LP Aero/NFT setup questions/issues

So first, I must say I haven't finished my setup so I don't know if things will change! However I had some questions. I'm building a low pressure aero/NFT/soakponics whatever you want to call it setup using 5 gallon buckets. I have the buckets set up with poly line from the pump, and plan to have them elevated and draining from the bottom of the buckets back in to the reservoir. I'm using an active Aqua 800gph submersible pump and ez clone spray tips, 2 per bucket. At the moment I have the reservoir set up and buckets connected, but haven't started working on the drains. Also the res is set up at a higher level than the buckets just while I set it up before I move it all indoors. The problem I'm having is when I test the system 2 things occur:

1) when the buckets are elevated above the reservoir I'm getting a severe decrease in water pressure/output of the spray tips. I'm not sure if it's because the elevation change effects the water pressure, or if it's because the hose lines straighten out and end up causing the water to have to run at more of a straight up angle. I think it's both. Will I need a higher gph pump?

And 2) when my pump shuts off there is a siphon effect causing the spray tips to continuously drip water out unless I disconnect the hose from the pump. However this only happens when the buckets are lower than the res, so will having them raised above it prevent this from being an issue?

Hopefully the pictures give some better insight as to how I'm setting it up. Right now I only have 3 buckets raised up, but when finished I plan to have them all raised. Thanks guys!

Pics:

Sur4guy213 said:

So first, I must say I haven't finished my setup so I don't know if things will change! However I had some questions. I'm building a low pressure aero/NFT/soakponics whatever you want to call it setup using 5 gallon buckets. I have the buckets set up with poly line from the pump, and plan to have them elevated and draining from the bottom of the buckets back in to the reservoir. I'm using an active Aqua 800gph submersible pump and ez clone spray tips, 2 per bucket. At the moment I have the reservoir set up and buckets connected, but haven't started working on the drains. Also the res is set up at a higher level than the buckets just while I set it up before I move it all indoors. The problem I'm having is when I test the system 2 things occur:

1) when the buckets are elevated above the reservoir I'm getting a severe decrease in water pressure/output of the spray tips. I'm not sure if it's because the elevation change effects the water pressure, or if it's because the hose lines straighten out and end up causing the water to have to run at more of a straight up angle. I think it's both. Will I need a higher gph pump?

And 2) when my pump shuts off there is a siphon effect causing the spray tips to continuously drip water out unless I disconnect the hose from the pump. However this only happens when the buckets are lower than the res, so will having them raised above it prevent this from being an issue?

Hopefully the pictures give some better insight as to how I'm setting it up. Right now I only have 3 buckets raised up, but when finished I plan to have them all raised. Thanks guys!

Click to expand...

1) Yes you are loosing pressure because of elevation. Yes you need a bigger pump if you want to run your set up as you're planning.
2) You will need to have your res below the root chambers.

May I ask why you are building your "aero/nft" set up this way? No offense, but I am not really understanding why you are saying its using the nutrient film technique. I am not saying that your set up wont work, but I thing you could do a lot better, with less energy, and the same investment using a traditional fence post aero/nft set up. I have a thread about mine. The link is in my signature. Good luck man.

I like the concept. Makes each bucket modular.

Pond pumps don't make much pressure, by design, they produce volume. I think reducing down to the small lines is restricting the pump. Flow decreases exponentially as pipe size decreases, 1/2" pipe flows something like 220% less than 3/4" pipe. Any way to run 1/2" all the way into the bucket, then have multiple sprayers?

AKGrowAreo said:

1) Yes you are loosing pressure because of elevation. Yes you need a bigger pump if you want to run your set up as you're planning.
2) You will need to have your res below the root chambers.

May I ask why you are building your "aero/nft" set up this way? No offense, but I am not really understanding why you are saying its using the nutrient film technique. I am not saying that your set up wont work, but I thing you could do a lot better, with less energy, and the same investment using a traditional fence post aero/nft set up. I have a thread about mine. The link is in my signature. Good luck man.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info! Originally I had planned to do it in 6 or 8 inch PVC and do the traditional NFT/aero route like you mentioned, however I was having a hard time sourcing the PVC and didn't discover the fence post concept till later (I think I may actually have learned it from your thread! Awesome stuff). At that point I was committed to the 5 gallon buckets, which ended up being considerably cheaper than the PVC would have been. Also I like to think it's more of an adjustable setup, I can move the buckets around if I need to, I have about a foot or so in either direction of movement per bucket. Also the net pots are larger, and I'm thinking I'll have more space for the roots so I could grow some larger plants in there if I wanted to. I call it NFT because I know the HP aero guys can be real sticklers about calling these set ups aeroponics. The spray nozzles aren't misting as much as they are squirting on the roots, and once the roots hit the bottom the nutes will wash over them and drain out of the bottom. I'm still learning though so I'm probably not calling it by the right name haha. I'm hoping after a couple runs I can save some money up and covert it to high pressure aero. We'll see how this goes first! Thanks for the answers though I really needed that!

WeedFreak78 said:

I like the concept. Makes each bucket modular.

Pond pumps don't make much pressure, by design, they produce volume. I think reducing down to the small lines is restricting the pump. Flow decreases exponentially as pipe size decreases, 1/2" pipe flows something like 220% less than 3/4" pipe. Any way to run 1/2" all the way into the bucket, then have multiple sprayers?

Click to expand...

I didn't think about that, that's a good idea. All the fittings I have run on 1/4" though. Maybe if I run 3/4" or 1" on the main lines it will provide more flow into the 1/4" that runs into the bucket? Or will it be the same either way?

You guys are awesome thank you!

Sur4guy213 said:

I didn't think about that, that's a good idea. All the fittings I have run on 1/4" though. Maybe if I run 3/4" or 1" on the main lines it will provide more flow into the 1/4" that runs into the bucket? Or will it be the same either way?

You guys are awesome thank you!

Click to expand...

It'll be the same. It's the 1/4" lines that are the restriction.
You good at math? Fluid flow gets kinda complicated. Area of a circle =radius of the circle squared x Pi (3.14)
Area of a 1/2" hose =.25 ×.25=.0625 x 3.14=.196Sq inches
Area of a 1/4" hose = .125 ×.125 =.0156×3.14 = .049 Sq inches
.196/.049=4, you need 4 .25"ID hoses just to match the same area of a single 1/2"line

Now here's the kicker, those 4 .25" ID lines are going to have more resistance than a single 1/2" because there is more that 4 times the surface area inside creating more friction. This will reduce flow rates. When you actually calculate flow, which is a factor of pressure and pipe size, you need something like 8 or 10( I can't find my notes) .25" ID hose to match a 1/2" I'd hose flow rate, which will help keep pressure. Also because these are low pressure pumps, they don't like long lengths of pipe, again more internal surface to make more resistance.

Pretty much pond pumps need to be run with no resistance to hit their flow and pressure ratings, any resistance dramatically drops flow.

These systems work best with large dia (1/2"+) supply lines right up to the point of sprayers.

If it was me, I'd run a length of 1/2" pvc through a grommet in the side of the bucket, put in 3-4 spray heads and put quick disconnects on the ends. Hook everything up with 1/2" line.

If your going to stick with it the way it is. I'd say shorten up the 1/4" lines as much as possible to reduce restrictions and try adding 2 more spray lines to each bucket to increase flow and reduce restrictions, probably the simplest and cheapest option right now.

Sur4guy213 said:

Thanks for the info! Originally I had planned to do it in 6 or 8 inch PVC and do the traditional NFT/aero route like you mentioned, however I was having a hard time sourcing the PVC and didn't discover the fence post concept till later (I think I may actually have learned it from your thread! Awesome stuff). At that point I was committed to the 5 gallon buckets, which ended up being considerably cheaper than the PVC would have been. Also I like to think it's more of an adjustable setup, I can move the buckets around if I need to, I have about a foot or so in either direction of movement per bucket. Also the net pots are larger, and I'm thinking I'll have more space for the roots so I could grow some larger plants in there if I wanted to. I call it NFT because I know the HP aero guys can be real sticklers about calling these set ups aeroponics. The spray nozzles aren't misting as much as they are squirting on the roots, and once the roots hit the bottom the nutes will wash over them and drain out of the bottom. I'm still learning though so I'm probably not calling it by the right name haha. I'm hoping after a couple runs I can save some money up and covert it to high pressure aero. We'll see how this goes first! Thanks for the answers though I really needed that!



I didn't think about that, that's a good idea. All the fittings I have run on 1/4" though. Maybe if I run 3/4" or 1" on the main lines it will provide more flow into the 1/4" that runs into the bucket? Or will it be the same either way?

You guys are awesome thank you!

Click to expand...

Cool man. I am looking forward to seeing it all come together. I agree with @WeedFreak78 that you should use 1/2" lines. I think your PSI is getting bottlenecked in that 1/4 inch line. You could even use 1/2" garden hose (potable RV/marine style) and hook it all up using super cheap garden hose repair stuff. Just a thought.

Easycloner misters need 22 gallons per hour per hear to achieve a proper "mist" even though LP is not a true mist, more of a spray. speaking from experience, HPaero may be the "coolest" looking type of grow, but its honestly not worth the hassle in my opinion. I have done multiple apples to apples side by side comparisons between HP and LP and the quality is always exactly the same and the only advantage is slightly higher yields, like 5% more, and way more headaches than you get with LP. Plus you cannot run organic nutes with HP aero because it clogs the sprayers. IMO, don't waste your time.

As for figuring out the drainage, looks like you have a big ass Botanicare res or similar. I would make a lid for it that would be strong enough to hold all of your buckets and just drill holes straight through the bottom of your buckets and the lid of your res. One 1" hole in the middle, and four outer holes. You may want to set down a vinyl screen to prevent the roost from growing into the res too much.

I think you're safe calling it LP Aero/NFT as long as you let your roots completely drain between spraying. To achieve this you will need to use and interval timer/cycle timer, whatever you want to call it. Buy one that is adjustable. 80 seconds on and 8 minutes off is the best time for LP aero/nft. This will keep your res temps lower because the pump will not be running all the time thus heating the water. If you do not let your root chambers fully drain between sprayings then you WILL GET ROOT ROT. Avoid root rot like the plague! Run a chiller of some type, it will save you 1000 headaches. The DIY one that I talk about in my thread is cheap and easy to make. Its also way more effective and efficient than anything you can buy.

I think your set up could be really cool. If you afford to do all the things I just mentioned, I would recommend looking into DWC, but with that said, your gonna have way more control with aero/NFT and you're off to a great start.

One last tip, run Botanicare nutes. I have a great Botanicare based formula in my thread. If you don't run Botanicare, still get their hydroguard and silica blast because IMO those additives cannot be beat.

Sur4guy213 said:

So first, I must say I haven't finished my setup so I don't know if things will change! However I had some questions. I'm building a low pressure aero/NFT/soakponics whatever you want to call it setup using 5 gallon buckets. I have the buckets set up with poly line from the pump, and plan to have them elevated and draining from the bottom of the buckets back in to the reservoir. I'm using an active Aqua 800gph submersible pump and ez clone spray tips, 2 per bucket. At the moment I have the reservoir set up and buckets connected, but haven't started working on the drains. Also the res is set up at a higher level than the buckets just while I set it up before I move it all indoors. The problem I'm having is when I test the system 2 things occur:

1) when the buckets are elevated above the reservoir I'm getting a severe decrease in water pressure/output of the spray tips. I'm not sure if it's because the elevation change effects the water pressure, or if it's because the hose lines straighten out and end up causing the water to have to run at more of a straight up angle. I think it's both. Will I need a higher gph pump?

And 2) when my pump shuts off there is a siphon effect causing the spray tips to continuously drip water out unless I disconnect the hose from the pump. However this only happens when the buckets are lower than the res, so will having them raised above it prevent this from being an issue?

Hopefully the pictures give some better insight as to how I'm setting it up. Right now I only have 3 buckets raised up, but when finished I plan to have them all raised. Thanks guys!

Click to expand...

Check out the link in my sig--------some of my experiences with aero / nft.

A~~~

WeedFreak78 said:

It'll be the same. It's the 1/4" lines that are the restriction.
You good at math? Fluid flow gets kinda complicated. Area of a circle =radius of the circle squared x Pi (3.14)
Area of a 1/2" hose =.25 ×.25=.0625 x 3.14=.196Sq inches
Area of a 1/4" hose = .125 ×.125 =.0156×3.14 = .049 Sq inches
.196/.049=4, you need 4 .25"ID hoses just to match the same area of a single 1/2"line

Now here's the kicker, those 4 .25" ID lines are going to have more resistance than a single 1/2" because there is more that 4 times the surface area inside creating more friction. This will reduce flow rates. When you actually calculate flow, which is a factor of pressure and pipe size, you need something like 8 or 10( I can't find my notes) .25" ID hose to match a 1/2" I'd hose flow rate, which will help keep pressure. Also because these are low pressure pumps, they don't like long lengths of pipe, again more internal surface to make more resistance.

Pretty much pond pumps need to be run with no resistance to hit their flow and pressure ratings, any resistance dramatically drops flow.

These systems work best with large dia (1/2"+) supply lines right up to the point of sprayers.

If it was me, I'd run a length of 1/2" pvc through a grommet in the side of the bucket, put in 3-4 spray heads and put quick disconnects on the ends. Hook everything up with 1/2" line.

If your going to stick with it the way it is. I'd say shorten up the 1/4" lines as much as possible to reduce restrictions and try adding 2 more spray lines to each bucket to increase flow and reduce restrictions, probably the simplest and cheapest option right now.

Click to expand...

Extremely useful advice, thank you! I haven't done math in a while but what you said totally makes sense, I was thinking it would be half the area instead of 1/4 in comparison to the .5" line but it makes total sense. For laziness sake I'm going to try and shorten up the .25" line because I do have them way longer than is necessary, hopefully that will help. If not I think I'll try running it in .5" line through the buckets and see if that makes a big enough difference, I imagine it will. Otherwise I may go 1/2" and additionally put in a bigger pump. Great advice though thank you!

AKGrowAreo said:

Cool man. I am looking forward to seeing it all come together. I agree with @WeedFreak78 that you should use 1/2" lines. I think your PSI is getting bottlenecked in that 1/4 inch line. You could even use 1/2" garden hose (potable RV/marine style) and hook it all up using super cheap garden hose repair stuff. Just a thought.

Easycloner misters need 22 gallons per hour per hear to achieve a proper "mist" even though LP is not a true mist, more of a spray. speaking from experience, HPaero may be the "coolest" looking type of grow, but its honestly not worth the hassle in my opinion. I have done multiple apples to apples side by side comparisons between HP and LP and the quality is always exactly the same and the only advantage is slightly higher yields, like 5% more, and way more headaches than you get with LP. Plus you cannot run organic nutes with HP aero because it clogs the sprayers. IMO, don't waste your time.

As for figuring out the drainage, looks like you have a big ass Botanicare res or similar. I would make a lid for it that would be strong enough to hold all of your buckets and just drill holes straight through the bottom of your buckets and the lid of your res. One 1" hole in the middle, and four outer holes. You may want to set down a vinyl screen to prevent the roost from growing into the res too much.

I think you're safe calling it LP Aero/NFT as long as you let your roots completely drain between spraying. To achieve this you will need to use and interval timer/cycle timer, whatever you want to call it. Buy one that is adjustable. 80 seconds on and 8 minutes off is the best time for LP aero/nft. This will keep your res temps lower because the pump will not be running all the time thus heating the water. If you do not let your root chambers fully drain between sprayings then you WILL GET ROOT ROT. Avoid root rot like the plague! Run a chiller of some type, it will save you 1000 headaches. The DIY one that I talk about in my thread is cheap and easy to make. Its also way more effective and efficient than anything you can buy.

I think your set up could be really cool. If you afford to do all the things I just mentioned, I would recommend looking into DWC, but with that said, your gonna have way more control with aero/NFT and you're off to a great start.

One last tip, run Botanicare nutes. I have a great Botanicare based formula in my thread. If you don't run Botanicare, still get their hydroguard and silica blast because IMO those additives cannot be beat.

Click to expand...

Yea I happen to have a stupid amount of drip line laying around thanks to our old landscape business so I might end up going that route with the .5". And the high pressure thing does seem really cool, I think the sex appeal is definitely the biggest factor as to why I want to try it so bad, but in order to do it right does seem pretty expensive and quite a hassle. Plus it seems like all the experienced growers, like you, have said that it's too much of a pain without the results to back it up. I need to go back and reread your info on the diy chiller because that is something I've neglected to address and I would hate for that to ruin my crop! My last attempt at aero I was running about 1 minute on and 5 off which seemed okay but I think your timing sounds like a good bet.

I've heard the same thing about the organic nutes not working in aero too which is a big turn off. I had a pretty decent organic feeding plan for my old soil grows and I was hoping to use a similar line up. I think I am going to using botanicare for this run since I'm starting from scratch, it's reassuring to hear you back it. I've heard mixed things about dyna gro though and some people swear by it, which had me interested. I think it'd be fun to try a dwc set up, it's something I might try down the road or maybe in conjunction with this set up. What about those TreeFrog set ups by Multiponics? I think those super hybrid ideas are cool but I've heard that roots will adapt to being soaked in the water and won't end up benefiting as much from the aero setup. What do you guys think?

As far as drainage goes I - again, due to the old business - have an obscene amount of PVC and fittings laying around that I'm going to use to fashion up a drainage system. I think the lid idea is really good, it is a botanicare res but it's only slightly longer than 3' and when I've got the 4 buckets lined up they stretch about 4 feet long. I could definitely build a table up above it though and drill drains straight through the table. I too was thinking some kind of mesh to keep roots out would be a good idea, how fine would it have to be?

Thank you all for being super informative and spreading the knowledge! I'm learning loads of stuff from you.

Alaric said:

Check out the link in my sig--------some of my experiences with aero / nft.

A~~~

Click to expand...

I will check that out ASAP