Let's talk serious SCROG

Hey gang. I have several scrog grows under my belt so I have. Good understanding of timing and training but I do have a more specific question.

I'm currently vegging 12 plants. Two rows of 6 under 10' x 3.4' screens. The screen is about 2-3' above the top of my buckets. So I have a little less then a foot to go until I start keeping them under and flipping. Here is my question:

Knowing that all under growth must be trimmed away because it just falls off due to lack of light. And having too many bud sites will reduce the overall size and quality of bud..(I'm talking popcorn here). I have been aggressively trimming all new shoots off the plant. My strain loves to bush out and throws tons of new shoots. In past experience, these long thin shoots, even if you can't get them above the screen, don't produce as well as the shoots that are coming off a thicker branch.

So for now, I'm trying to eliminate these new shoots and increase the size of the main trucks (about 5 per plant). My thought was that once they hit te screen or right before they do, I would stop trimming, bend sideways and let those new shoots develop buds.

Is this better than allowing some of the new shoots to grow, thicken and mature, and just keep the tip growing (eliminate aide branches on them)

I hope this makes sense.

Another way of saying it is either a: a few big branches with all the buds stemming off of them. Or B: lots of moderate sized branches that each support one bud on top.

Great question!

Thats a real toughy. The answer to that comes down to a few factors, one being how you like to grow and that can be very subjective.

By trimming smaller branches you will indeed strengthen the larger "colas", this also reduces your trimming (nobody likes trimming popcorn). When contemplating this question I go back to the core principal of SCROG; Using all available light on a uniform canopy. I see pictures and videos of people doing screen grows that they call SCROG but without an even canopy its really just LST with a support system (the screen) beyond some strings to hold the stalks down. I have even seen a grow where a screen was attached at the top of the bucket and the plant grew right through it, not bent under it once, the title of the video was "Check out my bomb scrog" or something to that effect.

If the point of SCROG is to use every single lumen available- supporting larger/taller branches may not be the best plan of attack. The tallest flower controls your light, so if a few of your buds are 12 inches high you need at least 6 inches of light penetration to get the needed lumens to lower flowers. As we all know light becomes weak very quickly, for example: If you have 1000 par watts at four inches from the source, double that distance to 8 inches and you are now down to 250w worth of light. In short- a 8 inch tall cola will be getting 4 times the light at the very top (smallest surface area as well) as the bottom. Now, if all of your flowers are only 4 inches tall, they may be smaller but more can grow in less space, allowing for consistent light penetration and, in my opinion, more yield.

Now, I must admit, smaller branches do not grow big buds, trimming skinny branches back before flowering is something that I have done for a while now, if the branch isn't above the screen I chop it. If its just a long thin-node-less stalk I will also chop it unless it fills a gap that would otherwise not be filled, I never rely on a bud to fill space and try to give every top about 2-3sq inches, this fills the area nicely and what I end up with is a very thick canopy of buds that almost seem to jostle each other as if on a subway platform in an Asian country.

Ok, this doesn't really answer your question, I get that. Here's my official stance; Light penetration is key, use every lumen, if your screen looks more like a mountain range than a field light is being wasted and therefore yield and uniformity will suffer.

Thanks for the thorough repply. I think you can adequately fill a screen with both techniques. I guess another way to look (given that bigger branches equal bigger buds) is what gives more yield many medium sized branches with 3-4 buds on each or a few very big branches with all the buds (12 or so) stemming directly off each one.

I'll post some scrog porn later.

ak.fortyseven said:

Hey Luv2gro how is the inline carbon filter going?

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keep getting called into work.. so i havent even started it yet. I did get the door swinging the right way and made a sealed/zippered entrance for it behind the door. Smell proof and climate control Maybe sat. Plus as eveybody knows its the busy season for helping homies trim up. 2'p in two days. Im over it for this month lol.

legallyflying said:

Thanks for the thorough repply. I think you can adequately fill a screen with both techniques. I guess another way to look (given that bigger branches equal bigger buds) is what gives more yield many medium sized branches with 3-4 buds on each or a few very big branches with all the buds (12 or so) stemming directly off each one.

I'll post some scrog porn later.

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Thats a valid point to make, some of the highest yielding (and nicest looking) SCROGs I have seen use that method, removing all the smaller branches and only allowing the larger ones to flourish. I failed to add that your strain plays a big part in this as well, Indicas being big and bushy will "blot out" the light from any smaller branches and make them useless. Sativas, being thinner bud formations, allow room for smaller tops to poke up and fill the canopy out.

Can't wait for some bud porn!

previous scroggs..




In my experience, whenever I had a long skinny branch that started way on the bottom of the stalk and went all the way up to through the screen, it never did very well. I kind of think its analagous to trying to move allot of water uphill through a long smal hose..it jst doesn't work so well. So I was thinking a couple big hoses with little feeders.

I would post some pictures of what I mean but they won't turn out I am sure as it looks like a mess of branches. But for what it is worth, I'm trimming the hell out of the underbrush right now.

My 1st try at scrog 1 violator kush and 1 confidential cheese hydro and 2 sour diesel soil all in same scrog, I raised the soil plants to compensate for the height difference. Using a 30'x41' pvc scrog with a 2' nylon grid. The VK is very delicate I'm running at 900ppm using the entire Fox Farm line up and still been seeing a slight burn on some leaves.The VK lot of the smaller branches have made it to the screen should I cut them or leave them. I been also having a problem with the ph hydro its been dropping from 6.0 to 5.4 overnight any ideas. I have heard if you grow from seed u should raise the screen a few inches mine is 15' above the base is that correct.

"In my experience, whenever I had a long skinny branch that started way on the bottom of the stalk and went all the way up to through the screen, it never did very well. I kind of think its analagous to trying to move allot of water uphill through a long smal hose..it jst doesn't work so well. So I was thinking a couple big hoses with little feeders."

Quoted from Legallyflying.

Thats a great analogy, now I'm going to have to run a study to see how this works out. I'm a gap filler, I hate dark spots on my canopy but you are right, smaller branches make little tiny buds and waste energy.

My current grow has a few branches that should have been cut but I wanted the lower part of the U shaped canopy to be nice and full. As the flowers are developing I'm definitely noticing a lack on fullness and very little stacking, they will most likely be 1-2 gram buds, many of them, but still small and short. My grow in veg will be trimmed mercilessly and I will do my best to support only larger tops, this does become difficult as I only have 2 plants filling a 4x4 space but if I veg it right I should be able to work it out.

Thanks for the input and gnarly bud porn! your presence on this forum is respected and we look forward to more great input.

pudge317 said:

My 1st try at scrog 1 violator kush and 1 confidential cheese hydro and 2 sour diesel soil all in same scrog, I raised the soil plants to compensate for the height difference. Using a 30'x41' pvc scrog with a 2' nylon grid. The VK is very delicate I'm running at 900ppm using the entire Fox Farm line up and still been seeing a slight burn on some leaves.The VK lot of the smaller branches have made it to the screen should I cut them or leave them. I been also having a problem with the ph hydro its been dropping from 6.0 to 5.4 overnight any ideas. I have heard if you grow from seed u should raise the screen a few inches mine is 15' above the base is that correct.

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VKs are pretty sensitive, I run even less, around 700 ppm and have tip burn as well. I don't mind a plant that is a "light eater" but man, you wanna just jam on em and you really have to use a soft hand. From what I have heard (this being my first VK grow) they will take more nutes in flower but a slow ramp up is suggested.

I'm not going to "officially" change my stance on trimming small branches just yet but the proof is in the pudding. Legallyflying's grows are beautiful and he/she is a proponent of removing the smaller branches in support of the larger ones. I won't say the jury is still out as I'm sure this style yields well but I have yet to do it myself so I can only assume at this point it is the route to go. In short, trim small branches, it wont hurt.

The Ph issue you are having could be caused by a myriad of things but I'm gonna stab at it because I have had Ph probs in hydro/soil rooms myself. I believe Ph in hydro can fluctuate due to gases and toxins released in the process of the soil medium decaying. Hardcore soil growers will tell you that they're Ph fluctuates and they correct it with feedings, if your Ph is high you can get it down by putting a lower Ph nutrient in, say your soil is at 6.8 and you want to get down to 6 you would Ph your feeding for around 5.5 and try to split the difference. Organic soils have molds, fungus and bacteria in them, constantly reproducing and dying, this creates toxins that can be offset by soil grows and ventilation but if your soil is right next to your hydro bucket or accessible water source, the gasses and bacterias can travel right over and change the compounds in your hydro system. This shows up as Ph changes and sometimes even ppm fluctuations, if a bacteria starts to thrive in your res it will eat up your nutes (and sometimes your plants).

To summarize; Soil grows can "infect" hydro grows with organic material and change the man-made balance established in the Hydro system, its best to keep these things apart when possible. I, myself have soil in the same room as hydro but try to keep them on opposite ends, with proper ventilation most problems can be avoided, I have occasional spikes but they are manageable, if your "hills and valleys" become unmanageable it may be time ti "choose sides" when it comes to what type of setup you will use.

legallyflying said:

previous scroggs..

View attachment 1802051

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Awesome pic!

that is odd that PH would decrease in hydro. Like really really weird. I would point a finger at bad mixing first.

legallyflying said:

that is odd that PH would decrease in hydro. Like really really weird. I would point a finger at bad mixing first.

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Thats another point to make, also, some people use fish tank ph up/down, that stuff is designed to slowly change ph over hours not seconds like general hydro or other brands.

mike91sr said:

Awesome pic!

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Wait till the next round... over 2x as much SCROG area. my back hurts just thinking about it.

Hahah I hear ya. Thats gonna be some yield though!! Whatre you gonna be running?

Yield is the goal .

I've got 8 white widow/big bud, 2 ak47, and 4 channel plus. all in 4G bucket based DWC

I'm looking at 8 week veg. Which is crazy I know but I'm going to get those fuckers huge, fill the scrog, then zap them with bushmaster. Hoping for 6 lbs

I haven't heard too much about that stuff, used it before? And whats your screens sq footage going to be? I'm hoping for half of that on a 3x8 screen and 2-600w lights. Probably not going to reach that on this run since its my first and i have no idea with light timing, but i want and expect consistent 3-4lb yields afterwards. Also, why not get more plants instead of vegging them for so long?

i haven't read the whole thread but questions come to mind as I read, 1st the daigram you said was scrog was in fact lst, right. Then when you say tuck them under at 4 inches do you mean they end up wrapped around the strings as in over and under or just pusHed to the next hole (don't see what that would do). I will continue reading and wait for an answer. My sig links to my grow where my setup, screen and history can be found if you have time.

found the answer , beautiful video very detailed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSArNZU_Lqs&feature=related

thunderbay said:

i haven't read the whole thread but questions come to mind as I read, 1st the daigram you said was scrog was in fact lst, right. Then when you say tuck them under at 4 inches do you mean they end up wrapped around the strings as in over and under or just pusHed to the next hole (don't see what that would do). I will continue reading and wait for an answer. My sig links to my grow where my setup, screen and history can be found if you have time.

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Well, my face is red. You are right, the first "scrog" diagram I posted is in fact an LST, thats what I get for posting other peoples diagrams when I'm high. Unfortunatly I cannot edit it so I guess people will just have to deal with the fact that I'm a derp on page 1.

The guy from budbook.org is an excellent scrogger, thank you for the link. I'm sure his vid answered your question but I will re-answer it; "Weaving" branches leads to bad things, bruising and pinching, dont do it if you can help it.

profgrow said:

Well, my face is red. You are right, the first "scrog" diagram I posted is in fact an LST, thats what I get for posting other peoples diagrams when I'm high. Unfortunatly I cannot edit it so I guess people will just have to deal with the fact that I'm a derp on page 1.

The guy from budbook.org is an excellent scrogger, thank you for the link. I'm sure his vid answered your question but I will re-answer it; "Weaving" branches leads to bad things, bruising and pinching, dont do it if you can help it.

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thank you for responding, I need advice on when to start scrog, my girls are about 7-8 inches tall and in 3.5 gal pots. I have my screen (2x2 holes) ready to go, it's setup to be 8in above the top of my pots using cfls (I know....cid blah blah) but using what's best for my situation......my lights are inches above my girls now so do I put my screen in now and raise the lights or wait till they are tall enough to poke through screen. Links to the full history are in my sig but here are pics from a couple days ago.