Lollipopping

Uncle Ben said:

"Bubbleicious", cute name.

Do you grow C99?

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Well damn, I should have read your post closer. So I guess UB doesn't grow Bubblelicious.

C99? No, haven't grown purely C99. But I've grown a few TGA strains which are crossed with it. Vortex has some Cindy in it. That strain is extreme dankness. Wait a second, has growing subcool strains become a forum paradigm yet? Shit!

And to Bob's point about the g/watt, I guess if you wanted to compare grower to grower then g/watt is valid but how would you believe the other person's numbers in such a pissing contest? If we were trying to see who is a better grower and I said I got more g/watt than you would you believe me? The only real use for it would be to experiment with your own grow. For instance if I want to see how adding CO2 improves my yield I would first do a "control" grow without CO2 and calculate my g/watt. Then I would do the same grow and add CO2. But if I changed the feed levels at all during any point in either grow then I'm not really measuring what the CO2 did. I'm measuring what the CO2 did PLUS what the change in feed did. Maybe it's not a big difference, maybe it is. Add in that there are many more variables which you would have to keep impossibly constant between the grows and the difference gets much bigger and harder to understand. The point is that if you want to use g/watt to measure how a change in one variable affects your grow then it won't always be accurate.

Uncle Ben said:

How many of you lollipoppers own a light meter that registers to 10K f.c.?

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I have a GE analog light meter that registers to 10,000 ft.candle. I would appreciate a good light range that is "acceptable" for the lower, middle and upper areas of the plant.

I haven't done any "lollypoping" yet though, other than cutting off some lower fan leaves and stems of my clones, but I will admit I have considered experimenting with it due to space constraints.

Katatawnic said:

Oh, I think it works just fine...


[youtube]2QLiEgCN350[/youtube]


Check out fdd2blk's threads (if you do a tag search for "tunafish" you'll find many of his) to see about SCROG outdoors; if it's in the video, I'm guessing it'll be in his journal(s). The one I'm thinking of has something to do with "a gallon of gas" in the title.

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Thanks kat will do, nice video btw

firelane said:

Here is a link to a successful grow, with lots of pics, of someone using "lollipopping" This is not my grow, but it shows that this technique can work. Also I have heard that keeping the leaves green until harvest, makes for some very leafy buds, that look a lot bigger than they weigh out.

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/254203-i-am-perpetual-14.html#post3540986

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nice link, proves a point i say..........................

firelane said:

Here is a link to a successful grow, with lots of pics, of someone using "lollipopping" This is not my grow, but it shows that this technique can work. Also I have heard that keeping the leaves green until harvest, makes for some very leafy buds, that look a lot bigger than they weigh out.

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/254203-i-am-perpetual-14.html#post3540986

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This is a keep em green bud (6th week) not sure what you mean by leafy?

NavySupra said:

I have a GE analog light meter that registers to 10,000 ft.candle. I would appreciate a good light range that is "acceptable" for the lower, middle and upper areas of the plant.

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Probably the same one I have, a 617 I believe it is. Light reddish brown with milky lens?

"A good light range" is dependent on your other factors. Needless to say, if you're not providing sufficient N, Fe, and Mg then positioning a HID such that the plant is receiving 10,000 f.c. is gonna bleach out the chlorophyll, which of course disrupts photosynthesis. So....you use it as a tool like you would any other type of meter to monitor light received by the leaves. The real issue is total photons received over the course of a day, not necessarily how much light is being projected. So, a good starting point for a 20/4 veg photoperiod might be say.......about 6,000 f.c., measured about 6" into the canopy, direct line of sight to the hood.

I haven't done any "lollypoping" yet though, other than cutting off some lower fan leaves and stems of my clones, but I will admit I have considered experimenting with it due to space constraints.

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If you grow in a cabinet, yes, you will have space constraints......one reason why I would NEVER grow in a box or a cabinet. For indoor growing I might as well be in a cabinet as the leaves are a solid mass at the lower and mid levels - crisscrossed and stacked on top of each other as my photos have shown. Still, unlike the parroting mantra "pull them leaves off since they don't receive light", I usually don't lose lower leaves. If you're losing lower leaves, then you need to review your program - something's wrong and it has nothing to do with light penetration into the canopy, that's just a ruse used by an incompetent gardener to save face or his/her pride. Those that have more than one or two indoor grows under their belt and understand plant culture can verify this fact.

UB

Uncle Ben said:

Probably the same one I have, a 617 I believe it is. Light reddish brown with milky lens?

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A closer looked revealed that it is only a 1000 scale, model 217. I must be dislexic or something to have not noticed it only went to 1000 instead of 10,000. Gray body, milky "receiver" OH!

I remember what happened, I lost the filter plate that would let me take up to 10,000 ft.candle readings.

Uncle Ben said:

If you grow in a cabinet, yes, you will have space constraints......one reason why I would NEVER grow in a box or a cabinet. For indoor growing I might as well be in a cabinet as the leaves are a solid mass at the lower and mid levels - crisscrossed and stacked on top of each other as my photos have shown. Still, unlike the parroting mantra "pull them leaves off since they don't receive light", I usually don't lose lower leaves. If you're losing lower leaves, then you need to review your program - something's wrong and it has nothing to do with light penetration into the canopy, that's just a ruse used by an incompetent gardener to save face or his/her pride. Those that have more than one or two indoor grows under their belt and understand plant culture can verify this fact.

UB

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I've only got two grows under my belt, but both previous grows were a single plant under a 400w HPS.

This is the first time I've organized my setup enough to have two separate areas and more than one plant.

By loosing lower leaves are you speaking of leaves that "naturally" die off from lack of light, or leaves that get pruned back because it is "thought" it is in the best interest of production?

I am dealing with a strain that is supposed to handle being short, as my maximum finished height can be no more more than 20" from exposed stem to the top of the cola. Each plant should have a little more than a square foot of horizontal area to itself.

What would be the "optimal" way of preparing the clones for their new environment. Right now my clones are 6" tall, with the bottom two nodes cut of fan leaves and stems.



You can see a few of my clones off to the right of the picture and my savagely cut back mothers. The flowering area will be a slightly smaller horizontal space, with about the same vertical room. I will also only be doing alternating rows of 2 planters instead of 4, to allow space for the flowering plants.

NavySupra said:

I remember what happened, I lost the filter plate that would let me take up to 10,000 ft.candle readings.

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Same one I have. But the meter still works? You should be able to get the 10X snap on plate from GE.

By loosing lower leaves are you speaking of leaves that "naturally" die off from lack of light,

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I thought I made myself clear in my previous posts. That is a myth that became a forum paradigm. My lower levels receive little light, and I still retain most of the leaves. Look at the previous photos of the lowest levels, look at my avatar. According to the paradigms in this place, they would be considered being in a cave.

or leaves that get pruned back because it is "thought" it is in the best interest of production?

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Well, I guess since most folks posting to RIU do not understand the function of a leaf, so, that would be a moot question getting a benign response from me.

I am dealing with a strain that is supposed to handle being short, as my maximum finished height can be no more more than 20" from exposed stem to the top of the cola. Each plant should have a little more than a square foot of horizontal area to itself.

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Who says? A plant is a plant. Give me that damn thing, I'll show you what I think of such black/white "facts" lol.

What would be the "optimal" way of preparing the clones for their new environment.

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Giving them what they need to build a strong root system with alot of foliage. I can't advise you on that, it's your call.

The mothers' color looks great but they look a little stunted to me. Those are leafy plants, what is the NPK value of the food they're getting?

firelane said:

Here is a link to a successful grow, with lots of pics, of someone using "lollipopping" This is not my grow, but it shows that this technique can work.

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Hate to clue you in, but it is the norm for cannabis to produce colas.

Hasn't proved a thing other than someone needs some help when it comes to understanding leaf health. He could have easily doubled his output if he had managed his garden correctly. Anyone can produce bud, not everyone can produce a healthy plant with thick stems, good foliage, and fat colas from top to bottom.

Also I have heard that keeping the leaves green until harvest, makes for some very leafy buds, that look a lot bigger than they weigh out.

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/254203-i-am-perpetual-14.html#post3540986

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Well, I guess since you heard it, it must be correct. You're using a lame defense to make your case. My avatar's main cola and secondary buds were as hard as rock, I mean so dense air couldn't get thru such that I had a small bout of rot. Guess how they got so dense?

UB

UB,

Yeah I will get another plate for it when my lamps come in.

As far as nutes are concerned I will look at my stuff tonight and figure out what it actually is. I've been doing by "feel" with just tsp per gallon of each of my nute bottles.

Four of those plants were burned as seedlings under a 400w hps, from me putting them too close. Then they were under a horribly low powered flouresent fixture for a while. Now as you see them in that pic they were bushes before that picture and I cut them back for space.

I just haven't decided which of those plants I will keep and which I will distroy, but the fact they have survived my abuse thus far makes me happy.

In regards to the leaves, I must have miss read something because I just wanted to understand better what you were talking about when you have so many leaves that light doesn't get through. My lack of experience doesn't allow me to visualize what you are talking about. I do understand that more healthy leaves equals more tasty bud.

terrorizer805 said:

How many you got going right there?
And how big is that room?

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6 Plants,the closet is 5 1/2' x 3 1/2'

Uncle Ben said:

Hate to clue you in, but it is the norm for cannabis to produce colas.


Well, I guess since you heard it, it must be correct. You're using a lame defense to make your case. My avatar's main cola and secondary buds were as hard as rock, I mean so dense air couldn't get thru such that I had a small bout of rot. Guess how they got so dense?

UB

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I am starting to see what u mean ben. After looking at those pics more, I realized if he was a more skilled grower, he could have left more on, and if nothing else make hash with it. His colas don't look any bigger than those of a normal plant either.
But....... it would be intersesting to see how the same garden I posted would look if he hadn't lollipopped the plants.

The thing about the buds being leafier was a total rumor, I just wanted to see if you believed there was any truth to it. The guy who told me this has grown pot his way for 10 years now. His grows are always pretty successfull, so in his mind, everything he does is correct. I know there is more than one way to skin a cat. I have pretty much stopped asking him for advice, because he is just so stubborn, and sometimes acts like what UB calls a parrott. He has definitely bought into all of the snake oils and forum myths. I believe I am smarter than most people, so I try to draw my own conclusions, from my own experiences. I may be wrong for years, but one day after many failures and successes, I will draw my own conclusion on growing techniques. Until I have found what works best for me.

There is a saying, that fits this argument perfectly, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" This statement is true, not because the old dog is to dumb to learn this new trick, or because this new trick is better than old tricks, but because after 50 doggy years, Fido has figured out what works for him, and isn't learning all of the new tricks to impress anyone. It seems that as dogs(and people) age, they listen to fewer and fewer people. Rightfully so.

firelane said:

I am starting to see what u mean ben. After looking at those pics more, I realized if he was a more skilled grower, he could have left more on, and if nothing else make hash with it. His colas don't look any bigger than those of a normal plant either.
But....... it would be intersesting to see how the same garden I posted would look if he hadn't lollipopped the plants.

The thing about the buds being leafier was a total rumor, I just wanted to see if you believed there was any truth to it.

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You're on the right track, good on ya! There is marketing tool used by seedbanks that I guess registers with the new. Ever heard of the "high calyx to leaf" ratio? That may be where you're coming from.

He has definitely bought into all of the snake oils and forum myths.

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Whether it's music, art, or growing pot, if one allows themselves to be manipulated by the masses, you've only got yourself to blame.

There is a saying, that fits this argument perfectly, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" This statement is true, not because the old dog is to dumb to learn this new trick, or because this new trick is better than old tricks, but because after 50 doggy years, Fido has figured out what works for him, and isn't learning all of the new tricks to impress anyone. It seems that as dogs(and people) age, they listen to fewer and fewer people. Rightfully so.

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Or in other words, "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong."

Only understanding what makes a plant tick will set you free.

NavySupra, my meter bit the dust but my plate is still around, I think, I need to find the meter. If need be, I'll send you my 10X free gratis if your meter is OK. Let me know.

Good luck,
UB

Uncle Ben said:

You're on the right track, good on ya! There is marketing tool used by seedbanks that I guess registers with the new. Ever heard of the "high calyx to leaf" ratio? That may be where you're coming from.

Whether it's music, art, or growing pot, if one allows themselves to be manipulated by the masses, you've only got yourself to blame.

Or in other words, "a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong."

Only understanding what makes a plant tick will set you free.

NavySupra, my meter bit the dust but my plate is still around, I think, I need to find the meter. If need be, I'll send you my 10X free gratis if your meter is OK. Let me know.

Good luck,
UB

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Wow thank you kindly UB!

I am the, read as much as I can about something and still do it my own way until I figure out what works, kind of person... lol. Though I do like to try and pick what seems to be logical approach.

So I put a teaspoon of *each* of the following into a gallon of well water. I feed whenever the plants "look" hungry, and hammer the food into them during flowering, and at that ratio the two previous grows were satisfactory to me.

Oh, I should mention, just because I can read numbers off a package, doesn't mean I know what they are for. Ask me about diesel engines... I like plants, but the art&science of it hasn't clicked for me yet.

Botanicare - Liquid Karma (0.1-0.1-0.5)
Green Planet Hydroponics - Hydrofuel Groei A (3.5-0-3.5)
Green Planet Hydroponics - Hydrofuel Groei B (0.7-.62-1.9)
Green Planet Hydroponics - Hydrofuel bloei A (3.5-0-3.21)
Green Planet Hydroponics - Hydrofuel bloei B (0-2-4.5)
Power Pack - Synergy Series - Has a bunch of elements listed on the front.
Grozyme - The more I look at the label, the more it fits the snake oil category with "secret ingredients)

This thread should be renamed [ the how many heads can i get up uncle bens butt thread ] lol.lick lick.

Katatawnic said:

Jeez UB, you really are nothing but a rude jerk!

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Thanks, I do my best!

NavySupra said:

Wow thank you kindly UB!

So I put a teaspoon of *each* of the following into a gallon of well water.

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Ouch! Your total TDS must have been outrageous. It's the sum of the parts beginning with your well water, which I'm sure has a high TDS to begin with unless you're in an area that receives alot of rainfall/snow melt.

I feed whenever the plants "look" hungry, and hammer the food into them during flowering, and at that ratio the two previous grows were satisfactory to me.

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Put down the hammer unless you really want to "nail them". Less is more.

Oh, I should mention, just because I can read numbers off a package, doesn't mean I know what they are for.

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Time to get some book learnin' on plant nutrition, eh?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/fertilizer/nutri_def.html
http://retirees.uwaterloo.ca/~jerry/orchids/nutri.html
http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

Mel Frank's MJ Insider Growers Guide has the best chapter on plant nutrition of any I've seen.

Ask me about diesel engines...

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OK. I have a farm tractor with about 300 hours on it and have never changed the hydraulic screen filter or fluid. Fluid still still looks light in color and clear using the eyeglass as an indicator. Hydraulics get used alot with a front end bucket and about 5 different implements. In fact, just yesterday I busted (chiseled) another row for wine grapes with my subsoiler and then followed up with a blade to dress it up. Aint nothing like getting down 2' bustin' up clay loam.

Botanicare - Liquid Karma (0.1-0.1-0.5)
Green Planet Hydroponics - Hydrofuel Groei A (3.5-0-3.5)
Green Planet Hydroponics - Hydrofuel Groei B (0.7-.62-1.9)
Green Planet Hydroponics - Hydrofuel bloei A (3.5-0-3.21)
Green Planet Hydroponics - Hydrofuel bloei B (0-2-4.5)
Power Pack - Synergy Series - Has a bunch of elements listed on the front.
Grozyme - The more I look at the label, the more it fits the snake oil category with "secret ingredients)

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7 rocket fuels, eh? I won't ask what you paid for that stuff. Yeah, ya gotta luv dem "secret ingredients" they always hype about. Recommend you get a handle on plant nutrition, your NPK and micro values. I can look at those NPK values and tell you they won't produce/support foliage. Try to produce and support as much foliage as you can going into flowering and retain that until harvest. Your rewards will be bountiful.

UB

Uncle Ben said:

Thanks, I do my best!



Ouch! Your total TDS must have been outrageous. It's the sum of the parts beginning with your well water, which I'm sure has a high TDS to begin with unless you're in an area that receives alot of rainfall/snow melt.

Put down the hammer unless you really want to "nail them". Less is more.


Time to get some book learnin' on plant nutrition, eh?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/fertilizer/nutri_def.html
http://retirees.uwaterloo.ca/~jerry/orchids/nutri.html
http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

Mel Frank's MJ Insider Growers Guide has the best chapter on plant nutrition of any I've seen.

OK. I have a farm tractor with about 300 hours on it and have never changed the hydraulic screen filter or fluid. Fluid still still looks light in color and clear using the eyeglass as an indicator. Hydraulics get used alot with a front end bucket and about 5 different implements. In fact, just yesterday I busted (chiseled) another row for wine grapes with my subsoiler and then followed up with a blade to dress it up. Aint nothing like getting down 2' bustin' up clay loam.

7 rocket fuels, eh? I won't ask what you paid for that stuff. Yeah, ya gotta luv dem "secret ingredients" they always hype about. Recommend you get a handle on plant nutrition, your NPK and micro values. I can look at those NPK values and tell you they won't produce/support foliage. Try to produce and support as much foliage as you can going into flowering and retain that until harvest. Your rewards will be bountiful.

UB

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I've been looking at those links, but I guess my next question is, what is the suggested reading for figuring my best selection for the conditions? IE. veg growth vs. flowering, mothers vs. clones.

Oh and in regards to your tractor, we do our hydrolic filters every 500 hrs and replace the fluid every 2000. We also have 270L in the reservoir tank... (edit: forgot to mention that all filters were changed at 50 hrs to help keep things clean from break-in.)

So since I cut back the rocket fuel my plants went from nice and green with slightly burned leaf ends, lots of growth to the "burning" expanding further and yellowing with stunted growth. So I went from well tap water(which is probably on the hard side), plus rocket fuel to just hard well water. I've started gently adding some more food to the plants for the time being but I need to expand my understanding without relying on special instruments other than my eyes and hands.

I would say my watering is on the heavy side still, I was getting nagged at, about it today.

NavySupra said:

I've been looking at those links, but I guess my next question is, what is the suggested reading for figuring my best selection for the conditions? IE. veg growth vs. flowering, mothers vs. clones.

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Check out my posts under my name.

Oh and in regards to your tractor, we do our hydrolic filters every 500 hrs and replace the fluid every 2000. We also have 270L in the reservoir tank... (edit: forgot to mention that all filters were changed at 50 hrs to help keep things clean from break-in.)

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Thanks. I know that it's advised that all fluids be changed after the break in period.

So since I cut back the rocket fuel my plants went from nice and green with slightly burned leaf ends, lots of growth to the "burning" expanding further and yellowing with stunted growth. So I went from well tap water(which is probably on the hard side), plus rocket fuel to just hard well water. I've started gently adding some more food to the plants for the time being but I need to expand my understanding without relying on special instruments other than my eyes and hands.

I would say my watering is on the heavy side still, I was getting nagged at, about it today.

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What's the NPK values, frequency etc. Tell the little lady to be gentle with ya.

Uncle Ben said:

Check out my posts under my name.



Thanks. I know that it's advised that all fluids be changed after the break in period.



What's the NPK values, frequency etc. Tell the little lady to be gentle with ya.

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Yeah thats what the better half keeps telling me, that it's plant moisture stress.

I believe it is more of an issue with improper feeding for the vegetative state. After I read as much as I could as to why the very ends of the leaves were "burning" but everything else was very healthy with lots of growth, I read that it could be caused by being a little over powered with the feeding. So I went to just straight water for a couple weeks with the occasional pre-mixed food 1:10 to water. So I really pulled back the amount of available food. Growth was pretty good for a while, even after I topped the plants and made my first clones of them.

When they started to get to tall and I had to trim them back a second time, perhaps I got too aggressive with them and they didn't like it, on top of that having provided limited food over the last couple weeks

Also NPK and TDS are still unknown acronyms for me. I guess this is what I meant by the reading material, or the material I looked at in those links hasn't sunk in yet.