Led Users Unite!

are LED's better than CFLs??

meharmon said:

Nice, I assume thats the pentium d, or the amd ~3800+. Pentiums D were basically 2 P4's slapped together, so monstrous heat output for sure. As comparison, a 1.6 ghz celeron from a couple years later is equiv. to a 3.0 ghz P4. If they still counted that way though, we'd be up to like Pentium 8, hehe. If you have a Conroe or later dual core in desktop or laptop life is good, but my computer experience changed forever when I went with an SSD. Laptop with about 1/2 the proc is much "faster" than desktop with a regular 5400-7200 rpm drive. Now there's a great waste of money. LEDs pay for themselves with electricity, SSDs don't pay for themselves but are worth every penny (wishful thinking). /geekrantoff

Longranger and dunit have both answered the question though... the technology is improving so rapidly that next few years will be better and better. I may as well bite on the cheap one with good rep and MacGyver an active cooling solution that doesn't void warranty.

Any thoughts on how many to replace 11x 600W HPS? (9 are 12/12, 2 are 24/0) Power bill is astronomical. I'm thinking maybe 1.25 blackstars per replacement, or 1 per if the 600W UFO uses quality 3w bulbs in the right spectra, or like .75 for the 357.
14 X blackstars*~$240= $3360@ ~$1/watt for 240W(although I think I read they limit power draw so pull <200, which is a tad concerning, and something about their advertised as using 3W CREEs which are only for the white LEDs) <--- 1 year warranty
11 X UFO * ~$250 = $2750@ ~$0.42/watt for 600W(assuming this is accurate draw, this would have a smaller impact on power bill It says it replaces 1000W HPS-- maybe I can get by with fewer)<--- 3 year warranty
9 X 357 * $700 = $6300@ ~$2.00/watt (also says it was designed to replace 1000W, but their dry weight comparisons don't add up to that) <-- 3 year warranty

edit-Just tried to order the UFO and it sent me to a third party processor which didn't work, so I can't order it, but will call them Monday to find out WTF that is about.

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Pentium D baby......you can deep fry a turkey on that sucker! Like I said it's roasted two motherboards but keeps on trucking. My wife just started doing a lot of media editing and I think it's just running too hot for too long now and starting to die. After 5 years it's probably time to buy a new comp anyway. If only I hadn't wasted all my money on LED lights

As for your lighting question. As though no one's really posted results for any of the lights you're looking at I'd be reluctant to dive in and replace my whole system at the same time. If you're running something that big you obviously are looking for results. There's no doubt that LED are awesome for veg so I wouldn't be too worried there but for flowering I think I'd mabe replace 3 of my 600HPS with LED's and see how it goes.

I think that there's just no way in hell that a 600W UFO LED is $250 so be interesting to see what they come back with on that.

Based on how my 357 is performing so far I think you could replace a 600wHPS straight across 1:1.

Blackstar I don't know and haven't seen any numbers. Personally I would be inclined to try 2 to replace a 600WHPS and before anyone jumps down my throat that still puts them as the best value alternative.

If I was buying that many lights I would be sure and talk to ALL the companies I was interested in to see who would give me a solid deal. I'm not talking $5-10 off and free shipping. I mean like 10-15%.

And PLEASE post a journal....would love to see something on that scale if security permits.

purp602 said:

are LED's better than CFLs??

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CFL produce about 64 lumens per watt. LED around 100 for the higher quality ones and HID around 130. So based on that YES LED are better than CFL. Tube floros are actually a little more efficient than CFL's but it's very marginal.

I tend to disagree with that argument on the lights there at the end man. Saying that there are cree's in my light is not unfounded they are i've seen pics of one pulled apart and victor gave me the part numbers to run on the LED's that are in the blackstar they are CREE's no isis is not better its just more expensive why do people always think that you HAVE to spend a lot of money to get a decent LED its bullshit. Talk about unfounded. Show me a grow with one of the expensive LED's that really beats out a blackstar watt for watt dollar for dollar. Ill be happy to take a look at it and will consider buying one but right now honestly nothing is worth spending the money on for standard panels besides a blackstar IMO because everyone else is either charging an arm and a leg for the same shit or charging you the same for some bullshit. Kessil is in a whole different category.

You say that like theres no one in here running blackstars and we are all just shooting our mouths off about em lol. I can tell you sir i am definately not a salesman lol i get nothing but personal satisfaction of seeing someone pull off a nice grow without conforming to the norm and spending an assload of money to run LED's and then being disapointed in the performance to $$ ratio. Salesman my ass the reason every other person is buying them is because they work you cant go around saying everyone is trying to sell something just because it happens to be working for them shit i wish i was gettin payed for sayin blackstars kick ass because i'd be gettin a gang of coin. But ill gladly say it for free because its the truth.

dunit said:

No argument with that. Best I ever pulled was 7 lb and a couple grams off 4000watts (4x600HPS and one 400MH). That's like .8g per watt and other than adding co2 I don't think I could have done better and I was happy as hell with those numbers. It took a lot of years and a lot of runs to get to that. I went back to flood and drain tables after that and never got past .65 g/watt but was a way lower maintenance system and was happy as hell with that too.

I have no illusions that the lights I bought are the best and baddest but I think they are gonna be a solid performer, especially for the money, and hopefully time proves me right. I get messages asking me why I bought them and wasted my money when I could have bought Blackstar, that Blackstar is a better light, that Blackstar will blow my 357's away, Blackstar contains CREE's and all kinds of claims that no one can back up and it's gets tiring. I'm pretty sure that Blackstar's marketing strategy consists of using social networks like this to push their products and it's obviously working becaue every second person seems to be buying them. I should probably not take it personal when I get those messages and comments and realize that it's just advertizing shills and ignore that crap.

When ur the guy actually doing it (running a grow journal) it gets old hearing how you should have done it.

If I had a buddy say he had $250 bucks to spend I'd probably tell him to buy a Blackstar. I would also suggest he save a couple more bucks and buy an ISIS or maybe Spectra if possible. Its my opinion that those are better lights and will produce better results and whether you're commercial or hobby.....who doesn't want more bud

Peace brother and happy smoking.

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Well now i at least know thanks kaptain that my blackstar has cree's in it !

Ok, just ordered one 240W blackstar after a long conversation with "Shawn" from gotham products(ebay)/ lighthouse hydro (storefront). Their ebay price says OBO, so mentioning that I was thinking $240 /w free shipping, but he says $250 /w free shipping and I didn't push since we'd already been over how much more expensive other brands are. He said he'd been getting a lot of the questions I asked him, so I imagine it was someone reading this thread, too, hehe. I asked which angles/manufacturers/wavelength of the LEDs, and since I was driving I couldn't write it all down, but he said the 425 and 630nm were CREE, I think the white 12k is CREE, the 660nm is Bridgelux, and the last one I forget. He also gave me the breakdown of how much of each but again I couldn't write it down, so I won't quote that. He mentioned having a diagram showing all this for their 500W system. All are 3W diodes, no marketing tricks. I like that KK says he got parts numbers from Victor, way to press for info. For the angles he gave the breakdown of some 120, some 90, some 60, and I don't know which are which, but the diagram of the 500W should answer that if its available ( I haven't looked for it yet) as it supposedly just a doubling of the 240.
It should take a week or so to get here, so I'll give a breakdown on the thermal performance to answer that query. Oh, responding abut the sheet of aluminum used as heatsink he said its thicker than usual, so we'll see how thick. Using some generic calculations I'll try to figure out the TDP on that thing when I get it. If I get good results with this one, I'll look at replacing the rest, or leave ~3 HPS for flower if the LEDs don't work as well alone as hoped.
Oh and R-E-S-P-E-C-T each other, we're all on the same side, even if some prefer shamrock to clover D

The 500W actually has a completely different layout than the 240. its a collection of circle patterns. It is actually 504W 168 diodes x 3w. Still an awesome light. Nice info from them, I hope that respect part works out. I have weight to show from an HID/LED grow, but not from a solitary blackstar grow. Around march or april I plan on having an all LED grow with blackstars just for fun. Ill get a 240 and toss two plants under it to see what happens. (even then its all about technique) Honestly LED's and HID are two different monsters altogether, both have convincing and compelling strong points, hence why I have 740W LED and 1000W HPS taking care of 11 plants right now.

At least I like seeing arguments that, if nothing else, prove that LEDs work regardless of the model more or less. There are plenty of people with dead plants and low yields with HID too.

Its funny seeing the strata within the LED field. Its like us vs. them, meets us vs. us...At least the internal arguments are far more nerdy and tech oriented than the old "I heard LEDs suck" argument.

meharmon said:

Ok, just ordered one 240W blackstar after a long conversation with "Shawn" from gotham products(ebay)/ lighthouse hydro (storefront). Their ebay price says OBO, so mentioning that I was thinking $240 /w free shipping, but he says $250 /w free shipping and I didn't push since we'd already been over how much more expensive other brands are. He said he'd been getting a lot of the questions I asked him, so I imagine it was someone reading this thread, too, hehe. I asked which angles/manufacturers/wavelength of the LEDs, and since I was driving I couldn't write it all down, but he said the 425 and 630nm were CREE, I think the white 12k is CREE, the 660nm is Bridgelux, and the last one I forget. He also gave me the breakdown of how much of each but again I couldn't write it down, so I won't quote that. He mentioned having a diagram showing all this for their 500W system. All are 3W diodes, no marketing tricks. I like that KK says he got parts numbers from Victor, way to press for info. For the angles he gave the breakdown of some 120, some 90, some 60, and I don't know which are which, but the diagram of the 500W should answer that if its available ( I haven't looked for it yet) as it supposedly just a doubling of the 240.
It should take a week or so to get here, so I'll give a breakdown on the thermal performance to answer that query. Oh, responding abut the sheet of aluminum used as heatsink he said its thicker than usual, so we'll see how thick. Using some generic calculations I'll try to figure out the TDP on that thing when I get it. If I get good results with this one, I'll look at replacing the rest, or leave ~3 HPS for flower if the LEDs don't work as well alone as hoped.
Oh and R-E-S-P-E-C-T each other, we're all on the same side, even if some prefer shamrock to clover D

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concur with respect part, yea the 500 panels are configured differently than the 240's i would imagine the heat sink is going to be at least 3/16" thick if not a quarter inch thick. The panel is pretty heavy and most of the weight comes from the case and the heat sink. Just remember its NICE to have fins because they do improve efficiency a little bit but heres the question IS the price of either machining it (the right way IMO no air pockets like with casting to hold heat) or casting it with fins worth the increase in thermal efficiency. I can answer that right now NO absolutely not with a 240w panel. I wont comment on the 500w panels as i dont run one. But for the 240w panel its more than enough i could let the leaves of the plant touch all over my panel and never worry about "burning" the leaves but i will bleach or crisp em if i let em get to close to the light because of intensity.

I got nothin against the other panel manufacturers except their outrageous price for the same thing that gotham and lighthouse is selling, thats all. Pretty much all the big ones we go back and forth on are created equal except for the fact that one company charges a decent price and the others want to rape us.

On a different note video update on my desk grow in my sig. Check it out

With all this chatter about Blackstars and buying inexpensive LED's, I'm suprised no one has mentioned Hydroponics Hut yet.
Even though I've already made my own personal investment in LED's (ProSource), I still read and follow any info I can get on the subject.
From everything I've seen and read, Hydroponics Hut is producing the best performing, most reliable, low cost LED lights on the market right now.
I can say this having my own purchasing experience with Gotham Hydro, whom I really don't recommenced trusting, no matter how nice they are on the phone.
I have seen no evidence of the HH models breaking down quickly or losing rows of lights either, something that can't be said for the Blackstars.
For about $40 more then the price of a 240W Blackstar you could purchase one of HH 180W lights, with the HH model covering close to the same growing area and includes a 3 yr. warranty.
Yes, 180 is less then 240, but it's 180 of "proven & reliable" against 240 of "it's good till it breaks".
I want to see my fellow gardeners get the best value for their hard earned dollar.

I 2nd hydro hut... thats where i got all my LED's from

Bad Karma said:

With all this chatter about Blackstars and buying inexpensive LED's, I'm suprised no one has mentioned Hydroponics Hut yet...

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Hydroponicshut.com has been discussed here.

Their 180w light doesn't have the range of light that the Blackstar 240w does, but it does have the option to dial-in the color.

edit: It appears the 2011 model does have similar color range, but beam angles differ. The Blackstar has 60, 90, 120, The ProGrow has 90.

Did you own a blackstar or did you just talk to them on the phone and decide against it? I havent really seen anything good on prosource but ill go take a look. Just curious as to if you had personal experience actually using a blackstar for an extended period of time.

Bad Karma said:

With all this chatter about Blackstars and buying inexpensive LED's, I'm suprised no one has mentioned Hydroponics Hut yet.
Even though I've already made my own personal investment in LED's (ProSource), I still read and follow any info I can get on the subject.
From everything I've seen and read, Hydroponics Hut is producing the best performing, most reliable, low cost LED lights on the market right now.
I can say this having my own purchasing experience with Gotham Hydro, whom I really don't recommenced trusting, no matter how nice they are on the phone.
I have seen no evidence of the HH models breaking down quickly or losing rows of lights either, something that can't be said for the Blackstars.
For about $40 more then the price of a 240W Blackstar you could purchase one of HH 180W lights, with the HH model covering close to the same growing area and includes a 3 yr. warranty.
Yes, 180 is less then 240, but it's 180 of "proven & reliable" against 240 of "it's good till it breaks".
I want to see my fellow gardeners get the best value for their hard earned dollar.

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Viagro said:

Hydroponicshut.com has been discussed here.

Their 180w light doesn't have the range of light that the Blackstar 240w does, but it does have the option to dial-in the color.

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Okay, I've tried to read through the majority of this thread, but at 150 plus pages you can't catch everything.
Weird though, as I've read on other forums that Victor of Gotham Hydro telling customers over the phone that Hydroponics Hut stole his design for their Pro-Grow series.
Like I said though, don't trust Gotham Hydro, Shawn and Victor are running a shell game for the underfunded and uninformed.
Much like Green House Seeds does on the genetics end of our consumer spectrum, working the noobs for their money before they know any better.
In other words, neither company delivers on what they advertise as the best that's available.

Kaptain Kron said:

Show me a grow with one of the expensive LED's that really beats out a blackstar watt for watt dollar for dollar. Ill be happy to take a look at it and will consider buying one but right now honestly nothing is worth spending the money on for standard panels besides a blackstar IMO because everyone else is either charging an arm and a leg for the same shit or charging you the same for some bullshit.

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Here is the link to a grow run in a confined space in dirt by a guy who started out with beat up clones. He got 756 grams off 850W of ISIS panels. .9grams per watt

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/378470-confined-space-850w-led-master.html

Blackstar isn't new.....so where are all the grows showing them pulling anything close to those numbers?

Kaptain Kron said:

right now honestly nothing is worth spending the money on for standard panels besides a blackstar.
i wish i was gettin payed for sayin blackstars kick ass because i'd be gettin a gang of coin.

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So you're not a shill and you're not a salesman but you tell everyone that asks about LED's to buy one and you keep saying that NOTHING is as good as a blackstar even though there is no proof!

If it walks like a duck.....

Kaptain Kron said:

Did you own a blackstar or did you just talk to them on the phone and decide against it? I havent really seen anything good on prosource but ill go take a look. Just curious as to if you had personal experience actually using a blackstar for an extended period of time.

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I purchased, or should I say tried to purchase, 2 90W LED lights from Gotham Hydro early last year.
Of course their listing on Ebay said the items were in stock when I ordered, but then I heard nothing in response from GH after my order.
So after a few days of not receiving even a confirmation of any sort, I emailed them.
"We're sorry, that model is out of stock but we be receiving a shipment later this week. Your lights will be sent out then".
I though thats fine, it happens, and waited till the end of the week.
I waited about 9 days before emailing them again, to which their reply was that they had sold out again.
I replied asking how that could happen with my order being placed long before this "new" shipment came in and supposedly went out.
No response was given, so after another 2 day (I'm at a little over 2 weeks since placing my order at this point) I call them.
I get Victor who said he was extremely sorry about the mix up, but assured my that when they got their new shipment that coming Wednesday, mine would be the first to ship.
He also said that he'd understand if I'd wanted to cancel my order at that point, but I declined, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
He said if I change my mind before Wednesday, to contact him and he'd still cancel the order.
After an hour more of thinking about it, I did end up changing my mind, so I emailed them.
This time I get Shawn replying saying that order just shipped out today and they wouldn't be able to call it back.
Now this conversation with Victor over the phone and the email to GH all happened with about 60 minutes of each other on a Saturday evening, long after any new shipment would have been received for the day.
With the email reply coming back from Shawn within 30 minutes of me sending it, so something was horribly rotten in Denmark.
I couldn't get a hold of them via email or over the phone for close to 3 days after that.
So I sent them an email stating that they were breaking countless Ebay policies during my purchase and transaction and that I would be reporting them for it.
Bam, all my money was refunded the next day.
Sorry Blackstar owners, but that is some shady activity right there.

As for ProSource, Google "Growing with the 180W Jumbo UFO", the 2nd link which is actually entitled "Growing with the 180W Jumbo UFO" is the one you want.
Jump into the thread at page 13, post #190 and you can see a large scale grow from a Colorado caregiver using the ProSource LED's.
If you continue reading after page 13 you'll see more of the Colorado grow and more reasons as to why I made my purchase.

Also, here is some of my own results from the ProSource LED's, a 3.5' Sour Grapes plant 6 weeks into flower:

project fuoro said:

Hey everybody who is using LEDs out there. Lets join up and start chattin about this and that. Figuring crap out. Seeing what works for you, but not me, etc. etc.

It would be much appreciated if only people who USE CURRENTLY leds for mostly full grows, or vegetative grows using only LEDs.

HID users, we already know you are better than us, and your buds are bigger than ours. But there is a first time for everything, and a new beginning at ever end of something old.

ALSO IF YOU ARE AN LED SALESMAN TRYING TO SELL YOUR PRODUCT THIS IS NOT THE THREAD FOR YOU! STAY AWAY! IF YOU ARE AFFILIATED WITH A COMPANY AND HAVE BIAS FEEDBACK WITHOUT RESULTS. STAY AWAY!

Thank you all, and I hope this thread EXPLODES in growth...

LED USERS UNITE!

Current Status: Not Growing Yet
Current equipment: Prosource Jumbo 180W UFO.

-pf-

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So this is the first post of this whole thread quoted above.

Note the part that mentions "BIAS FEEDBACK WITHOUT ANY RESULTS. STAY AWAY!"

dunit said:

So this is the first post of this whole thread quoted above.

Note the part that mentions "BIAS FEEDBACK WITHOUT ANY RESULTS. STAY AWAY!"

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Um, is that directed towards me?
I was asked about my experience with Gotham Hydro and gave a recounting of it.
I was asked about ProSource, so I provided outside sources along with my own results.
If I'm being accused of bias, I'm confused as to why.

Bad Karma said:

Um, is that directed towards me?
I was asked about my experience with Gotham Hydro and gave a recounting of it.
I was asked about ProSource, so I provided outside sources along with my own results.
If I'm being accused of bias, I'm confused as to why.

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lol.....no not at all! I have been battling with the Blackstar gang.
I keep asking if we can keep the shilling of Blackstar down until someone posts results or at least not say that they are better than other proven lights.
That was directed at Kap Kron after he said that NOTHING is as good as Blackstar.

I found it interesting that you were asked to prove your anti-blackstar claims......it's a tough go on this forum if you're not running Blackstar. BTW Nice grow. How long is that strain supposed to run? How much power is that ProSource?

Bad Karma said:

Um, is that directed towards me?
I was asked about my experience with Gotham Hydro and gave a recounting of it.
I was asked about ProSource, so I provided outside sources along with my own results.
If I'm being accused of bias, I'm confused as to why.

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No its directed towards everyone......dunit seems to believe that we havent been exchanging valuable information for the first 150 pages of this thread.......and for some reason we have to prove something to him personally or it isnt true at all........maybe dunit should start another led thread or better yet he should go hang out 357 magnum forums i think he's actually the salesman