LED vs CFL. True watt to true watt.

WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
Not looking for info about HPS

I am considering a couple of 300w LED (190 true watt) panels for my next grow. Right now I am growing under 18 x 23w CFLs in my 2x4x5 tent.

CFLs: 18x23w = 414 true watts.
LEDs: 2x190w = 380 true watts.

Considering plant health and production, would I be taking a step back, staying about the same, or will I get better growth with LEDs?

If it's all about the lumens, my current CFL setup is higher than the LED panels I am looking at.
 
smokey the cat

smokey the cat

Well-Known Member
That's seems like a big area for CFLs, even though you have 18 of them. Do you think you're getting enough light into your plants as it stands?

Ignoring the amount of lumens for a moment - with CFL you will get a lot more heat, and also cfl bulbs lose a lot of output over their lifespan. Most annoyingly CFL are a light source that is more difficult to direct onto plants. The most efficient placement for a bulb is bare and vertically - reflectors cut your bulb's output even if they do get the light going in the right direction.


For me it was no contest - I upgraded 138W of CFL to 140W of pll fluorescent, to 100W of led. The led runs cooler, and has the most penetration.

I can see why people love CFLs - plenty of people use them as supplementary lighting even under HID as they can really get the grow to dank-up. You're probably the only person who can adequately assess how well they're working for you though - how much bud are you getting down the stem? How much direct excposure to the canopy are you getting out of your light placement? Is the generated heat a good thing or a bad thing in your environment?


A couple of thoughts on LED - not all LED panels are created equal. The panels with branded emitters are pretty expensive for what you get. The cheap generic panels seem like a mixed bunch in terms of quality and output. Be warned there are plenty of failed units out there on the growing forums.

100W of newer generation higher end LED will put out more light than 100W of cheaper/older innefficient and hot LEDs.

The most efficient LED arrays at the moment are DIY. And they're bloody cheap. Manufacturers have some way to catch up.


I think you might be interested in this thread here, looking to outfit a 3'x4' growroom https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/792363-seeking-help-building-custom-designed.html
He's building a light array better than any pre-built panel available. On the cheap.


Edit - oh and it feels great to get the mercury out of the grow room. In hindsight it's a real big plus to the way I feel about my cabinet.
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
Wow smokey, thank you very much for the well thought out reply. I was just coming to bump this thread because no one seemed to want to touch it for a while.

My CFLs are currently in 3 groups of 6 under individually reflectors hanging over 3 plants. I think they are doing well, but was wondering if I could get a bump for about the same wattage.

A DIY option would be the best, especially if I can save some $ versus the commercial offerings. I am a big DIYer and do a lot of electronics soldering. I will for sure check out the thread you linked.

Again, thank you very much.
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
Oh, and if you know the movie my avatar is from... "You're over the line Smokey!" :-o
 
smokey the cat

smokey the cat

Well-Known Member
Wrote so much because I presumed you were just itching to use ur gun.




If you go new Cree CXA/Bridgelux Vero cob you should definitely be impressed. 400W of those LEDs will definitely give you way better penetration than CFL+reflector - just pouring all the light directly from the surface of your emitter towards your grow will be an improvement.
None of the manufacturers have use them yet, the LED themselves are really only a few months old. Though there are now some generic Chinese cob panels showing up on ebay now.

It's super easy assembly: you only need to attach a few LEDs (e.g. my specifc LED are ~52W each) and they're really big and simple to handle. Anyone who already owns a soldering iron and multimeter probably has the skills.
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
Crazy. I read through Supra's DIY build using those big LEDs, but he ordered like 16 at a time. I was thinking that was going way over my budget for my small space and intentions. Just started reading Gaius' thread. If I could build two of the panels he is talking about for < $400 total, I would be a happy camper.

ETA: And I already have a Digikey account. :-P
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
After reading Gaius' thread, I see that it might be just a little over ~$400 for two x 3 COB panels. I don't mind that if they will kick ass over the generic panels I was looking at.
 
smokey the cat

smokey the cat

Well-Known Member
Bridgelux work out cheaper I think - the Vero 18 I use were $17 each (I run them at 50W).

This stuff is criminally cheap - especially if you go for a cheap satisled driver...
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
smokey the cat said:
Bridgelux work out cheaper I think - the Vero 18 I use were $17 each (I run them at 50W).

This stuff is criminally cheap - especially if you go for a cheap satisled driver...
Click to expand...
Do you have any part #s for the Bridgelux and Satisled drivers?

Thanks again smokey.
 
SupraSPL

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
WDIK said:
Right now I am growing under 18 x 23w CFLs in my 2x4x5 tent.
Click to expand...
Is the tent height 5'? I am amazed you fit 400W of fluoros in a 2'X4' impressive :) I agree with smokey, DIY will treat you best. For reference I use about 25W LED per sq ft of canopy. The chart can be used to choose your value point (how hard you want to run them) and compares the Vero vs Cree. Good luck!

Vero 18 29 VS CXA3070.png
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
OK, looking at the Bridgelux BXRC-30E4000-F-03 (3000k) and BXRC-50C4000-F-04 (5000k). Good choices? Thinking of a 2:1 3000k:5000k ratio.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

ETA: It looks like the BXRC-30E4000-F-03 are hard to find. Would you substitute or wait for them to come back in stock?
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
3500k OK for a grow, or not enough red? I don't want to seem impatient, but I need a project dammit. :)
 
J

jakemer

Member
for flowering shoot for a 10:1 or 5:1 at the most when pushing a 2-6 band ratio(red/veg)
if your looking for doing a "grow" light shoot for roughly 60/40 red to veg. you dont want too much of either in the two applications the light blends and the plant reacts. if you over saturate one or under implement another there will more than likely be adverse affects in the selected stage(everything in moderation(not so much for flower as you dont want to encourage stretching(maybe one day we'll have a perfect light to match our favorite strain))).

the technology has really taken off in the last year and knockoffs are not an enviable option considering most of us who pick up the soldering iron are rarely satisfied with the first attempt or lack the motivation to make obvious improvements. shop around get a deal, my 3w supply for 7 of my bands has yet to fail me or look inferior to the cree leds next to them(wayjun being $.60-$.70 per 3watter and cree/epistar/phillups(nother15-20wavelengths tween em) being $3-$25 per.

as per most who start looking at leds as an option, read up on photosynthesis and PAR and make a real purchase, but since thats going to take a while just spam led searches on google till you find some 630s 460s and 2700ks for a desent price. then later in the grow its easy to up the spectrum and add a few diodes ect.

wajun is a highly recomended supplier of mine. not as clean as cree but i only get 1/150 or so i dont use, and have had less than a 23w cfl in 3w led losses so far(at 71 cents a piece theyre also a lot cheaper).

watt for watt if you grow under high power leds from a supplier of only 3w 5000k leds i think youll yeild better than trying to mix a spectrum of cfls under a higher wattage(at the very least, you wont know about the great smoke leds bring)

edit: i take it back, all of the defective leds i got from wayjun got used. the only thing with these new diodes is they usually have to be removed from the heat sink if theyr damaged or whatever, wayjun is my only supplier that has them with or without the heatsinks and give you the option to order them seperate and solder them yourself
 
gk skunky

gk skunky

Well-Known Member
jakemer said:
for flowering shoot for a 10:1 or 5:1 at the most when pushing a 2-6 band ratio(red/veg)
if your looking for doing a "grow" light shoot for roughly 60/40 red to veg. you dont want too much of either in the two applications the light blends and the plant reacts. if you over saturate one or under implement another there will more than likely be adverse affects in the selected stage(everything in moderation(not so much for flower as you dont want to encourage stretching(maybe one day we'll have a perfect light to match our favorite strain))).

the technology has really taken off in the last year and knockoffs are not an enviable option considering most of us who pick up the soldering iron are rarely satisfied with the first attempt or lack the motivation to make obvious improvements. shop around get a deal, my 3w supply for 7 of my bands has yet to fail me or look inferior to the cree leds next to them(wayjun being $.60-$.70 per 3watter and cree/epistar/phillups(nother15-20wavelengths tween em) being $3-$25 per.

as per most who start looking at leds as an option, read up on photosynthesis and PAR and make a real purchase, but since thats going to take a while just spam led searches on google till you find some 630s 460s and 2700ks for a desent price. then later in the grow its easy to up the spectrum and add a few diodes ect.

wajun is a highly recomended supplier of mine. not as clean as cree but i only get 1/150 or so i dont use, and have had less than a 23w cfl in 3w led losses so far(at 71 cents a piece theyre also a lot cheaper).

watt for watt if you grow under high power leds from a supplier of only 3w 5000k leds i think youll yeild better than trying to mix a spectrum of cfls under a higher wattage(at the very least, you wont know about the great smoke leds bring)

edit: i take it back, all of the defective leds i got from wayjun got used. the only thing with these new diodes is they usually have to be removed from the heat sink if theyr damaged or whatever, wayjun is my only supplier that has them with or without the heatsinks and give you the option to order them seperate and solder them yourself
Click to expand...
Seriously??? LMFAO you barely make any sense.
 
smokey the cat

smokey the cat

Well-Known Member
Hey buddy,

About as specific as I can be below. This was just my build when I put it together over the last few months. If you're strapped for cash then Vero will be cheaper - most expensive part definitely the drivers.

Cree CXA are more efficient, but price more. Not sure how the driver requirements differ. Supra's breakdown is awesome useful for the efficiency of these.

I use Vero 18 with the MeanWell LPF-60d-36 - a good quality dimmable driver $30-something each. There are a bunch of reputed online US retailers carrying these in the US - which seem to have the best prices for legitimate stock.
Each driver dimmed by 100kohm pot attached to the dim line - site where ever is convenient. Also possible to dim multiple drivers with a single resistor.
Otherwise those satisled drivers mentioned in that other thread are damn tempting.

One driver - per emitter. I figured the V18 was the sweet spot for me - it seemed grunty enough at the 50W, but total build cost didn't get crazy cause I only needed two LEDs.

I think the Vero 18 single colour of choice for flowering is 3500k or maybe 4000k. But you could definitely go colder or warmer depending on how you use your light and what you think you want. The only difference between the specific Vero 18 models is the CRI - prefer cheap low-CRI models. They don't render colour as accurately to the human eye, but put out more light.

With Vero it's worth buying the molex connector - only a dollar or two but lets you plug em in really easily.

Add a heatsink to suit - any old CPU cooler will work, or ebay's "led heatsink" listings.


Best place to start is probably the Bridgelux data sheet. Once you know the voltage and current for each model it's easier to find the right driver. Satisled look damn cheap seem to test ok according to the other thread.

The Vero & CXA analysis thread on here is awesome reading - definitely the best source on the net for using this stuff for growing.
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
smokey the cat said:
Fuck that was a wall of text, lol. You must know pretty much all that shit already - there's like a dozen good threads on this board over the last six months talking about this thing.

Anyway - my pick of the litter for a good read is this one here which has some pretty useful takes on the numbers https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/743645-cree-cxa-analysis.html
Click to expand...
Not at all. The more info I can absorb the better. I think I am heading the right direction. I had looked at the Vero datasheet and noticed the same thing you did, that the lower CRI put out more light. I was just hoping I was interpreting the data correctly. :)

Cost isn't a huge issue, but just because I could spend more doesn't mean that I will. I will only ever be growing for myself.

I will check out the thread you linked before I buy anything.

Thanks again.
 
WDIK

WDIK

Active Member
Well, I bit the bullet and ordered 6 Bridgelux Vero 18 COBs. I also have the Satisled drivers that Supra linked in another thread on their way.

It will take a while for the drivers to get here, but at least I have a project to look forward to. :)
 
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