LED or not

Are LEDs worth it?

  • Total voters
    31
Positivity

Positivity

Well-Known Member
Cupid Stunt said:
My question had nothing to do with your DIY skills...you hinted at commercial lights being available in a few months... my inquiry was whether you have information of this or if this was just an opinion...
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I give complete answers. Sometimes expanding on what I think I see becoming of a conversation or where I think it needs to go.

My answers aren't totally dependent on what you want to hear

For a exacting answer. I remember a few already having been produced and sold :P

Smart customers..
 
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C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
The whites provide enough blue, but I wouldn't say that they're predominantly blue, unless you're using 5000k chips.

I'm using 3000k vero 29 which many people say doesn't have enough blue. The main reason for using white leds is the wide band centered around 600nm is very convenient for feeding and calibrating leaves below the top canopy, as amber wavelengths penetrate better than reds, but cause %Pfr to converge lower. (shade avoidance calibration)

In the long run, you might be right, that whites might ultimately be replaced by multiband narrow band emitter arrays once again, but after a decade of people trying to grow weed with leds, it should be obvious that 460nm and 660nm dual band arrays by themselves do a terrible job at flowering weed regardless of the umols/m^2/s used.

Without other "lower quality" wavelengths, there is no shade avoidance calibration, and no food for lower leaves..

AirAnt said:
I really have to say I disagree with any more than 25% white ratio. White mostly provides blues, a task probably better suited to mmm, let's say blue LEDs, I would guess.
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A

az2000

Well-Known Member
AirAnt said:
He said LEDs were the best veg light he's used but for flowering he still prefers HPS (at 47m20s...whoops).
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I didn't watch the video, but if he's talking about a veg-specific LED, I can see his point. But, for a typical blurple-colored LED, I'd prefer to use my T5HO for veg, and the LED would then be better for flower than the T5HO. (I've never used HPS, so I can't say if it's better for flower than LED. All I know is that T5HO doesn't penetrate far enough for a photosensitive in flower. It does well with smaller autoflowers in flower. HPS isn't an option for me due to my climate. I could only use it 5 months out of the year. CMH runs cooler and I'd like to try that. Might get an 9 month window.).

AirAnt said:
I really have to say I disagree with any more than 25% white ratio. White mostly provides blues, a task probably better suited to mmm, let's say blue LEDs, I would guess.
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I don't know. I've seen spectrum graphs of white LEDs which are close to the PAR curve. I think the the blending of colors is more natural (perhaps beneficial to the plant?) than the extremely notched bands of 7 monochrome colors.

I think the deficiency with all white (like a static 7 notches) is that our plants like more blue in veg, more red in flower. An all-white like Onyx which uses seperate veg and bloom "white" seems better. Just a question whether the expense is worth the difference to say, a single A51 XGS?

IMO, I'd like to see LEDs packaged as simple screw-in bulbs, like christmas-tree lights. Not monolithic COB spotlights, but small discrete bulbs. I'd like to swap from warm white to cool white like I do with T5HO. Maybe blend in some notched reds and blues. I don't want a light where it's all soldered in, requiring me to have 2 fixtures (Onyx) or knobs to dim/brighten colors (Advanced XTE). I want to change spectrum the traditional way, like the Solis-Tek HiLED, but not with those large COBs it uses. I want control over all 50 bulbs, not 8 COBS.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
This isn't true. If those dies are driven in series, it won't matter if they have different voltage drops. The drop across each die would depend entirely on the current running through the string. As long both types of dies can run at the same current without issue, having different Vf won't affect anything.

Then, those strings can be put into parallel with total forward voltages being matched.

Example,

35V . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0V
|-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-B-B-B-B-|
|-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-B-B-B-B-|
|-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-B-B-B-B-|
|-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-B-B-B-B-|
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Well, your diagram is merely R & B whereas the multichips are ~ 15 bands, including IR
 
AirAnt

AirAnt

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
I didn't watch the video, but if he's talking about a veg-specific LED, I can see his point. But, for a typical blurple-colored LED, I'd prefer to use my T5HO for veg, and the LED would then be better for flower than the T5HO. (I've never used HPS, so I can't say if it's better for flower than LED. All I know is that T5HO doesn't penetrate far enough for a photosensitive in flower. It does well with smaller autoflowers in flower. HPS isn't an option for me due to my climate. I could only use it 5 months out of the year. CMH runs cooler and I'd like to try that. Might get an 9 month window.).



I don't know. I've seen spectrum graphs of white LEDs which are close to the PAR curve. I think the the blending of colors is more natural (perhaps beneficial to the plant?) than the extremely notched bands of 7 monochrome colors.

I think the deficiency with all white (like a static 7 notches) is that our plants like more blue in veg, more red in flower. An all-white like Onyx which uses seperate veg and bloom "white" seems better. Just a question whether the expense is worth the difference to say, a single A51 XGS?

IMO, I'd like to see LEDs packaged as simple screw-in bulbs, like christmas-tree lights. Not monolithic COB spotlights, but small discrete bulbs. I'd like to swap from warm white to cool white like I do with T5HO. Maybe blend in some notched reds and blues. I don't want a light where it's all soldered in, requiring me to have 2 fixtures (Onyx) or knobs to dim/brighten colors (Advanced XTE). I want to change spectrum the traditional way, like the Solis-Tek HiLED, but not with those large COBs it uses. I want control over all 50 bulbs, not 8 COBS.
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The realization that i'm vegging with LEDs primarily intended for flowering has pushed me into the decision of actually starting to flower my plants. I have two apollos hanging side-by-side in my closet, one is 2/3 red, 1/3 blue and white and is an 11-band monochrome with no white. Plants don't show preference towards either one. There's no lean whatsoever.

I believe if I had a light that was 2/3 blue and white with a bit of orange, they would show preference towards that light and be able to use it more effectively in veg without a doubt. It's hard not to see the white LED trend as a stopgap caused by retail manufacturing (don't forget space magic) and will be phased out once overall LED tech and research improves.

I'd love to see the math, even though I suck at math and hate it, the numbers behind the spectral intensity of monochromes vs whites, how much of which is useable by plants. You know, the overall efficiency of each setup. You'd think the giant manufacturers able to test such a thing have done so and decided to stick with monochromes for a reason. Especially if the white LEDs are cheaper and more efficient as a result of mass production, the grow light manufacturers sticking with monochromes probably says something to their efficacy.
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
AirAnt said:
You'd think the giant manufacturers able to test such a thing have done so and decided to stick with monochromes for a reason. Especially if the white LEDs are cheaper and more efficient as a result of mass production, the grow light manufacturers sticking with monochromes probably says something to their efficacy.
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That's a good point. But, people like stardustsailor have experimented with whites for 2-3 years and landed upon 83% white, 17% red (astirgrows.com).

I'm not sure who which large mfgs you're thinking of. But, I've got a feeling most of them settle on something that works and sells. I don't think they're pushing the envelope. They let DIYers do that, and follow trends that develop. For example, TopLED's flower-specific spectrum was lifted directly from an Area 51 light a couple years ago. (I suspect TopLED won't reveal it's spectrum/ratio because it's probably based upon something else.).

But, my Blackstar 135w (85w actual) UFO is only 2% white and it grows awesome autoflowers. So, I don't know. Maybe our plants aren't as finicky as we think. I like looking at my plants under whiter light. That's worth something.
 
AirAnt

AirAnt

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
That's a good point. But, people like stardustsailor have experimented with whites for 2-3 years and landed upon 83% white, 17% red (astirgrows.com).

I'm not sure who which large mfgs you're thinking of. But, I've got a feeling most of them settle on something that works and sells. I don't think they're pushing the envelope. They let DIYers do that, and follow trends that develop. For example, TopLED's flower-specific spectrum was lifted directly from an Area 51 light a couple years ago. (I suspect TopLED won't reveal it's spectrum/ratio because it's probably based upon something else.).

But, my Blackstar 135w (85w actual) UFO is only 2% white and it grows awesome autoflowers. So, I don't know. Maybe our plants aren't as finicky as we think. I like looking at my plants under whiter light. That's worth something.
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Another oddity is my 11 band gives off a 'pinker' light than the lamp with 2/3rd reds. Even though it's 6 deep reds, 4 red, an infrared, 2 blues, and 2 whites, the color it emits is actually a soft pink color, whiter than the other one. Due to the increased red and blue spectrum in the room, when I leave it actually makes regular sunlight look green and kinda gross. I guess my only real point is LEDs should be flower or veg specific, a lamp trying to do both will be mediocre at both. Since most LEDs are configured to be flower-specific by my observations, I might look into ordering another from Thunder and experimenting with some blue/white combinations. It's certainly interesting to think about and I think would be fun to research if I had the expenses.
 
AirAnt

AirAnt

Well-Known Member
'Near Space Magic'. NASA's at least as much Hollywood as MIT. I guess 45 years ago I'm supposed to believe they went to the moon, walked around for awhile, and ever since no one's ever gone back. No return expeditions, no attempts to colonize or terraform, nothing. In the meanwhile, it seems earth's governments said 'hey, let's go back to blowing the hell out of defenseless countries for their meager resources, forget that space crap'.

I'd bet monochrome LEDs don't look very good behind a camera lens, oh wait I don't need to bet I know that for a fact because people have to use a special filter when making youtube videos. I've heard there's plans in the works to send a ship full of people to Mars. I mean, why would anyone want to return to the moon? People have already been there, how tired and mundane. It's practically commonplace for pete's sake. Nobody gives a crap about the stupid moon anymore, go Mars or go home!

Wake me up when the aliens invade to unite all world religions and governments. Ronald Reagan's wet dream become dire reality inflicted on the miserable.
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
AirAnt said:
a lamp trying to do both will be mediocre at both.
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Mediocre sounds like a stronger criticism than I'd use (based upon my experience with Blackstar "blurple" lights). I'd say "not optimal." Maybe 20% better. The "full spectrum" (flower with satisfactory veg capability) lights may be little more than the reality of the market. The pragmatics of getting people into LED. If they saw the price which comes from an expanded number of bulbs (or worse, duplicate fixtures), fewer growers would be willing to make the move. At the current price per lumen, it may be the best mfgs can do (without letting perfection be the proverbial enemy of good.).


AirAnt said:
I might look into ordering another from Thunder and experimenting with some blue/white combinations. It's certainly interesting to think about and I think would be fun to research if I had the expenses.
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Or, just buy a Blackstar v2 180w (or 240w) "HO" light. I have one and it vegs amazingly. If you want to model it using another light, the spectrum is:

18x Red, deep: 660nm
8x Red: 630nm
34x White 12000k

I don't think you can do that one with Thunder Lighting (Apollo reseller on AliExpress). They have a limit of 5(?) blues and whites out of 15 emitters.
 
AirAnt

AirAnt

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
Or, just buy a Blackstar v2 180w (or 240w) "HO" light. I have one and it vegs amazingly. If you want to model it using another light, the spectrum is:

18x Red, deep: 660nm
8x Red: 630nm
34x White 12000k

I don't think you can do that one with Thunder Lighting (Apollo reseller on AliExpress). They have a limit of 5(?) blues and whites out of 15 emitters.
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Wow, those lights are pricey for 180w. Maybe i'll keep an eye out for auctions on ebay for a veg LED. I might snag a 600w MH eventually (good to have an HID as heat-source during winter), but I kinda want to see what a pure LEDs do first.
I might have to ask Thunder about a veg lamp, because Apollo manufacturers GrowBlu's LEDs, and they've got an all blue/white veg lamp. They have to be able to do it. I'll see, haven't made up my mind.
I've still got those 7 180w ufo's on their way and my other grow got cancelled so idk wtf I'm even going to do with them now.
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
You should remember the people selling their lights on Ebay are doing so because they are unhappy with the performance mostly.
"I've still got those 7 180w ufo's on their way and my other grow got cancelled so idk wtf I'm even going to do with them now." Sell them on Ebay?
 
AirAnt

AirAnt

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
You should remember the people selling their lights on Ebay are doing so because they are unhappy with the performance mostly.
"I've still got those 7 180w ufo's on their way and my other grow got cancelled so idk wtf I'm even going to do with them now." Sell them on Ebay?
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dude check out the volume of LEDs being sold through auction on Ebay. It's staggering at times. It's probably lights that are old models that have been sitting in a warehouse that companies can't sell anymore because they're obsolete. Anyway, I bought one light that was used and was sent a slightly better model than what was pictured, so I'm happy.

I'm going to do some under/side lighting either with ufo's or the cool white floros I have going now. About 4 days out from starting my first flower with LEDs with strains from an actual breeder and everything, it's really awesome. I've grown with HPS of various strengths and I'm happy with my LEDs performance thus far. My plants are growing really densely and compact and healthy. I also know a lot more now so that should help.too.

This will be my first really 'top-notch' grow that I've done for myself. I've always grown bag seed, or rushed it or botched it or had something uncontrollable and horrible happen and this time everything is going to just work. Very exciting. 500w in a little closet in the middle of summer with barely any heat, gonna grow some serious green. Thank you, LED.
 
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Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
I was referring to the used lights you see sold. I guess I could have been more clear on that. The new lights probably haven't even been made, yet. When they arrive, you find they've been shipped directly from China. Let us know how your new endeavor works out.
 
AirAnt

AirAnt

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
I was referring to the used lights you see sold. I guess I could have been more clear on that. The new lights probably haven't even been made, yet. When they arrive, you find they've been shipped directly from China. Let us know how your new endeavor works out.
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okay, I will. I was thinking i'd drag my best papaya and sterling haze out for some mugshots when they get some buds going with my webcam maybe. Lol. I don't partake of the whole 'social media networking' thing but I'm quite proud of my little ladies.

I bought them from a seller from China, so yes I imagine that's where they will have been shipped from. That is who the United States sold nearly it's entire manufacturing industry to. Want to take further shots on me personally about that, or was the previous one sufficient?
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
AirAnt said:
okay, I will. I was thinking i'd drag my best papaya and sterling haze out for some mugshots when they get some buds going with my webcam maybe. Lol. I don't partake of the whole 'social media networking' thing but I'm quite proud of my little ladies.

I bought them from a seller from China, so yes I imagine that's where they will have been shipped from. That is who the United States sold nearly it's entire manufacturing industry to. Want to take further shots on me personally about that, or was the previous one sufficient?
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WTF? I didn't take a shot at you.
 
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Pass it Around

Pass it Around

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
Unless you're talking about a predominantly white LED, I agree with AirAnt. I have a Blackstar veg-specific light which produces much better results in veg than their "blurple" flower spectrum. They call the later "full spectrum" and it will grow a plant from seedling to harvest. But, the veg light produces better results in veg.
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I have multiple different LEDS from chinese to name brand, it isn't the red/blue it is the actual product itself. If it is a shitty product that is what your going to get. No shit you don't want to veg in pure red due to a little stretchy stretchy but you don't need a separate all blue veg panel thats complete bullshit my friend.
 
Scotch089

Scotch089

Well-Known Member
Woah... Those are the posts/kind of theeats that get the NSA to start digging around here for our ipn addresses.

We love you 'merica!! You and all your power..
 
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