that you mentioned along with the grow geek pro, the zuess 630, Chilled and some stuff from Amare. I'm a late adopter of technology. So, probably next year at this time I'll give light bars a go. I almost bought the Cypress 8 from Timber. After conversing with their light designer I decided to go this route. I don't think I'd be in bad shape with any of these lights. I appreciate your insights though. Thanks

HydroKid239 · Nov 1, 2020

50k hours from an LED give users 4,166 12/12 days. I’d say that’s worth it. Not to mention it's half the electric cost.
I’ve seen ppl change hps bulbs every other grow.

I would love to see how they compare in final results.
The SF2000 (211w tested) + SF1000 (102ww tested) are currently in my 2x4 tent.
These girls were all planted on Oct 1st. But the pic is about 3 days old.

Excuse the noobish scene.. Don't have a full year of growing down yet. For example: I have since moved the taller plant under the sf1000 to adjust the distance separately.

race winslow · Nov 1, 2020

HydroKid239 said:
50k hours from an LED give users 4,166 12/12 days. I’d say that’s worth it. Not to mention it's half the electric cost.
I’ve seen ppl change hps bulbs every other grow.

I would love to see how they compare in final results.
The SF2000 (211w tested) + SF1000 (102ww tested) are currently in my 2x4 tent.
These girls were all planted on Oct 1st. But the pic is about 3 days old.

Excuse the noobish scene.. Don't have a full year of growing down yet. For example: I have since moved the taller plant under the sf1000 to adjust the distance separately. View attachment 4731426

You're on the right path. Though it's not just about lights. Your plants look healthy. The rest will fall into place.

OneHitDone · Nov 2, 2020

race winslow said:
So, this forum has been going on for about 7 months now and I've made several posts about my affinity for HPS vs LED. I'm still loving HPS. However, I decide to take the plunge on these two lights.

HLG Scorpion® Rspec®

HLG Scorpion Rspec is designed for grows with low ceiling heights or vertical racks. HLG Scorpion Rspec uses 6x Rspec 288 Quantum Boards for an even light spread at just 12" from the canopy. QB 288 uses Samsung's latest LM301H and Deep Red LED 660nm. Commercial Indoor Horticulture LED grow light

horticulturelightinggroup.com

Redwood VS

This 650 watt COB LED grow light features Bridgelux Vero29 COBs and dual Meanwell drivers. Remote driver placement helps with managing heat and custom color temperatures are available. Designed to cover a 4 x 4 coverage area with high PPFD for full cycle/flowering.

timbergrowlights.com

Why, why. why, you might ask......well, let's just say that I'm restless, curious and the in the position to explore alternative grow lights without relying on heresy and paid YouTube product promoters.
The HLG's have an excellent reputation from growers. This design allows for close canopy placement and does not overdrive the diodes into submission. The far red component is equally intriguing.
The Timber VS is the one I'm really excited about. I was able to speak with the companies lighting engineer directly. He mentioned that they would custom configure the light to my liking. So, after some light spectrum conversations with him, I decided to go with 4-3k COBS in the corners and 2-1750k COBS in the middle. The being that the average color temp would work out to about a 2600K color temp on average. While not as low as an HPS, it's fairly low and I'm hoping that it's close or better in performance. I've said that I'm about the eye test and who wants a light that produces excellent yields of marginal weed?
So, with these two lights I have a chance to put things to a test. If they suck I'll admit it here. However, both of these lights are 600 watts or better and won't degrade as fast as HPS bulbs. They have significant light output and efficiency. So, now lets put them to the test.
You'll never hear talk bad about HPS! They're proven we all now that. This is about seeing if there are other truly comparable lights that I feel are the next generation and not a bunch of hype. Hoping for a productive winter growing season these.

Where can we follow along? :peace:

race winslow · Nov 2, 2020

OneHitDone said:
Where can we follow along?

I'll probably follow up on this thread unless someone has a suggestion for a better location. I've not received these yet. I'm going to experiment on 2 plants that I currently have in veg. I'm sure that there'll be some growing pains related to best power levels and canopy proximity. I may have to modify nutes too. I'll post a starting photo hopefully in the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't have clones to do a side by side comparison. For now I'll have to be more concerned with plant response and vitality as well as terpene and trichome production. To me, that's what's important. I'm not trying to eek out every gram possible. I'm going for quality over quantity. Both would be fantastic! I'm hoping to provide some useful, not too biased information about the pros and cons of these lights. It will be subjective to my ability to understand and maximize the potential of the lights and plants. Thanks for checking in and stay tuned.

race winslow · Nov 6, 2020

race winslow said:
I'll probably follow up on this thread unless someone has a suggestion for a better location. I've not received these yet. I'm going to experiment on 2 plants that I currently have in veg. I'm sure that there'll be some growing pains related to best power levels and canopy proximity. I may have to modify nutes too. I'll post a starting photo hopefully in the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't have clones to do a side by side comparison. For now I'll have to be more concerned with plant response and vitality as well as terpene and trichome production. To me, that's what's important. I'm not trying to eek out every gram possible. I'm going for quality over quantity. Both would be fantastic! I'm hoping to provide some useful, not too biased information about the pros and cons of these lights. It will be subjective to my ability to understand and maximize the potential of the lights and plants. Thanks for checking in and stay tuned.

So, I just received the 600 Rspec Scorpion today. The photos don't convey the ruggedness of this light. The red surface which the boards and drivers are mounted to is really heavy duty. The fit and finish of the light is first rate. The light itself weighs around 35lbs and is just really solid. That being said, the light output is impressive too. This is my first go round with QB's and although I've read about how efficient they are it's another thing to experience it first hand. I have the the output set to 50% and I'm blown away by how bright it is. I really like the design too. The light is more evenly distributed and with 6 boards there is less demand on the

board which will hopefully keep the heat more manageable and extend the life of the diodes. While all of that is fine, I want to see how the plants react to the light and how good the finished product is. Here's a couple shot's of the set-up. The light is set to 50% in the pictures.

Yahmoe · Nov 6, 2020

race winslow said:
I'll probably follow up on this thread unless someone has a suggestion for a better location. I've not received these yet. I'm going to experiment on 2 plants that I currently have in veg. I'm sure that there'll be some growing pains related to best power levels and canopy proximity. I may have to modify nutes too. I'll post a starting photo hopefully in the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, I don't have clones to do a side by side comparison. For now I'll have to be more concerned with plant response and vitality as well as terpene and trichome production. To me, that's what's important. I'm not trying to eek out every gram possible. I'm going for quality over quantity. Both would be fantastic! I'm hoping to provide some useful, not too biased information about the pros and cons of these lights. It will be subjective to my ability to understand and maximize the potential of the lights and plants. Thanks for checking in and stay tuned.

There have been scientific studies done with lab reports backing LED having higher THC and Terpenoids and CBDs I’m sure you can find it on this site.

loco41 · Nov 6, 2020

race winslow said:
So, this forum has been going on for about 7 months now and I've made several posts about my affinity for HPS vs LED. I'm still loving HPS. However, I decide to take the plunge on these two lights.

HLG Scorpion® Rspec®

HLG Scorpion Rspec is designed for grows with low ceiling heights or vertical racks. HLG Scorpion Rspec uses 6x Rspec 288 Quantum Boards for an even light spread at just 12" from the canopy. QB 288 uses Samsung's latest LM301H and Deep Red LED 660nm. Commercial Indoor Horticulture LED grow light

horticulturelightinggroup.com

Redwood VS

This 650 watt COB LED grow light features Bridgelux Vero29 COBs and dual Meanwell drivers. Remote driver placement helps with managing heat and custom color temperatures are available. Designed to cover a 4 x 4 coverage area with high PPFD for full cycle/flowering.

timbergrowlights.com

Why, why. why, you might ask......well, let's just say that I'm restless, curious and the in the position to explore alternative grow lights without relying on heresy and paid YouTube product promoters.
The HLG's have an excellent reputation from growers. This design allows for close canopy placement and does not overdrive the diodes into submission. The far red component is equally intriguing.
The Timber VS is the one I'm really excited about. I was able to speak with the companies lighting engineer directly. He mentioned that they would custom configure the light to my liking. So, after some light spectrum conversations with him, I decided to go with 4-3k COBS in the corners and 2-1750k COBS in the middle. The being that the average color temp would work out to about a 2600K color temp on average. While not as low as an HPS, it's fairly low and I'm hoping that it's close or better in performance. I've said that I'm about the eye test and who wants a light that produces excellent yields of marginal weed?
So, with these two lights I have a chance to put things to a test. If they suck I'll admit it here. However, both of these lights are 600 watts or better and won't degrade as fast as HPS bulbs. They have significant light output and efficiency. So, now lets put them to the test.
You'll never hear talk bad about HPS! They're proven we all now that. This is about seeing if there are other truly comparable lights that I feel are the next generation and not a bunch of hype. Hoping for a productive winter growing season these.

Look forward to seeing how both these lights work out for you. I have a 3500k timber 2vs and two 3000k qb v1s that I used in different tents on some kale's not too long ago. Plants looked healthy in both, but the plants in the timber tent seemed to do a little better. Very visibly healthier root systems was the biggest difference. A lot of different factors in what I had going on, so be nice to see some proper plants grown under these. Best of luck moving forward.

HydroKid239 · Nov 7, 2020

OneHitDone · Nov 10, 2020

Yahmoe said:
There have been scientific studies done with lab reports backing LED having higher THC and Terpenoids and CBDs I’m sure you can find it on this site.

Please define "LED"
If "LED" has higher Terpenoid and CBD contents then why are all of the companies engaged in this 1 nm per year spectrum enhancement and even going as far as pairing UV Fluorescent Tubes with LED?

hybridway2 · Nov 10, 2020

OneHitDone said:
Please define "LED"
If "LED" has higher Terpenoid and CBD contents then why are all of the companies engaged in this 1 nm per year spectrum enhancement and even going as far as pairing UV Fluorescent Tubes with LED?

Oh no, this years lucky un-popular led growers got x2 nm's added. 730 + 390nm. Getting close! Just keep upgrading, just keep upgrading!!!!...said Dory to Nemo.
The popular are still are working on biting that 1 oohmole.

Norml56 · Nov 11, 2020

hybridway2 said:
Oh no, this years lucky un-popular led growers got x2 nm's added. 730 + 390nm. Getting close! Just keep upgrading, just keep upgrading!!!!...said Dory to Nemo.
The popular are still are working on biting that 1 oohmole.

Pretty much. They can't even tell you if the real-world benefit of the additional nm is even measurable, but they know marketing, and people will keep upgrading and shelling out thousands of dollars.

Bosgrower · Nov 11, 2020

Norml56 said:
Pretty much. They can't even tell you if the real-world benefit of the additional nm is even measurable, but they know marketing, and people will keep upgrading and shelling out thousands of dollars.

Actually there's substantial science regarding the benefits of UV. The problem for LED mfrs is that UVB diodes run too hot and burn out much faster than the whites and reds. In order to get the real benefit of UV you really need some UVB and almost all the fixtures on the market only have UVA. That's why some folks are adding things like the AgroMax pure UV T5 (75% UV=B / 25% UV-A) bulbs well above the canopy for increased THC production and you only need to run them for short periods during the last few weeks of flower.

hybridway2 · Nov 11, 2020

Bosgrower said:
Actually there's substantial science regarding the benefits of UV. The problem for LED mfrs is that UVB diodes run too hot and burn out much faster than the whites and reds. In order to get the real benefit of UV you really need some UVB and almost all the fixtures on the market only have UVA. That's why some folks are adding things like the AgroMax pure UV T5 (75% UV=B / 25% UV-A) bulbs well above the canopy for increased THC production and you only need to run them for short periods during the last few weeks of flower.

Or, is it possible that all the plant testing is soooooo outdated that UVA does in fact increase thc as recent tests have shown. Even n/uva does.
I think it's time to re-think what we were taught in the past.
For them to even negotiate ir was redic. Its all redic. Full Spectrum from 360-850 is all we need imo. Uva on a timer. Not to much green now.

Bosgrower · Nov 11, 2020

hybridway2 said:
Or, is it possible that all the plant testing is soooooo outdated that UVA does in fact increase thc as recent tests have shown. Even n/uva does.
I think it's time to re-think what we were taught in the past.
For them to even negotiate ir was redic. Its all redic. Full Spectrum from 360-850 is all we need imo. Uva on a timer. Not to much green now.

If memory serves (and at my age it doesn't always) UV-B is necessary to cause the damage that produces the protective reaction in the trichomes while UV-A aids in the recovery. Since decriminalization and legalization has allowed commercial grows, there has been far more research on how to maximize your investment in a cannabis grow and lighting information has been a big winner from that effort.
Here's a link you may find informative ... If you're still awake when you finish it I have others if you're interested

UVR8 Chemical Profile Shaping in Cannabis — AgricUltra™ Advancements

The potency of high quality marijuana increases in direct ratio to the amount of UVB light it receives.

www.agricultra.com

Norml56 · Nov 11, 2020

Bosgrower said:
Actually there's substantial science regarding the benefits of UV. The problem for LED mfrs is that UVB diodes run too hot and burn out much faster than the whites and reds. In order to get the real benefit of UV you really need some UVB and almost all the fixtures on the market only have UVA. That's why some folks are adding things like the AgroMax pure UV T5 (75% UV=B / 25% UV-A) bulbs well above the canopy for increased THC production and you only need to run them for short periods during the last few weeks of flower.

More lights, more maintenance, more timers All of that for maybe an additional .5-1% increase in THC production that the regular user will never know the difference, but it sells because everyone has to have the 'best'

Norml56 · Nov 11, 2020

Bosgrower said:
If memory serves (and at my age it doesn't always) UV-B is necessary to cause the damage that produces the protective reaction in the trichomes while UV-A aids in the recovery. Since decriminalization and legalization has allowed commercial grows, there has been far more research on how to maximize your investment in a cannabis grow and lighting information has been a big winner from that effort.
Here's a link you may find informative ... If you're still awake when you finish it I have others if you're interested

UVR8 Chemical Profile Shaping in Cannabis — AgricUltra™ Advancements

The potency of high quality marijuana increases in direct ratio to the amount of UVB light it receives.

www.agricultra.com

I agree, from a commercial point of view this has value since product value is based on THC % which I think is the most idiotic way to value cannabis but THC is the chem that everyone knows.

hybridway2 · Nov 11, 2020

Bosgrower said:
If memory serves (and at my age it doesn't always) UV-B is necessary to cause the damage that produces the protective reaction in the trichomes while UV-A aids in the recovery. Since decriminalization and legalization has allowed commercial grows, there has been far more research on how to maximize your investment in a cannabis grow and lighting information has been a big winner from that effort.
Here's a link you may find informative ... If you're still awake when you finish it I have others if you're interested

UVR8 Chemical Profile Shaping in Cannabis — AgricUltra™ Advancements

The potency of high quality marijuana increases in direct ratio to the amount of UVB light it receives.

www.agricultra.com

Not saying uvb doesn't. We know that it does. But where's the uva bud testing analysis? Only on forums & between private growers rn.

PJ Diaz · Nov 11, 2020

hybridway2 said:
But where's the uva bud testing analysis?

http://instagr.am/p/B764Ki3h4ts/

Hollatchaboy · Nov 11, 2020

GanjaMclover69 said:
Hi everybody, I wanted to ask if somebody more experienced than me know this kind of staff.
Right now I have a 400w HPS light for 3*3feet grow tent. I was wondering how much LED I need to get same or similar results. I was looking at HollandStar light which is advertised as 1800w and I think it have 310w input. Regardless of that what's your ideas about growing under powerful LED lights or its mostly a legend of super growers.
Sorry for my grammar I am not a native speaker.

I have a timber 4vs. It's 400 watts. 4 x 100 watt vero 29 gen.7 cobs. Great light in my 3 x 3. I'm not sure if I'd go with anything else in that tent at the moment but if I did I would probably go with hlg. Timber grow lights are really good too. I like the intensity of the cobs. I would like the spread of strips to be added to the cobs though

race winslow said:
I haven't seen that. However, my own opinion is that thc production is dependant on a number of variables. My observation is that my bud is frostier and producing more trichromes with the hps. Unless your bud is tested by a certified lab, thc strength is kind of speculative.
I'm about the look, smell and taste.

race winslow said:
Yeah, I agree. The two lights you mentioned sound perfect for your set up. The issue that I've had in small tents is heat build up even using led's.
I just saw a write up above the electric sky. What bothered me about them was that they don't reveal spec's other than wattage and par. Yes, it's a white spectrum, but I'd like to know what they're using for lighting strips and the color spectrum and far red specs.

My timber builds up some heat at 100% ... no doubt about that, but it's much more controllable than when I had hps. I just put an inline fan and filter at the top of tent, and suck the heat right out. Doesn't take much either but I do have to have extraction fan running at all times the light is on.

LED HPS comparison.

LED or HPS

LED

HPS

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