Let's Settle this once and for all. (LED's)

I suspect that the claims of many LED manufacturers aren't supported by reality. The claims would be that they run cool and save you a lot of money on electricity.

I am speaking of low end 3 or 5w diode LED's. Not COB's. New growers or people that have not owned LED believe that LED is going to be drastically cooler and or drastically easier on their electric bill. In my experience this is not accurate and all things considered HID is still the way to go.

For comparison purposes let's assume a 3x3x 6 grow space.
Tent A has an air cooled 400w MH/HPS and a 180 CFM fan and filter.
Tent B would have a MARS hydro LED. I chose MARS only because a lot of people have them and they seem to be the best of the low cost LED's.

How many watts of "inexpensie" LED would the grower truly need to produce comparable results to the 400 HID?
what is the difference in efficiency between inexpensive LED's and HID?

Assume you sealed the two tents completely and ran no air or fans. What would the temp difference be?

It's my understanding and limited experience with an Apollo LED that leads me to believe that you need nearly the same amount of electricity to produce good yields whether you are using HID or cheap LED. I also am leaning towards the answer that LED may be cool to the touch, but heat is still a major consideration and cooling of the tent will likely be required.

Thanks for any input.

I've wondered about this too and am moving in January. I was considering changing from a 1000w HPS to LED or CFL or some combination.

"I suspect that the claims of many LED manufacturers aren't supported by reality. The claims would be that they run cool and save you a lot of money on electricity.

I am speaking of low end 3 or 5w diode LED's. Not COB's. New growers or people that have not owned LED believe that LED is going to be drastically cooler and or drastically easier on their electric bill. In my experience this is not accurate and all things considered HID is still the way to go.

For comparison purposes let's assume a 3x3x 6 grow space.
Tent A has an air cooled 400w MH/HPS and a 180 CFM fan and filter.
Tent B would have a MARS hydro LED. I chose MARS only because a lot of people have them and they seem to be the best of the low cost LED's.

How many watts of "inexpensie" LED would the grower truly need to produce comparable results to the 400 HID?"

400w HID grows I have seen were capable of 1g a watt with a good grower, and up of course with advanced techniques. I see it as a .75 g/w to 1 g/w light generally.

A 400w mars i would expect about .5 g/w average. Thats what i always managed at least. Well off of HID yields per watt. So I'd say 2 would about do it. Maybe 2 actual 300w models for a 600w total would fare well vs a 400w HID. They have just been traditionally weak flower lights, not producing the longer filled out colas that a HID is capable of. That is assuming a 400w mars is actually running at 400w. There were many journals back in the day where growers were struggling to get a g/w with perfect scrogs.

"what is the difference in efficiency between inexpensive LED's and HID?"

This has been covered pretty thoroughly. I don't remember exactly off the top of my head but your looking at around 25% efficiency for mars type that use epistar type leds. Generally considered inferior to something like a cree or oslon led that can approach 50% with the reds and 70% with the whites. HID I'm not sure again exactly, the info is out there by just looking at the respective datasheets. Off of a stoners memory the best HID are around 45%. That being the DE type, followed by a 600 hps and so forth. Generally less efficient each step down to the small 70 watters. So a small area grower can maintain top efficiency even at lower wattages using higher end LEDS. 70% vs 45% efficiency.

"Assume you sealed the two tents completely and ran no air or fans. What would the temp difference be?"

The mars types that I've run were under cooled. The heatsinks were small and fans badly placed. Assuming they fixed some of those issues i would still expect hotter than normal temps as the leds are probably running near 50c on the red bands used for flowering and the high speed fans are quickly exhausting it through your space. Depending on ambient temps it may be okay for a little while before temps start building. Eventually I'd expect it to get too hot. To run a led in a enclosed space they would have to be well underdriven and fan cooled to the point that they are running at 85f. Or, the exhausting hot air would need to be seperated from the grow space.



"It's my understanding and limited experience with an Apollo LED that leads me to believe that you need nearly the same amount of electricity to produce good yields whether you are using HID or cheap LED. I also am leaning towards the answer that LED may be cool to the touch, but heat is still a major consideration and cooling of the tent will likely be required."

Cooling needs may be reduced but definitely not eliminated. The radiant heat from the led face is minimal but the heat coming off the back of the led will warm the room quickly. Brands will vary on how much heat is being thrown out the exhaust and how much ventilation is needed.

In fact HID would be easier to cool with readily available cool tubes or hoods. I would expect using similar actual wattage the mars would be harder to maintain a good grow room temp.

"Thanks for any input."

All just my take on it. I wouldn't put it past mars to put out a good light with all the new competition out there now. I think they have a new model with a remote control, cree leds and stuff. It might be a good light but I haven't seen it used yet nor know the pricing.

And also between mars led and DIY led there are many lights capable of outproducing a HID but the price goes up quickly.

Hi @sunny747 , I notice you qualified all the LED statements above with "Cheap LEDs". Is it your belief that the 3/5W diodes are inferior both from a performance as well as an efficiency perspective to the COBs and thus you are eliminating them from your settlement?

I have 2 x 240W LED panels (older units) and I totally agree with what you're saying. This makes me wonder if I need to ditch them and setup a COB unit.

This got me reading a lot about COBs. Some are saying they can easily achieve more than 1.35 g per watt. I think I got around .6 grams per watt (Not including larf and trim) on my last run with a 400 hps. Not bad, but not the greatest. Now I HAVE to have a $800 COB rather than improve my technique

orbo said:

Hi @sunny747 , I notice you qualified all the LED statements above with "Cheap LEDs". Is it your belief that the 3/5W diodes are inferior both from a performance as well as an efficiency perspective to the COBs and thus you are eliminating them from your settlement?

I have 2 x 240W LED panels (older units) and I totally agree with what you're saying. This makes me wonder if I need to ditch them and setup a COB unit.

Click to expand...

I think there are/were some good producers of the 3 and 5 watt lights. Area 51 puts a lot of thought into their designs. If someone wanted to give theirs away I'd take it in a heartbeat. By cheap I'd probably qualify it as Chinese made panels or anything under a few hundred bucks.

I have an Apollo LED. What piece of crap for flower. Vegges great though. It's blurple color.

I'm trying to figure out how to build a Cree CXB light to cover a 3x3 very nicely.

sunny747 said:

I think there are/were some good producers of the 3 and 5 watt lights. Area 51 puts a lot of thought into their designs. If someone wanted to give theirs away I'd take it in a heartbeat. By cheap I'd probably qualify it as Chinese made panels or anything under a few hundred bucks.

I have an Apollo LED. What piece of crap for flower. Vegges great though. It's blurple color.

I'm trying to figure out how to build a Cree CXB light to cover a 3x3 very nicely.

Click to expand...

forget L.E.D and go L.E.C nanolux has a nice affordable one. http://growershouse.com/nanolux-cmh315-fixture-120-240v

Something like this would be sweet. I am not sure about the heat though. I run an air cooled hood right now so heat isn't an issue. The heat gets pumped to another room. I imagine my fan could handle this light though. Especially since I run lights at night and in the summer I shut things down for 3 months.

http://opticgrowlights.com/led-grow-lights.html

chuck estevez said:

forget L.E.D and go L.E.C nanolux has a nice affordable one. http://growershouse.com/nanolux-cmh315-fixture-120-240v

Click to expand...

Yea, that's a pretty good price. I was looking at them at the hydro store one day. Nice energy savings over a 400 hps.

How hot do they run? I'm not sure I'd be able to cool it.

sunny747 said:

Something like this would be sweet. I am not sure about the heat though. I run an air cooled hood right now so heat isn't an issue. The heat gets pumped to another room. I imagine my fan could handle this light though. Especially since I run lights at night and in the summer I shut things down for 3 months.

http://opticgrowlights.com/led-grow-lights.html

Click to expand...

Optic lights work great. I have an early version v29 360.

I saw your thread on the diy thread. Depending on your budget and growing style you can build a cxb based light that will max out a 3x3 and easily outperform any hid.

6x cxb 3590 cd @50w each would give you nice results if you can go for broke 9x [email protected] on a 30 x 30 frame would be killah and easily expandable for future projects.

testiclees said:

Optic lights work great. I have an early version v29 360.

I saw your thread on the diy thread. Depending on your budget and growing style you can build a cxb based light that will max out a 3x3 and easily outperform any hid.

6x cxb 3590 cd @50w each would give you nice results if you can go for broke 9x [email protected] on a 30 x 30 frame would be killah and easily expandable for future projects.

Click to expand...

How much heat could I expect from 300w? I run a 180 CFM fan in a 3x3 tent. With an air cooled hood I don't have ny heat issues. (Well, except for in my living room where I pump the heat to ...

sunny747 said:

How much heat could I expect from 300w? I run a 180 CFM fan in a 3x3 tent. With an air cooled hood I don't have ny heat issues. (Well, except for in my living room where I pump the heat to ...

Click to expand...

im not sure about how those different lights compare.
But .@50w each the cobs are 56% efficient.

i have the optic light and a diy cxb 4x 3590. the diy is cooler and more efficient

orbo said:

Hi @sunny747 , I notice you qualified all the LED statements above with "Cheap LEDs". Is it your belief that the 3/5W diodes are inferior both from a performance as well as an efficiency perspective to the COBs and thus you are eliminating them from your settlement?

I have 2 x 240W LED panels (older units) and I totally agree with what you're saying. This makes me wonder if I need to ditch them and setup a COB unit.

Click to expand...

YES. At your earliest convenience.

sunny747 said:

I think there are/were some good producers of the 3 and 5 watt lights. Area 51 puts a lot of thought into their designs. If someone wanted to give theirs away I'd take it in a heartbeat. By cheap I'd probably qualify it as Chinese made panels or anything under a few hundred bucks.

I have an Apollo LED. What piece of crap for flower. Vegges great though. It's blurple color.

I'm trying to figure out how to build a Cree CXB light to cover a 3x3 very nicely.

Click to expand...

Simple; two groups of four CXB3590 COB chips, each on their own 200W driver. Put one over every square foot of your tent except right in the middle, as it has plenty of overlap. That's 400W of 56% efficient lighting, PPfd of over a thousand, very bright!

#ttystikk

Lots of questions.

What ever happened to all of the claims about the deep red and bright blue/violet specturms that 3w manufacturers made? Has that mostly gone out the window?

Do most people add a lense? If so what angle?

Is there any major advantage to the CXB3590 over the Vero29?

Is there a max wattage you can drive the COB at? What happens if I hook 1 CXB3590 to a 200w driver?

ttystikk said:

Simple; two groups of four CXB3590 COB chips, each on their own 200W driver. Put one over every square foot of your tent except right in the middle, as it has plenty of overlap. That's 400W of 56% efficient lighting, PPfd of over a thousand, very bright!

Click to expand...

That's almost a parts list!!! Any preferences on the drivers? Has anyone devised a cheap and easy cooling solution yet? Last time I was in the LED thread I thought I was sent back to meet up with the Robinson family at Alpha Centuria on an episode of Lost In Space..




I envision chasing my light around with a plunger......

At 400w of HID your going to have significant improvement no matter what you upgrade to.

If I were to look at spending $800.....I would be more inclined to CDM purchase over ANY LED. I don't like the heat issues with high power DE HID!
LED's are making jumps in tech like every 6 months and whats good today is old hat next spring...

Cheap anything is always NOT the way to go....LED's are no different.

@ttystikk Bro, you know the CDM thing damn well! Explain that to him!

Doc

Ceramic discharge metal halide, CDM. I "think" they're cool and I'd recommend one to a hobby grower because I believe that this could give good results. Most if not all CDM's have to be hung vertically. I haven't had the pleasure to try one yet.

I know people that use one of those whirly bird things to help cool...saves on hydro

sunny747 said:

I suspect that the claims of many LED manufacturers aren't supported by reality. The claims would be that they run cool and save you a lot of money on electricity.

I am speaking of low end 3 or 5w diode LED's. Not COB's. New growers or people that have not owned LED believe that LED is going to be drastically cooler and or drastically easier on their electric bill. In my experience this is not accurate and all things considered HID is still the way to go.

For comparison purposes let's assume a 3x3x 6 grow space.
Tent A has an air cooled 400w MH/HPS and a 180 CFM fan and filter.
Tent B would have a MARS hydro LED. I chose MARS only because a lot of people have them and they seem to be the best of the low cost LED's.

How many watts of "inexpensie" LED would the grower truly need to produce comparable results to the 400 HID?
what is the difference in efficiency between inexpensive LED's and HID?

Assume you sealed the two tents completely and ran no air or fans. What would the temp difference be?

It's my understanding and limited experience with an Apollo LED that leads me to believe that you need nearly the same amount of electricity to produce good yields whether you are using HID or cheap LED. I also am leaning towards the answer that LED may be cool to the touch, but heat is still a major consideration and cooling of the tent will likely be required.

Thanks for any input.

Click to expand...

You are absolutely right, 3-5W diodes are not great, thanks for making that distinction.

COBs, LES diodes if you prefer, are fuuucking awesome, though.

But yeah, the cheap blurple LEDs are loud, heavy, hot, and inefficient like HID, and produce lower yield (although it tends to develop nice trichs)

orbo said:

That's almost a parts list!!! Any preferences on the drivers? Has anyone devised a cheap and easy cooling solution yet? Last time I was in the LED thread I thought I was sent back to meet up with the Robinson family at Alpha Centuria on an episode of Lost In Space..


View attachment 3549742

I envision chasing my light around with a plunger......

Click to expand...

I'm not the parts list guy. There's a 200W driver out there to do the job, whether you go with 36V or 72V chips.

After installing this light, the only person you'll be chasing around with a plunger is the one who stole your shades!

Dr. Who said:

At 400w of HID your going to have significant improvement no matter what you upgrade to.

If I were to look at spending $800.....I would be more inclined to CDM purchase over ANY LED. I don't like the heat issues with high power DE HID!
LED's are making jumps in tech like every 6 months and whats good today is old hat next spring...

Cheap anything is always NOT the way to go....LED's are no different.

@ttystikk Bro, you know the CDM thing damn well! Explain that to him!

Doc

Click to expand...

I'd be happy to, so everyone pay careful attention;

IF IT'S A BULB, IT'S OBSOLETE.

That includes the 315W CMH with the lil low freeq square wave ballast, although theirs is the best efficiency of a second rate lot.

I'm expecting my CXB3590 based modules to be competitive for many, many years. You see, the big upgrade happened when LED manufacturers began to make and sell COBs. While it's still relatively early in the technological life cycle for these chips, there's no longer a reason to wait to buy the next generation. THIS generation is plenty good enough at beating HID lighting in every relevant category, including savings over time. A looooong time.

The only reason I'd recommend HID is if you simply can't scrape up the funds for your own DIY COB LED project so in this case, do a few runs and then upgrade!

The only time it might still make sense to stick with HID is for large commercial operations or greenhouse lighting supplementation. It's about initial startup cost, every time.

I can't get into all the technicals with all the info because I don't have it all. A friend of mine used a 400wHPs he recently switched to 2 400w led high bay fixtures. His electric bill monthly went down $70 and he went up 400w in light He loves them they have grown more bigger and denser than he ever has all while cheaper.

bird mcbride said:

Ceramic discharge metal halide, CDM. I "think" they're cool and I'd recommend one to a hobby grower because I believe that this could give good results. Most if not all CDM's have to be hung vertically. I haven't had the pleasure to try one yet.

I know people that use one of those whirly bird things to help cool...saves on hydro

Click to expand...

This is a good recommendation for someone who doesn't want to screw around with their own DIY project. This year or next, COB panels will become cost competitive with HID... at which point there's no justification for sticking with bulbs.

Every lighting advance has been driven by spectrum, efficiency or both. COBs have both spectrum and efficiency advantages over HID- nevermind durability.