Lighting & Lumens

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potroast

Uses the Rollitup profile
Pot, no worries about snipping,
(240/120=2, 3amps x 2=6amps, Ohms law)
All right, all right, yeah, 2x3=6, thanks for that. Actually, I saw the 240v and said oh that's that Europe thing. (you know, the 50 hertz)

There's some confusion that surrounds CFL's and their rated wattages. On the smaller ones, they tend to be specified at their input wattage and given an equivalent incandescent light output wattage. Eg 20w CFL, outputs the same amount of light as a 100w Incandescent. On the larger more specialist CFL's as produced by Envirolite, nlite and ecolite, their wattages tend to be specified the other way round. Envirolites, nlites and ecolites are all based (as far as I'm aware) around T5 fluorescent tube technology, with the 200w Enviro, basically having 6 x T5 2 foot (or thereabouts) T5's bent in a U shape and powered by an electronic ballast. Their luminous flux, efficacy, power consumption, spectral curve and PAR watts are therefore very closely aligned to T5 fluorescents.

Regarding your question, that hasn't yet been answered - I shall do so as soon as I've found the information I require :)
Thanks, Man, this is great stuff! I know what you mean about the "light equivalent" of those CFLs, we've got to compare watts to watts.

So you are saying the T5s actually use less power than they are listed, and the light "can be" confined to those small ranges with specialty tubes?

One thing that I'm wondering about, I've known about Envirolights since they came out, I'd say at least 5 years. How come I haven't read about this before? And I'm still skeptical on the "Intensity" compared to HID, old dog/new tricks, y'know? :mrgreen:
 

shiva

Well-Known Member
how many plants could u do with 1 200w envirolite?
i'm growing two plants with just one single 200W envirolite... go check out my journal or type a search for shiva in photo gallery to see results... im only 3-4 weeks into flowering but they're doing ok for one envirolite.
 

splifman

Well-Known Member
Does anybody know how the high wattage cfl's that can be purchased in the US (at bghydro.com, texaxhydroponics.com, etc...) compare to the environlites? It seems as though envirolites are harder to come by unless you live in Europe.
I wonder if the PAR lumen output is somewhat the same or not.
 

MajoR_TokE

Well-Known Member
It seems as though envirolites are harder to come by unless you live in Europe.
The hydro shops close to my house always have them in stock... apparently they don't sell many because i see they are just on the self collecting dust. I live in western canada btw.
 

babygro

Well-Known Member
So you are saying the T5s actually use less power than they are listed, and the light "can be" confined to those small ranges with specialty tubes?

One thing that I'm wondering about, I've known about Envirolights since they came out, I'd say at least 5 years. How come I haven't read about this before? And I'm still skepical on the "Intensity" compared to HID, old dog/new tricks, y'know? :mrgreen:
I'm saying that I'm not quite sure what the 125w and 200w rating means on Envirolites and similar speciality lights, because it sure as hell isn't the input wattage of them. On standard T5 tubes (standard as in not as used in an Envirolite) wattages are pretty much what the wattage draw on them is, plus a little for the ballast. Eg a 39w T5 Fluorescent will use about 42,42 watts of electricity. I'm not quite sure what the second part of your first paragraph means, but putting aside the electrical energy draw, Envirolites will output similar lumens, kelvin temperature and colour spectrum as equivalent kelvin temperature T5 tubes.

How come you haven't read about what before?

You're quite right to be sceptical about the light intensity when compared to HID systems, because HIDs will always win out in comparison to Envirolites and similar systems due to the sheer volume of lumens HIDs put out. Where HIDs are less attractive is in the vegetative growth stage, where the required light intensity is a quarter of what it needs to be in flowering and due to the higher levels of blue light and higher PAR wattage of Envirolites, they can be far more effective and efficient than equivalent HPS systems.

Regarding your question about how many PAR watts an Envirolite outouts, I'm afraid I still can't answer that question, because the data simply doesn't exist. However, what I can do is show you the difference between a spectograph of an Envirolite equivalent fluorescent * and the original Eye Hortilux spectograph I showed you earlier.

Bearing in mind that plants do not use the green/yellow portions of the spectrum (and this is where the majority of lumens for HID systems fall, this is why they have such huge lumen ratings) it's not at all hard to see that the majority of the lumens output are within the PAR range of the visible spectrum that plants use, whereas the Eye Hortilux spectograph outputs the majority of it's lumens within that green/yellow range and far fewer in the blue and red PAR spectrum areas. Not hard to see where all the lumens are coming from is it? I'd say 70-80% of the lumen output from that Eye Hortilux bulb is outside the PAR spectrum. So if that Eye Hortilux 1000w HPS is outputing 140,000 lumens, only 28,000-42,000 lumens are actually being used by the plants, whereas on the other spectograph it's the other way round 70-80% of the spectrum being output is within that PAR range, so 70-80% of those lumens output are being used by the plants. This is precisely why lumen outputs that everyone is so fond of using are extremely misleading.

I read on the SunMaster site that they reckon their 400w HPS outputs about 128w in the PAR spectrum, that's 32% of that bulb lumen output in the PAR spectrum or 55,000 lumens x 32% = 17,600 lumens. 2 x 200w Envirolites, which output approximately 18,000 lumens each would output something like 36,000 x 70% = 25,200 lumens in the PAR spectrum. Not only that, the 2 x 200w Enviro's would cost 45% (123 x 2 = 246w - 456w = 210w) less to run!

* I'm cheating slightly because this is the spectograph of one of the new nlite purple compact fluorescents, but it does well to demonstrate the point
 

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potroast

Uses the Rollitup profile
babygro
All right, Man! you answered all of my questions, thanks much!

I was surprised that I hadn't read about this 70% PAR efficiency of Envirolights. It's easy to see why they would be very useful. When I said the T5s "can be" adapted, I meant their output can be narrowed to only that small color range. All T5 tubes aren't like that, I mean, with 70% of their lumens in the 350-500 or 600-700.

Or do they make 4 foot T5s in those ranges, too?

In your words ... cheers!

:mrgreen:
 

babygro

Well-Known Member
babygro
All right, Man! you answered all of my questions, thanks much!

I was surprised that I hadn't read about this 70% PAR efficiency of Envirolights. It's easy to see why they would be very useful. When I said the T5s "can be" adapted, I meant their output can be narrowed to only that small color range. All T5 tubes aren't like that, I mean, with 70% of their lumens in the 350-500 or 600-700.

Or do they make 4 foot T5s in those ranges, too?
You're welcome Pot, it's an interesting subject matter and certainly one where I feel that filling in some of the knowledge gaps is of benefit to everyone on here.

Regarding why you hadn't read anything before, I think it's because people are too quick to dismiss Enviros and similar products as not being 'real' lights and trot out the usual platitudes about MH, HPS blah blah.. That's really why this dicussion started in the first place. I objected to the thread starter writing a newbie guide on 'grow lights' and dismissing cfl's and fluorescents as being only good for propagation of clones and cuttings.

T5's are relatively easy (as are most fluorescents) to 'tailor' their spectral output, the manufacturers simply change the mixture of gases in the tube. That spectograph was from an Envirolite equivalent and also available as a T5 tube. T5 tubes are now close to outputting 100 lumens per watt (compared to 600w HPS - 160, 1000wHPS - 140, 400w HPS 137.5, 250w HPS 132) and with the majority of those lumens in the correct spectrum, they make excellent lights for the vegetative growth stage and for fairly small closet grows perfectly acceptable results at low operating costs for both veg and flowering.

You'll never get the ultimate perfection you get with HPS with fluorescents, because they simply do not output a sufficient volume of lumens or the small amounts of UVB radiation you get with HPS systems that produce those hard dense nugs, but for people on a budget, working in small enclosed spaces, growing a couple of plants - fluorescents in all their guises offer a very real and a very viable alternative.
 

potroast

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Yeah, so I agree that the blue spectrum CFLs would be excellent for vegging plants, but it seems to me that the long tubes would provide even lighting over a larger area, and with the lesser lighting required for vegging, you would want the light to be equally distant from the plants, rather than from 1, more concentrated, light source.

And maybe even as supplemental side lighting, the long tubes would give equal lighting over a greater area. Or the Envirolights for some primary lighting.

Great stuff, thanks again.

:mrgreen:
 

MajoR_TokE

Well-Known Member
Whilst any attempt to inform and advise newer growers to the complexities of plant light requirements should be applauded, to produce such a dogmatic one-eyed view of the situation in favour of HID and HPS systems, with no thought given at all to new lighting devlopments and techniques is almost as bad as producing no guide at all.

To say that HID and HPS systems have become the indoor growers lights of choice is perfectly true, but that's only because up until recently they were the only viable options in terms of sheer lumen output that growers had - there are other choices now with recent compact flourescent developments. To simply write off flourescents as only good for seedling, rooting clones and small plants is to completely ignore these current and recent developments.

I don't see where i wrote them off. If you look back at my original post i wrote..
The main difference is that fluorescent's create light by passing electricity through a gas vapor under low pressure and HID creates light by passing electricity through a gas vapor under high pressure. HID lights are much brighter and while initially more expensive, are more cost efficient to operate and will grow a much nicer crop. Therefore, they are the light of choice for most indoor growers.
Fluorescent

Fluorescents come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes. There are compacts, twist bulbs and circle bulbs. They all work the same way. They have a starter and ballast which help provide a steady and regulated amount of electricity to the light. Before HID lights were available indoor growers used fluorescent lights. While fluorescents can be used for an entire grow from seedling to harvest, it is generally not advised to use them in this way. To grow effectively with fluorescent's, think small. These lights are better suited for starting seedlings, rooting clones and small plants, maintaining moms for cloning purposes, and providing sidelight for the undergrowth. These situations do not require a high intensity of light to run their course. The light emitted by fluorescents is gentler and more diffuse, it doesn't release a lot of heat, and doesn't make the plant work as hard. For this reason they can be kept closer to the plant. One or two inches is sufficient, but this also means that the lights must be adjusted almost daily to accommodate growth which can be troublesome.
So basically what i was trying to say is what you just put..
You'll never get the ultimate perfection you get with HPS with fluorescents, because they simply do not output a sufficient volume of lumens or the small amounts of UVB radiation you get with HPS systems that produce those hard dense nugs, but for people on a budget, working in small enclosed spaces, growing a couple of plants - fluorescents in all their guises offer a very real and a very viable alternative.
It can be a lot of work growing this shit and i would rather have a HPS, pay a little more for electricity, and grow those centerfold buds.
 

splifman

Well-Known Member
The hydro shops close to my house always have them in stock... apparently they don't sell many because i see they are just on the self collecting dust. I live in western canada btw.
are they actually envirolites, or high wattage compact fluorescents from another company, like Ecoplus etc... ?
 

babygro

Well-Known Member
I don't see where i wrote them off. If you look back at my original post i wrote..
"While fluorescents can be used for an entire grow from seedling to harvest, it is generally not advised to use them in this way."

You know what? You're starting irritate me now.

Generally not advised to use fluorescents from seedling to harvest huh? So how come people are doing exactly that eh Major Toke? How come people are getting perfectly acceptable results by using fluorescents from seed to harvest if as you say 'it's not generally advisable'? Hmmm?

So basically what i was trying to say is what you just put..
Do me a favour! Please don't try and align anything you cut and pasted from a source elsewhere and claimed as your own with anything I might write on here. Our knowledge of this subject matter is light years apart. As far as you're concerned fluorescents are only good for seedlings and clones, as far as I'm concerned fluorescents can be used for the entire grow, not only that, the only part of growing where HPS is superior is in flowering - fluorescents piss all over HPS in vegetative growth for tight internode spacing. Half the reason people on here have plants whose height is totally unmanageable in their small grow spaces is because the assholes veg with your beloved HPS systems! Because people like you who don't know any better tell them to for gods sake!

It can be a lot of work growing this shit and i would rather have a HPS, pay a little more for electricity, and grow those centerfold buds.
That's your opinion! If you 'attempt' to write a guide to plant lighting for newbies even if most of it is copied and pasted from other sources, at least try and offer a balanced viewpoint on the various merits of each system. You can't and didn't because you don't have the depth of knowledge necessary to offer a truly balanced viewpoint on the various strengths and weaknesses of the various lighting systems and plant lighting requirements at the different phases of growth. That's the problem when you simply 'rip off' what someone else wrote.

I'm only interested in educating and expanding peoples understanding of plant lighting, and helping them to find the right kind of lighting according to their situation and circumstances, so they can grow some decent home grown bud. You're only interested in the, as you put it 'centrefold buds' your drug dealer buddies achieve with craploads of HPS lights.

Therein lies the difference between us, so please don't try and align your views to mine.
 

loverweed

Active Member
Whilst any attempt to inform and advise newer growers to the complexities of plant light requirements should be applauded, to produce such a dogmatic one-eyed view of the situation in favour of HID and HPS systems, with no thought given at all to new lighting devlopments and techniques is almost as bad as producing no guide at all.

To say that HID and HPS systems have become the indoor growers lights of choice is perfectly true, but that's only because up until recently they were the only viable options in terms of sheer lumen output that growers had - there are other choices now with recent compact flourescent developments. To simply write off flourescents as only good for seedling, rooting clones and small plants is to completely ignore these current and recent developments.

Compact flourescent lights (cfl) can and do offer a very viable alternative to HID and HPS systems in many smaller grower situations.

There are three distinct disadvantages to HID and HPS lights in relation to the newer cfls -

1) They're more expensive to run in terms of wattage used;
2) They produce a lot more heat build up, requiring more expensive and sophisticated extraction and ventilation systems;
3) Whilst lumen output is high, a lot of those lumens are lost through not being the correct light spectrum and having to be positioned so far away from the tops of plants due to the heat. The further away a light is from its target the less lumens it receives.

The new Envirolite compact flourescents overcome the traditional drawbacks to flourescent lights by providing much higher lumen outputs than have previously been available, but just as importantly provide the correct colour spectrum output in the two versions available for vegetative and flowering growth. In other words, all the lumens you get with envirolites are used by the plants. Current Envirolites come in two sizes and two 'colour temperatures' -

Blue for vegetative growth (350 – 500 NW) in 125w (12,000 lumens) and 200w 18,000 lumens)
Red for flowering growth (600 – 700 NW) in 125w (12,000 lumens) and 200w (18,000 lumens)

The other advantages to these Envirolites is the ability to position the lights inches away from the tops of plants due to the much lower heat output - thus the plants receive all the lumens available.

It's not hard to see that by using 2 x 200w Envirolites positioned close to the tops of plants can produce a lumen output of around 36,000 lumens, which compares very well to that of a standard 400w HPS or HID system outputting 50,000 lumens but having to be positioned 2 feet away from the tops of the plants. Not only do the 2 200w Envirolites provide a similar lumen output to the 400w hps (when distance is factored in) they're also cheaper to run and produce far less heat output.

It's fair to say that the cost of a 2 x 200w Envirolite system (2 x 200w blue and 2 x 200w red) + hood is probably around 30% more expensive than an equivalent HPS system, that extra money is easily recouped by the lower operating costs in terms of wattage used over a period of their use.

Don't dismiss Envirolite compact flourescents so easily - they do provide a very viable alternative to the more common and widespread use of HID and HPS systems.

Hey Wus Sup, This Is My Frist Time Trying To Grow Some Weed. What Do I Need, What Kind Of Dirty Do I Need?? Light Howmany, I Want To Grow At Least 2 Or 3 Plants??? Some One Help Please?
 

MajoR_TokE

Well-Known Member
As far as you're concerned fluorescents are only good for seedlings and clones, as far as I'm concerned fluorescents can be used for the entire grow, not only that, the only part of growing where HPS is superior is in flowering - fluorescents piss all over HPS in vegetative growth for tight internode spacing. Half the reason people on here have plants whose height is totally unmanageable in their small grow spaces is because the assholes veg with your beloved HPS systems! Because people like you who don't know any better tell them to for gods sake!
Now you say flloros piss all over HPS for veg... well i already know this. Was this even an argument? Um.. No. We are talking about flowering here man. I didn't say that they are only good for seedlings and clones... i said
While fluorescents can be used for an entire grow from seedling to harvest, it is generally not advised to use them in this way. To grow effectively with fluorescent's, think small. These lights are better suited for starting seedlings, rooting clones and small plants, maintaining moms for cloning purposes, and providing sidelight for the undergrowth. These situations do not require a high intensity of light to run their course. The light emitted by fluorescents is gentler and more diffuse, it doesn't release a lot of heat, and doesn't make the plant work as hard. For this reason they can be kept closer to the plant. One or two inches is sufficient, but this also means that the lights must be adjusted almost daily to accommodate growth which can be troublesome.
 

splifman

Well-Known Member
What are you referring to here?
LOL! That was directed at Major Toke's partial responce to my initial question. There was supposed to be a quote there. I just went back and edited the post.

But I'm just trying to find out how all these other high wattage cfls compare to envirolites. Envirolite has an extensive website explaining why their lights are so useful for horticulture, but all these other companies that make a similar product don't have any explanations about lumen output, PAR lumens or anything along those lines. I want to buy a few of these lights and if I have to order them from Europe I will, but if the ones sold here are a good substitute then I'd rather go with them.
 

shiva

Well-Known Member
only one way to settle this!

FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, please, please, can we all just chill out a bit...

please?



p.s. spliffman. My entire grow has been done with one single envirolite at any one time... I have 2 envirolites, one blue spectrum for veg, one red obviously for flowering... but only one light growing 2 plants... I don't think they are doing too badly...

I'm in the UK and I bought my envirolites for cost-effectiveness not just initial costings but for running costs too. I also purchased them for their low heat output as I was paranoid about police heli's picking up heat sources being extracted into the big wide world... I think enviros are great. On the other hand, I would love to try a grow with HPS lights but this was my first grow and I'm really glad I used the lights I chose... now i'm coming to the end of my first, I may change my setup....

go check my journal if you're at all interested.
 

splifman

Well-Known Member
p.s. spliffman. My entire grow has been done with one single envirolite at any one time... I have 2 envirolites, one blue spectrum for veg, one red obviously for flowering... but only one light growing 2 plants... I don't think they are doing too badly...

I'm in the UK and I bought my envirolites for cost-effectiveness not just initial costings but for running costs too. I also purchased them for their low heat output as I was paranoid about police heli's picking up heat sources being extracted into the big wide world... I think enviros are great. On the other hand, I would love to try a grow with HPS lights but this was my first grow and I'm really glad I used the lights I chose... now i'm coming to the end of my first, I may change my setup....

go check my journal if you're at all interested.
Shiva, your plants look great dude. It really shows what those lights are capable of.
 

splifman

Well-Known Member
Yo Shiva, do you think that envirolite could be sufficient for a 3'x3' grow area. I mean, I know they work great when they are right above one plant, but would it be enough for several other plants in the grow space?
 
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