Looking for a good and reliable pump for reservoir for two 4x6 ebb and flow tables

I plan to buy the flood tables from there. I guess it will be three 4x4 tables.

http://www.hydrosystem.ca/flowtable_a.html

Anything heard of them before?

@HydroRed

I was just getting information about fertilizers. So far I did read about the Lucas Formula. I would buy GHE Flora Bloom and GHE Flora Micro and use reverse osmosis water and only top off the reservoir with a float valve and just adding nutes again and again without ever changing the reservoir.

I did find that method (Advanced-Add Back) here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=124487

What do you think about that?

Also it seems like with that method you never need to adjust the PH???? What substance do you use for adjusting your ph?

What do you think about all that?

Sam&Max said:

@HydroRed

I was just getting information about fertilizers. So far I did read about the Lucas Formula. I would buy GHE Flora Bloom and GHE Flora Micro and use reverse osmosis water and only top off the reservoir with a float valve and just adding nutes again and again without ever changing the reservoir.

I did find that method (Advanced-Add Back) here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=124487

What do you think about that?

Also it seems like with that method you never need to adjust the PH???? What substance do you use for adjusting your ph?

What do you think about all that?

Click to expand...

The add back method is awesome, but at some point you would need to change the res due to salt buildups. Most that run that way run 50% topoff then change the res out completely. So if you have a 50gal res and you have replenished 25 gallons with top off you need to change the res.
Every setup and water/nute mix is different. The pH stability will depend on the water itself and the buffers in the nutes you use. Personally, I've always been happy with the pH stability of GH nutes. I also use GH pH Down with good results.

HydroRed said:

The add back method is awesome, but at some point you would need to change the res due to salt buildups. Most that run that way run 50% topoff then change the res out completely. So if you have a 50gal res and you have replenished 25 gallons with top off you need to change the res.
Every setup and water/nute mix is different. The pH stability will depend on the water itself and the buffers in the nutes you use. Personally, I've always been happy with the pH stability of GH nutes. I also use GH pH Down with good results.

Click to expand...

Glad to see you here!

Yes I heard about the salt buildup. What is it exactly? Is it the thing that plants consume different amounts of different nutrients and when adding back nutrients you create more and more an uneven distribution of nutrient in the reservoir?

The thing I am wondering about is that the guy in the thread which I linked said that changing the res after e.g. 50% (actually he says he changes the reservoir after 100%) without the adding nutes before is the Simple Change-out method and with the Advanced-Add Back method where he just wants to top off he never mentions about changing the reservoir???

Sam&Max said:

Glad to see you here!

Yes I heard about the salt buildup. What is it exactly? Is it the thing that plants consume different amounts of different nutrients and when adding back nutrients you create more and more an uneven distribution of nutrient in the reservoir?

The thing I am wondering about is that the guy in the thread which I linked said that changing the res after e.g. 50% (actually he says he changes the reservoir after 100%) without the adding nutes before is the Simple Change-out method and with the Advanced-Add Back method where he just wants to top off he never mentions about changing the reservoir???

Click to expand...

ya, everyone has their own method. Salt buildup is the byproduct of salts in your nutes. The plants wont take up the salts, but rather go deficient and stop nutrient uptake all together when the salts get too high. Also, you are going to want to clean everything just for cleanliness and maintenance reasons and you cant do that with a full res. Even on my cleanest res, I still need to change it out to wash the walls of the res, clean bubblers, pumps, change lines etc every so often. I dont know anyone who could get away with NEVER changing a res or cleaning their hydro gear. You would encounter problems for sure doing that.
The simple change-out just means topping off with plain water, and the advanced is being able to calculate your EC or ppm and figure out how much nute to add back on each top off. Even at 100% with advanced add back method he still changes his res out after the 100% top off has been reached.

haha, that guy he said he never tried that advanced method before but it is his first try after years of theorising.


So you do a clean up while growing not only between the grows?

I did read of somebody using forakleen. http://gb.eurohydro.com/florakleen.html

If I use that, do I never need to change the res?

They claim you can use it anytime you want and it dissolves the salt buildup....

Sam&Max said:

haha, that guy he said he never tried that advanced method before but it is his first try after years of theorising.


So you do a clean up while growing not only between the grows?

I did read of somebody using forakleen. http://gb.eurohydro.com/florakleen.html

If I use that, do I never need to change the res?

They claim you can use it anytime you want and it dissolves the salt buildup....

Click to expand...

wishful thinking my friend, but you gotta clean your res no matter what style of growing you do or what chemicals you put in your res. I only clean inbetween harvests but usually change out the res (without cleaning pumps, filters, res walls etc) 2 times in an 8 wk flower period. I went as far as not changing the res at all in a 8 wk flower period but dont recommend it. If I remember correctly I was using floranova bloom and the salt buildup was insane. Nothing will be a better remedy for salt buildup than changing out your res for fresh solution.

HydroRed said:

wishful thinking my friend, but you gotta clean your res no matter what style of growing you do or what chemicals you put in your res. I only clean inbetween harvests but usually change out the res (without cleaning pumps, filters, res walls etc) 2 times in an 8 wk flower period. I went as far as not changing the res at all in a 8 wk flower period but dont recommend it. If I remember correctly I was using floranova bloom and the salt buildup was insane. Nothing will be a better remedy for salt buildup than changing out your res for fresh solution.

Click to expand...

So 2 times in an 8 wk flower period might be good.

But did you use a product like forakleen against the salt built up when you didn't change the res? Actually please tell me how did you notice salt built up?

Actually I googled a bit more and did find another variant:

There are two ways to work with this formula:

1. Top off the reservoir daily using a pH corrected water solution as required to maintain full reservoir level. After adding back an amount of water equal to the amount of your reservoir capacity you should change the reservoir and put in fresh solution.

2. Top off the reservoir daily using a pH corrected 100% strength nutrient solution as required to maintain full reservoir level. Continue to use this nutrient solution without dumping the tank unless the PPM rises above acceptable levels.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/general-questions-on-the-lucas-formula.272729/

compared to the (wishful thinking ) method which I mentioned before:

Advanced Add-Back method:
If you have a EC/tds/ppm meter you can increase your yield by maintaining a constant level of nutrients throughout the grow. This is done by periodically adding back nutrients to your reservoir and works best when used in combination with a float valve to continually keep the reservoir topped off with RO.

Additional Note: DO NOT check pH or TDS/PPM/EC without first making sure the res is topped off.

Those numbers are useless to you and will only confuse you until you fully understand. (They’re still useless to me. LOL)

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=124487

The difference between these to seems to be that they first method tops off with water that is ph corrected and has already 100% strength nutrients in it. Which would mean that after some time the PPM in the res will rise. I guess that is because the plants consume more water than fertilizer?

In the second version it is claimed to never change the rez when correcting ph and nutrients after topping off. You try to hold the ppm at a certain level.

@HydroRed Can you please tell me how you add your nutrients? After topping off or before? And are you using Reverse Osmosis water?

Sam&Max said:

So 2 times in an 8 wk flower period might be good.

But did you use a product like forakleen against the salt built up when you didn't change the res? Actually please tell me how did you notice salt built up?

Actually I googled a bit more and did find another variant:

There are two ways to work with this formula:

1. Top off the reservoir daily using a pH corrected water solution as required to maintain full reservoir level. After adding back an amount of water equal to the amount of your reservoir capacity you should change the reservoir and put in fresh solution.

2. Top off the reservoir daily using a pH corrected 100% strength nutrient solution as required to maintain full reservoir level. Continue to use this nutrient solution without dumping the tank unless the PPM rises above acceptable levels.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/general-questions-on-the-lucas-formula.272729/

compared to the (wishful thinking ) method which I mentioned before:

Advanced Add-Back method:
If you have a EC/tds/ppm meter you can increase your yield by maintaining a constant level of nutrients throughout the grow. This is done by periodically adding back nutrients to your reservoir and works best when used in combination with a float valve to continually keep the reservoir topped off with RO.

Additional Note: DO NOT check pH or TDS/PPM/EC without first making sure the res is topped off.

Those numbers are useless to you and will only confuse you until you fully understand. (They’re still useless to me. LOL)

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=124487

The difference between these to seems to be that they first method tops off with water that is ph corrected and has already 100% strength nutrients in it. Which would mean that after some time the PPM in the res will rise. I guess that is because the plants consume more water than fertilizer?

In the second version it is claimed to never change the rez when correcting ph and nutrients after topping off. You try to hold the ppm at a certain level.

@HydroRed Can you please tell me how you add your nutrients? After topping off or before? And are you using Reverse Osmosis water?

Click to expand...

I dont use any flushing agents, beneficials or anything like that. I run a sterile res.
Im currently running a new dry nutrient called Mega Crop so I've been changing the res in 2 wk intervals. After the initial res fill I will top off with straight pH corrected water only. My ppm begin to dive every time I top off with fresh water. By the time I reach the 2 week period and am ready to change the res, my ppm are a fraction of what they were when I began the fresh res. When you do it like this, there doesnt seem to be the abundance of salts like that of a res topped off with ppm adjusted nutrient water topoffs.
Usually the plants will tell you when the salt buildup is present by dispaying a deficiency or a lockout. More often than not a medium flush & fresh res change will fix it right up. Results and remedies in hydro come much faster than in soil.
Before the new dry nutrient change, I used GH 3 part (only use 2 if you follow a strict lucas formula), an 0-18-16 P-K bloom booster, 3% H2o2 @ 10ml or so per gal, and tap water. I add my nutes, booster, H2o2 then pH last.

HydroRed said:

I dont use any flushing agents, beneficials or anything like that. I run a sterile res.
Im currently running a new dry nutrient called Mega Crop so I've been changing the res in 2 wk intervals. After the initial res fill I will top off with straight pH corrected water only. My ppm begin to dive every time I top off with fresh water. By the time I reach the 2 week period and am ready to change the res, my ppm are a fraction of what they were when I began the fresh res. When you do it like this, there doesnt seem to be the abundance of salts like that of a res topped off with ppm adjusted nutrient water topoffs.
Usually the plants will tell you when the salt buildup is present by dispaying a deficiency or a lockout. More often than not a medium flush & fresh res change will fix it right up. Results and remedies in hydro come much faster than in soil.
Before the new dry nutrient change, I used GH 3 part (only use 2 if you follow a strict lucas formula), an 0-18-16 P-K bloom booster, 3% H2o2 @ 10ml or so per gal, and tap water. I add my nutes, booster, H2o2 then pH last.

Click to expand...

So when you added the the nutes, booster, H2o2 then pH, then you did put it directly into the reservoir or did you create a solution which you put into the reservoir? I guess it is the first option?

I need to put the H2o2 on my list. Some people seem to advise the use of 35% percent H2O2 because the 3% solution has added stabilizing substances which might be unwanted in the system.

It looks like the liquid PH down of GHE is expensive.... I wonder if I need a PH down with Reverse osmosis water...

Sam&Max said:

So when you added the the nutes, booster, H2o2 then pH, then you did put it directly into the reservoir or did you create a solution which you put into the reservoir? I guess it is the first option?

I need to put the H2o2 on my list. Some people seem to advise the use of 35% percent H2O2 because the 3% solution has added stabilizing substances which might be unwanted in the system.

It looks like the liquid PH down of GHE is expensive.... I wonder if I need a PH down with Reverse osmosis water...

Click to expand...

Either way, its the same result whether put directly in the res or premixed in a jug then added.
I pay $9 a quart for GH pH down. Depending on how bad your pH is that you are trying to correct, it last quite a while. Needing it for RO water just depends on what the pH is from it to start with. Lots of times nutrients can lower the pH in the water whether it be RO or tap.
The reason I use 3% H2o2 is because I have a small res (27 gallon and I only fill it with about 10-12 gal of water) and 3% is very forgiving. Not to mention I can get a 64 oz bottle for under a $1.

HydroRed said:

Either way, its the same result whether put directly in the res or premixed in a jug then added.
I pay $9 a quart for GH pH down. Depending on how bad your pH is that you are trying to correct, it last quite a while. Needing it for RO water just depends on what the pH is from it to start with. Lots of times nutrients can lower the pH in the water whether it be RO or tap.
The reason I use 3% H2o2 is because I have a small res (27 gallon and I only fill it with about 10-12 gal of water) and 3% is very forgiving. Not to mention I can get a 64 oz bottle for under a $1.

Click to expand...

I don't really understand that... If you put everthing in the res and then adjust then you get the desired values. But if you premix and then put the solution in the res you will create a mixture between the values of the res and the premixed solution, which will be something else.

Yes I did read that the RO water is pretty unstable considering the ph. I guess I will top off and then adjust the ph if necessary.

Maybe I really overestimate the need to adjust the ph...

Actually the method of topping off then add nutes and hold a target ppm seems like a method between:

- topping off with ph water only, changing the res in smaller intervals
and
- adding 100% strength solution until the ppm shoot too high

I think I will try that method first and change the res in 2 or 4 week intervals. Then I will see how it is in reality. I am really a lot of theorising but have not grown hydroponically.

And I will use forakleen for flushing and H2O2 for health and have a bottle of ph down at hand if I need it.

Thank you very much for your advices!

Sam&Max said:

I don't really understand that... If you put everthing in the res and then adjust then you get the desired values. But if you premix and then put the solution in the res you will create a mixture between the values of the res and the premixed solution, which will be something else.

Click to expand...

True, but not if you mix up the same values in the jug as what you are trying to replace or achieve in the res.
Say you have a 500 ppm target in your res and you are currently at 360, you will need to mix a stronger ppm in an individual top off jug to bring the ppm in the res from 360 back up to your target ppm of 500. Make sense? This requires some math which is why they refer to it as "advanced" haha.
Sounds like you have a firm grasp on what is required to have a successful hydroponics grow. Best of luck!

yep... understood

@HydroRed What tubing size should I go for? Will 3/4" be enough?

Mostly depends on the pump fitting. If the pump comes with multiple flanges, then use the largest. If that happens to be 1/2" then use 1/2" for your fill side and then 3/4" for the drain side. You always want the drain larger than the fill. I'd suggest 50% larger or better no matter what size you end up using.

the pump has 19 mm (3/4 ") / 25mm (1" ) / 33 mm (1 1/4 ").

and the ebb and flow inlet and overflow have each 1".

So should I take a 3/4 " hose to flood the table (surely I can connect the 3/4 hose to the 1" inlet somehow) and then use a 1" hose for the overflow?

It seems like going bigger than that doesn't make sense because of the 1" restriction of the inlet and the overflow and because the overflow should be bigger than the inlet.

But that would mean that the overflow is only 25% bigger than the inlet. Or I go with a 1/2" hose for the inlet. Then the 1" overflow would be 50% bigger. I don't know so much about waterflow, but do you know if I reduce the hose diameter of the inlet to 1/2" if the filling time of the tables take much longer?

I am going to get some which are similar like the ones on the picture.

I realized there is a valve at the inlet. These vavles are there for regulating the inlet? If his works it would make it easier to match the waterflow properly in relation to the overflow or filling time.

Somehow this valve looks like has a smaller diameter than all the other parts.... I really need to see what they will send me and if it matches the specifications. :/

ok, I see what you have now. This may make more sense then....
Yes the fill and drain you pictured are good. You are correct in the valve being to measure the flow vs the drain rate. This way you can run 1" on both fill and drain.
The bulkheads I use are like this:
1/2" fill & 3/4" drain (with collars you can stack on the drain to adjust the flood height in the table)

I am going to get this kind of hose. It is a 1 inch hose which is used for suction. Hoses for suction dont twist easily and don't deflate. Imagine if you would put a pump on the hose and suck something and then the hose is only moved a bit and suddenly nothing works anymore because it is kinked....

This hoses have some kind of metal spiral inside. To bend the hosing properly in the wished shape, I will use a heat gun and warm it a bit before bending.....

The reason I use them is because they are cheap, have the right size and I don't want the hoses to sag or kink when going from the reservoir to the tables and back. I want to have the nutrient solution move freely. I hope they are something in between normal hosing and pvc pipes.

Another reason I use them is, that I might probably put the reservoir outside of the room because of CO2, which would mean that I would have longer ways to cover with the hoses which probably would require the sturdiness these hoses provide.

But I am not absolutely sure yet if I will put the reservoir outside of the room, as this would mean that I would need to heat the nutrient solution because the temperature outside of the room is probably too low....