Light ???

Riddle gave me a heads up PM with a thought about my 2 cents on lighting.
I answered him pvt like and thought,,,,,why not.....I do have some interesting thoughts on the subject to add.

So here you go.....start to finish.

Hmm, at an early glance, I must say that I agree with your temp zone discovery.
I do about the same in one grow but, my high's are 85 as over that (in years of trying new things) I find the plant begins the "noon time lag" thing. This is related to the temps of mid to later day as I learned in college class. I do "limited" Co2 supplementation. Keep in mind that at 90F your plants will begin to slow growth at significant amounts.

My RH is kept low at around 45 to 50 to help in mold control (haven't had any in years). That's my choice.

Lighting is important in Lumen's and Nm range. If your supplying the lumen's properly, the way (or how) they are supplied is not so important.....Nm range is very important to many factors in growth.
I'm a lollypopping man and don't care to bother with way low popcorn budding....I tend to do a SCROG sort of thing and can get 1.5 per plant in a 4x4 area very easy.

Due to the size of our grows we use HID for better area lumen displacement/intensity.....The cost to effect ratio's are very carefully figured.
The use of T-5 lighting is very much a part of our Vegging! only the last 1-2 weeks is carried out under HID before the move to the flower rooms.

We can discuss more later...game starting....
Good to talk with those who know how to grow!

Doc

Wowser..GREAT GAME! (MSU vs BAYLOR)

Anyway...great thread you started there....read the whole thing.
I agree with your lighting ideas. Your giving the "intensity" needed and adjusting your light bands with the very well selected nm or bandwidth of lights.
I could not agree more with your choice of aquarium T-5 bulbs for the exact reason you state!
You've really got one of the best T-5 grows I've seen in YEARS! if I were to be growing in not a 'comercial" form as now.....I would have enjoyed playing far more with T-5 lighting.......I may just dedicate a space to it in my personal "test" area. I've got no shortage of available 8 spot fixtures to play with.....interesting that your area is at,, mmm, guessing here,,,1425 - 1465 watts of electrical use in those 3 8 spotters? How big an area is that? No shortage of intensity with 3 panels...

I too elevate my pots to be off the ground to better control pot temp zone averages. Very much so in summer DWC runs.

I still like my RH where I have it,,but do like your ratio relationship idea so much,,,,I'm going to do some runs in the test grow and employ that one! A simple 20x36 walled off and completely isolated at the back of my first building.....I do all my testing back there.....so some simple stomata tests on this will be fun...

Plants look great man....

Doc

I tend tell folks to use HID. I make that call on the amount of electric costs that can be managed. Spending as you do for specific tubes tends to be far out of reach for the average Joe you find around here most of the time. Being right as you are on the lack of importance on how the light "intensity" is delivered vs the Nm range to be used. Is lost on many around here.
I run T-5 lighting at full blue from seedling to 1-2 weeks before the flip (depending on the look of the plant and the root mass size. If I feel the root mass is not developed enough I go the 2 weeks). I switch to HPS, do small and I do mean small bump to the P&K, like .5 - .8 and run that to 2 weeks into flower. At that point it's back to MH and employ some 730nm range far red Pfr LED's running the last 5 -10 min of lights on to 5-10min after lights out.
The use of the PFR LED's allows for an extra 1.5hrs of "on" time lighting with out ANY adverse affect on blooming. In fact it reduces bloom time and increases yields at a rate that I could not ignore for the commercial size grows we run (20 full time patients and 2 dispensaries).

Here are the LED's I tested and use in our grows. Scroll down to the The Flower Initiator section and read that. In my testing of the 10 watt model (we run the 20's in the big room's) I found I liked a 15 min run time at 5min lights on and 10min lights off. I found some strains (High % and Landrace Sativa's) react better to 10min on / 5min off.....I suspect that to be a factor related to a more equatorial plant that gets longer "sunset" nm range lighting, just a theory.

http://www.led4growth.com/All Lighting Products.htm#EXPERIMENTAL PRODUCTS

As you can see, I too am a study on lighting fanatic. I know U.Ben was ,, but, seems to feel the subject has been fully researched. Till a cpl of years ago I thought that Jorge too, was the best stated on lighting. I began more looking around and called up Ed R. to ask a cpl of questions on a non-related subject and he (knowing how intense I got about lighting) broached the subject of the PAR and PFR lighting experiments he was doing......Bingo! That got my attention and off I went on that. Reading everything I could find I soon learned that most of the college level research was being focused on the PAR spectrum with low to moderate (and not very focused) looks at the 730nm PFR range, till I found some foot notes in a study from Oregon. A quick call to some Grad research students and Prof friends at MSU got the ball rolling on a more in-depth study they conducted in their Lighting lab by creating more PFR specific panels and that's how I ended up where I am now....some years later.....
I still have not tried some LED lighting more REALITY wise "tuned" to flowering spectrum's. I find this too to be of some intrest. I have seen test results that have employed this idea as a "strap on" addition to HID to increase the actual PAR or flowering (more red) nm ranges in LED's. Interesting and maybe down the road for testing by me yet.

This chart show the nm ranges of some normal LED's on the subject vs MH HID in effective chlorophyl production.



Here is a simple, yet interesting chart showing Nm range needs of MM (don't know why they had the human eye range in there).



Now here is a charting of the more focused LED (to PAR lighting) result.



The thing that gives me pause here is the almost "lack" of spectrum from 375 to 540. Ok, they make these as supplements to HID.....But note the total lack of PFR ranges!!!!

While these are said to help start or initiate bloom. I really wonder how effective it goes beyond that first week of flowering onset?

Any way, I'm beginning to ramble....

I wish I could do more outside,,,,,but a true outdoor finish is difficult at best up here.

Doc

Dr. Who said:

http://www.led4growth.com/All Lighting Products.htm#EXPERIMENTAL PRODUCTS

As you can see, I too am a study on lighting fanatic. I know U.Ben was ,, but, seems to feel the subject has been fully researched.
Doc

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Make sure your PayPal is up do date and in good standing before ordering.

Uncle Ben said:

Make sure your PayPal is up do date and in good standing before ordering.

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Hunh,,,so that's where my money goes......

Uncle Ben said:

No

This point really should not have to be stated or discussed anymore. BUT, with each crop of noobs who won't lurk or use the SEARCH feature or have their mind made up because they ingested the same old cannabis forum crap.......it's the SOS, just a different day.

Proved it with an outdoor grown plant. Next page too: http://rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-127

https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-126#post-11165602

https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/

Now, I've given you proof IN PICTURES but folks will still hang a sign on a pig and call it a dog.

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Agree 100% UB. More proof in pictures below. These are Super Lemon Haze late in week 8 with two more full weeks to go. Running 1000w HPS. Pure coco. Mostly Jack's ferts. With CO2. We have not plucked a single leaf other than the few that get damaged from time to time. We don't sacrifice the plant to the late flower PK booster burns. We do increase the PK in late weeks for better flowering but we just don't give up the N, Ca and Mg to do so. I've said it before and I'll repeat it one more time - healthy plants make better buds.

Pics were taken just after lights off with my camera so sorry for the blurred shot. But I wanted to show how the lower part of our plants yield. The buds you see are substantial. Almost every single bud is larger than a walnut, most are approaching plum and baseball size - remember two more weeks to go! As dense and yummy as almost anything up top but the main colas (of course). Those are 5 gallon tall pots and 54" tomato cages for height/size comparison purposes.

If we lollipooped these babies we would lose a significant amount of production per plant! We don't defoliate and we don't lollipop 'cause in our experience it simply lowers our overall yield. Doesn't make the buds better either. Check it out:


An earlier pic of same run. I think this was taken at about 6 weeks:

That says it all! But you don't think that's gonna change the minds of those who have been brainwashed by The Herd, do you?

Happy harvest! Oh, and try the secondary harvest drill and post some pix. If you haven't read my dittys, that means cutting or harvesting the fat colas at a point where they transition from big solid colas or collections of nuggets into the smaller ones. Then place the plants back under the lights for a while. You wouldn't harvest an apple tree all at once, eh?

Uncle Ben said:

... You wouldn't harvest an apple tree all at once, eh?

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No, but then again I can't get a donation of over $3k for each bushel of apples I pick


Seriously, I'll give it a try sometime but in this instance we've got a run that goes into the room the day after it's cut, cleaned and prepared for more yummy goodness. Skywalker OG going in. Love that strain.

How long in to flower should I keep my MH in before switching to HPS, I know from the previous posts on this thread there's a lot of emphasis being put on the mixture of light, but it's one or the other in my situation
Btw great read all the way thru this thread

said earlier first 2 weeks bloom hps then switch to mh for the rest of flowering time..i wouldve thought the other way around, but maybe the hps is only good for the initial stretch and to promote flowering, then blue spec the rest of the way to keep nodes closer and leaves greener..is that wright doc??

It's your choice. I might run both,,,,if you can. Mr.Moores states he can't.
Yeah, going back to MH does some for node spacing. You must remember that most (or the fastest part) of the stretch is in those first 2 weeks. I mainly use the MH for what I feel is a wider range of terp/thc/cbd/cbn production. The more UVB available enhances D8 & D9 Thc along with the terps. It's now being discovered that some terp profiles have an effect on the "type/style/intensity" of the buzz you get. Same for medical effects.....What I'm playing with is an attempt to increase certain terp profiles and cross reference those levels to differing effects reported by Lab testing for the profiles and from patient reports (yes, they are informed after the testing as to what it was for. You don't want test subjects "looking" for a difference in what their testing. It effects the persons ability to really give subjective reports). The use of certain chems (nutrients) effects terp profiles to. I'm doing that also...

Many long term growers use MH only.....Rev comes to mind off the top of my head.....The use of a more balanced spectrum works well.....Many like to mimic as closely the sun's spectrum. I can identify with that idea also. Some of THE BEST I've smoked has been outdoor bud. Hell outdoors finish's faster and with better quality in my book too....I run a few outdoors every year just for personal. Proper finishing is hard up here .....If I recall,,,,some of the early disp. in Cal. only took in outdoor bud due to what they deemed as quality issues with some of the indoor they were offered. Anyway. The use of Plasma lighting and Induction lighting has a better spectral mimic of the sun.....I have trouble with the cost and effective area coverage for my needs......I do plan to try it in my test area someday....."So much to do and so little time to do it".......

If running more HPS is what you feel you need to do in bloom. Maybe try flipping the HPS to a MH at say week 5 or 6 and get that little bump of the UV range and "see" what happens for your self......I do what I do for me.....That's what works for "me".....Try it if you want......I'm not a god, nor is what I say gospel.....I will never stop learning and neither should you....

What the guys are talking about above is true also.
I do lollypop but, that is due to the Scrog type of thing I do on some plants as it forms an "umbrella" like light shield blocking out lower growth....The point being is if you don't try things for your self. You'll not know if it works or not......Research is gold...take the time to....

Doc

So much interesting information here. good read. Fun for a newb like me to ponder if I'm giving a plant to much light, temp, air. Seem to be the most important stimuli besides having some N in the soil.

I've grown my plants mostly at 24" with 600w hps. I let them grow up to 18" close for the first time last week and they actually didn't seem to grow as fast as they were. Growth Measurements were smaller. It's one of those fancy blue and red hps. Got for cheap, hope it actually has some blues. At least I keep the temps almost the same as riddle and the plants like that hopefully. Anyways, thx for the info. Have fun experimenting. I'll be reading.

I have now flipped several plants that were gaslight vegged and thus far the initial stretch in the first 3 weeks has been 3 inches on all of em

TheChemist77 said:

said earlier first 2 weeks bloom hps then switch to mh for the rest of flowering time..i wouldve thought the other way around, but maybe the hps is only good for the initial stretch and to promote flowering, then blue spec the rest of the way to keep nodes closer and leaves greener..is that wright doc??

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TheChemist77 said:

said earlier first 2 weeks bloom hps then switch to mh for the rest of flowering time..i wouldve thought the other way around, but maybe the hps is only good for the initial stretch and to promote flowering, then blue spec the rest of the way to keep nodes closer and leaves greener..is that wright doc??

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Blues(MH) prevent stretch, most stretching occurs at first 2 weeks of 12/12 switch, reds promote bud growth and immitate the Sun in the final phase of a plants flowering cycle.
Taking this in to consideration it seems the orthodox approach has common sense on its side, Im not nearly as educated on light as you guys but for some one lookin for quantity (quality is always there) is this the best approach?

MrMoores said:

Blues(MH) prevent stretch, most stretching occurs at first 2 weeks of 12/12 switch, reds promote bud growth and immitate the Sun in the final phase of a plants flowering cycle.
Taking this in to consideration it seems the orthodox approach has common sense on its side, Im not nearly as educated on light as you guys but for some one lookin for quantity (quality is always there) is this the best approach?

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Not completely sure what your question is here ? But no matter your approach a mixed spectrum is best. In no way does an HPS imitate the sun !

Now that the TE has finished its 3 inch stretch, yeppers nothin like Gaslight Veg to control the stretch LOL , I thought we could revisit our little buds. Tis gettin harder to see the bottom one ,,,,

But that little bottom bitch is still keepin up, and actually is fillin in better than the top one
The top bud ,,,

The bottom bud ,,,,,

another shot of the bottom bud fillin in ,,,

RM3 said:

Not completely sure what your question is here ? But no matter your approach a mixed spectrum is best. In no way does an HPS imitate the sun !

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I asked how long in to flower I should keep my MH up before switching to HPS, fukin hard work gettin a straight answer