Lets get dirty

greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
on the egg shell I understand what your saying about the release rate varying

in my amndments

I chose the ph adjusting lime use in the build a new soil recipe to offset the peat

but I chose gypsum (and crab meal) intentionally in the re-amendment because it, gypsum, doesn't affect the soil ph

currently my soil is about ph 7.0 when tested
and im watering with ph 7.3 well water
so I don't know that I need to use ph adjusting lime in the re-amendment on an indoor grow that's not being soaked with low ph acid rain

also this fox farm soil is clearly low on calcium from the bag

I also noticed...the build a soil site also eliminates the lime and uses gypsum in its place for the re-amendment mix

does that seem to hold water????
Click to expand...
My only concern with the re-amendment mix is that it's impossible to tell what a soil is going to be needing after a grow.
What was in the soil to begin with?
how big were the containers?
how big were the plants?
were they "bottle-fed"?
Too many variables to decipher what a soil is going to need
Don't get me wrong, that re-amendment mix is DAMN good stuff, but how does somebody know if their mix is going to need that after the first grow?
I've done consecutive water only grows before and oftentimes the second run is this best.


so you are wanting the gypsum for it's sulfur content?
i'm just curious, because you have a LOT of calcium going into that mix, and although it's super hard to overdo that, it would be shitty for it to happen (can't say I've seen it, but you do have a good amount of calcium inputs here)

I wasn't advocating using d-lime on the soil anyhow, in fact i don't use d-lime personally, but usually in a good mix that's already been "adjusted" by the pre-existing (now harvested) plant, remember as the plant grows it adjust the soil to it's liking, via root exudates and microbial interaction, not to mention in a heavy humus based soil the soil itself buffers the ph anyways.
d-lime is good stuff, but like anything it's only to be used if it's warranted.
but it does have a good amount of magnesium, and you can cause issues with too much of that.
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
My only concern with the re-amendment mix is that it's impossible to tell what a soil is going to be needing after a grow.
What was in the soil to begin with?
how big were the containers?
how big were the plants?
were they "bottle-fed"?
Too many variables to decipher what a soil is going to need
Don't get me wrong, that re-amendment mix is DAMN good stuff, but how does somebody know if their mix is going to need that after the first grow?
I've done consecutive water only grows before and oftentimes the second run is this best.


so you are wanting the gypsum for it's sulfur content?
i'm just curious, because you have a LOT of calcium going into that mix, and although it's super hard to overdo that, it would be shitty for it to happen (can't say I've seen it, but you do have a good amount of calcium inputs here)

I wasn't advocating using d-lime on the soil anyhow, in fact i don't use d-lime personally, but usually in a good mix that's already been "adjusted" by the pre-existing (now harvested) plant, remember as the plant grows it adjust the soil to it's liking, via root exudates and microbial interaction, not to mention in a heavy humus based soil the soil itself buffers the ph anyways.
d-lime is good stuff, but like anything it's only to be used if it's warranted.
but it does have a good amount of magnesium, and you can cause issues with too much of that.
Click to expand...

ive spent some time in the "plant problems" section of this forum and had taken a mental note that almost every user of FFOF was showing calcium def within 3 weeks
to add to the issue if theyre using the fox farm liquid organic nutes theres zero calcium in that product so everyones using calmag (aka calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate) to get there calcium

mind set coming from the synthetic fertilizer world....gotta stop that !
i noticed theres plenty of organic quick response N options.. like liquid fish whatever
so my theory was if i could get plenty of calcium in there id avoid the calcium nitrate and could always add fish for N if im short

but now your making me think maybe im going to far

as of current

im re-amending 2oz gypsum per cubic foot

or 2 tsp every 2 to 4 weeks in my amend as you go feeds
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
preparing new soil
1 cubic ft
2.5 gallons peat
2.5 gallons humus (compost/EWC)
2.5 gallons aeration (perlite)
1 cup combined lime (oyster shell/dolomite) equal portion combined
4 cups mineral (basalt &/or granite rock dust)

2 cups kelp meal 1-0-2

amendment mix 2 cups total
1 part alfalfa 3-1-2
1 part crab meal 2-3-0
1/2 part neem cake
1/2 part fish meal 9-0-0

cook for 4+ weeks


full re amending soil
1 cubic ft soil
2.5 gallons humus (compost/EWC)
1.5 gallons aeration
2 oz gypsom
1 cup mineral(basalt &/or granite rock dust)

amendment mix 1 cup total
1 part alfalfa
1 part crab meal
2 part kelp meal
1/2 part fish meal
1/2 part neem cake

cook for 4+ weeks

amend as you go/partial re-amendment
(to achieve 2 consecutive grows without cooking)
top dress every 2 to 4 weeks
2 cups earth worm castings
2 tsp gypsum
1 oz amendment mix (same as above)
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
preparing new soil
1 cubic ft
2.5 gallons peat
2.5 gallons humus (compost/EWC)
2.5 gallons aeration (perlite)
1 cup combined lime (oyster shell/dolomite) equal portion combined
4 cups mineral (basalt &/or granite rock dust)

2 cups kelp meal 1-0-2

amendment mix 2 cups total
1 part alfalfa 3-1-2
1 part crab meal 2-3-0
1/2 part neem cake
1/2 part fish meal 9-0-0

cook for 4+ weeks


full re amending soil
1 cubic ft soil
2.5 gallons humus (compost/EWC)
1.5 gallons aeration
2 oz gypsom
1 cup mineral(basalt &/or granite rock dust)

amendment mix 1 cup total
1 part alfalfa
1 part crab meal
2 part kelp meal
1/2 part fish meal
1/2 part neem cake

cook for 4+ weeks

amend as you go/partial re-amendment
(to achieve 2 consecutive grows without cooking)
top dress every 2 to 4 weeks
2 cups earth worm castings
2 tsp gypsum
1 oz amendment mix (same as above)
Click to expand...
your mixes are a lil shy on potassium man, have you maybe thought about using just steer manure as a base for your nutrients?
also like i said earlier i'm not a fan of topdressing any nutrients that aren't already cycled and available to the plant, especially if it's at a regular rate, i reaaally try to advise growers to try and get away from any "scheduled" anything. Some like to water and feed every X amount of days, and quite simply the plants don't tend to grow like that, you'll have different rates, different watering, different complications, etc.
I realize you say two to four weeks so it's not a "schedule" really, but you follow what i mean i'm sure.
the castings alone mixed 1/1 with aeration is a much better topdress in my opinion.
but if you do want to use topdresses i recommend using bat guano, seabird guano, or fish meal for those. You want soluble nutrients for that.
even still though, it's important to remember that virtually ALL organic nutrients will need the microbial interaction in order to be useable to the plant, the exception being certain forms of urea nitrogen (urine for example is immediately available and doesn't require microbial interaction to be used)
but for the most part topdresses are a lil less than optimal when it comes to organics, for that very reason.
Also it's worth mentioning that certain nutrients aren't really readily utilized from topdressing, (cations in particular)
reason i suggest manure is that it's like a multivitamin for the plant, not to mention adding humus over time, and all the nutrients degrade slowly, while simultaneously having a nice modest even amount of nutrients available rather quickly.
Steer manure (composted) is a verrry user-friendly form of nutrients
Not to mention it easily solves your lack of potassium too.

don't be fooled by the modest NPK numbers that it has, remember that you can use a LOT more of the manure in a mix than you can the nutrients.
so the NPK% is sorta irrelative considering the amounts of manure you can safely use
good friend of mine used to always say in regards to cannabis grows
"more ways than one to skin a cat"
good ole pattahabi, he was a helluva source for information on this site back in the day
in fact you can search his content for still relative information.
he's been gone for a couple yrs at least though

EDIT--- in hindsight i do see that you are wanting to use granite dust, that will have a good amount of potassium in it, however it won't be useable for probably at least a good 6 months or longer, treat it similar to greensand.
just remember that granite naturally can be radioactive... as in radiation.. as in cancer...
roughly 5% of granite is naturally radioactive.
5% is one out of 20, and dust is bound to be sourced from multiple granite slabs..
 
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im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
i was looking for a source of K a while back

I ended up settling on potassium sulfate as needed

I still have to look into (wrong spelling) lindguh something or other ...its suppose to have K
someone mentioned it a while back I have it wrote down somewhere

I have my dosatron injector set up so supplement potassium sulfate directly into my water hose
I just mixed up a batch
so its got 80ppm K and 20ppm magnesium and 1ppm iron (from magnesium sulfate) from the tap (which is very low)

the injectors have an easy on off switch so I can do plain water or turn the switch and add the potassium sulfate/magnesium sulfate and iron dtpa

after my additions its only EC 0.4 which is pretty light and hopefully wont affect the microbes
(some people got tap water with that much in it)

that should offset the foxfarm soil needs/shortages

as for calcium .. I used the organic tomato fertilizer 2oz per 20 gallon pot, it had a good bit of organic NPK & calcium (derived from gypsum) at 9% about 1 week ago so it should be kicking in soon.... I may add another oz of the tomato fertilizer and 2 cups EWC in about 2 weeks
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
so I still need a tea to keep the biology pumped up and to offset these small amounts of slat fertilizers from the Epsom salt and potassium sulfate
I know K-S is certified "organic" but its still a salt

just a tea with the primary purpose of providing beneficial bacteria

I was thinking maybe some honey in it
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
going to pick up my supplies tomorrow

alfalfa meal
kelp meal
fish meal
neem cake
gypsum
crab meal
EWC
perlite
vermiculite
rock dust

and maybe some steer manure if I can locate some

that should give what I need to re-amend this fox farm soil

after using it on its own I can see why perlite and vermiculite would be a good addition...
so the water would run threw and the soil retain moisture

as the moment the water pools at the top and it takes some time for it to pass thru
 
im4satori

im4satori

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
your mixes are a lil shy on potassium man, have you maybe thought about using just steer manure as a base for your nutrients?
also like i said earlier i'm not a fan of topdressing any nutrients that aren't already cycled and available to the plant, especially if it's at a regular rate, i reaaally try to advise growers to try and get away from any "scheduled" anything. Some like to water and feed every X amount of days, and quite simply the plants don't tend to grow like that, you'll have different rates, different watering, different complications, etc.
I realize you say two to four weeks so it's not a "schedule" really, but you follow what i mean i'm sure.
the castings alone mixed 1/1 with aeration is a much better topdress in my opinion.
but if you do want to use topdresses i recommend using bat guano, seabird guano, or fish meal for those. You want soluble nutrients for that.
even still though, it's important to remember that virtually ALL organic nutrients will need the microbial interaction in order to be useable to the plant, the exception being certain forms of urea nitrogen (urine for example is immediately available and doesn't require microbial interaction to be used)
but for the most part topdresses are a lil less than optimal when it comes to organics, for that very reason.
Also it's worth mentioning that certain nutrients aren't really readily utilized from topdressing, (cations in particular)
reason i suggest manure is that it's like a multivitamin for the plant, not to mention adding humus over time, and all the nutrients degrade slowly, while simultaneously having a nice modest even amount of nutrients available rather quickly.
Steer manure (composted) is a verrry user-friendly form of nutrients
Not to mention it easily solves your lack of potassium too.

don't be fooled by the modest NPK numbers that it has, remember that you can use a LOT more of the manure in a mix than you can the nutrients.
so the NPK% is sorta irrelative considering the amounts of manure you can safely use
good friend of mine used to always say in regards to cannabis grows
"more ways than one to skin a cat"
good ole pattahabi, he was a helluva source for information on this site back in the day
in fact you can search his content for still relative information.
he's been gone for a couple yrs at least though

EDIT--- in hindsight i do see that you are wanting to use granite dust, that will have a good amount of potassium in it, however it won't be useable for probably at least a good 6 months or longer, treat it similar to greensand.
just remember that granite naturally can be radioactive... as in radiation.. as in cancer...
roughly 5% of granite is naturally radioactive.
5% is one out of 20, and dust is bound to be sourced from multiple granite slabs..
Click to expand...
my many years in hydro and mixing my own fertilizers I have enough experience to identify and solve issues (using salt fertilizers)

I have painfully and intentionally induced deficiencies and toxicities and imbalaces in most of both macro and micro nutrient while growing in hydro

K might be the only thing I never sought to find the top and or bottom of what works
ive primarily just focus on the caution 3:2:1 or 4:2:1 because anything else throws imbalance

ive tried raising things and lowering things

raised P until iron def occurred
moved my N up and down and all around to see how little or how much is best
grown the 1:1:2 npk and the 2:1:3 and the 2:1:4 bloom formulas
played around with the iron, zinc and manganese numbers to see how they effect each other
played with the potassium, calcium and magnesium ratios to find the top and bottom for each Ca and Mg
raised copper to see if it reduces PM in spring
fed high EC and low EC grows

many years ago I even tested a whole slew of plant growth regulators (cant remember them now) trianiacol and a bunch of other hormones..had to cut some in lye and others in some poly whatever it was to get them dissolved
I never kept them I kulled them... but I was curious to see what they do to plants.. freakish experiment


so what im getting at is

although im an idiot when it comes to organics

what I do have in my favor is I understand what my plants are saying when they speak

i just need to understand what organic options (in Lou of salt fert) there are and how they work to make changes to imbalances on the fly

so just cuz i ask about tea or guano doesn't mean im going to go crazy

in my hydro experience... the most critical thing i learned was more is not always MORE
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
im4satori said:
im realizing

I throw away enough waste I could start a fucking worm farm
Click to expand...
ahh, don't do that man, cannabis has evolved perfectly to use almost exclusively what it drops the previous yr, so ALL that cannabis detritus, in scientific theory, would be THE perfect re-amendment for them.
sorta why leaf compost works so damn well, because you are just giving them what they get in nature.

im4satori said:
I have painfully and intentionally induced deficiencies and toxicities and imbalaces in most of both macro and micro nutrient while growing in hydro


so what im getting at is

although im an idiot when it comes to organics

what I do have in my favor is I understand what my plants are saying when they speak

i just need to understand what organic options (in Lou of salt fert) there are and how they work to make changes to imbalances on the fly

so just cuz i ask about tea or guano doesn't mean im going to go crazy

in my hydro experience... the most critical thing i learned was more is not always MORE
Click to expand...
yea i hear that, I've done the saaaaame things, you experiment with all sorts of different things to simply see what happens when they get pissed off, or what happens if you don't feed, or grow in cold weather, or try flowering a second outdoor crop, or growing in pure castings/compost..
none of those things end successfully, but that's only if you gauge "success" by positive endings, like i always have said, failure will teach you SO much more than success.

For the record i wasn't insinuating that you were an idiot at all, nor did i think you were gonna go crazy on the teas, my point was more that considering the research that you are doing (commendable by the way) that the purpose of that research is to provide you with the understanding of the soil-science behind it, the microbiology and the preference/efficacy for plants to have the nutrients chelated and already in the soil-web rather than using soluble nutrients to feed them.
 
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