Lucas Formula Recipe from Scratch "Really"

fatman7574 said:

0-14-24 means zero ppm of nitrogen, 14% is 1400 ppm Phosphorus, 24% is 2400 ppm potash. However they did not list the concentrate. IE say the dilution factor.

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ok, I just wanted to clarify 1 small point. The package % date lists the formula as 0-14-24, however from my understanding, this cannot be directly converted to
N - 0 ppm
P -1400 ppm
K - 2400 ppm
as ppm is not the same as %, as their particle sizes (ppm) are different by weight (%)

For example, using cannastats calculator, the 0-14-24 formula, at 1g/gallon, would equate to
N - 0 ppm
P - 16 ppm
K - 53 ppm
which if it was freely converted without conversion to %, would be 0-16-53, or scaled downslightly to match P ratios, 0-14-45
so we have 0-14-45 compared with 0-14-24 with different methods used, which one would be correct?

Were not talking particle numbers or Avogadro's numbers etc. ppm is defined as parts per million as a measurement of mass concentration dissolved in a specific weight of solution. The convention is to assume the solution of water is pure at normal atmospheric pressure at 20 degrees C, so it has a mass of 1000 grams per liter. Therefore using this assumption it is in mg/L IE milligrams per liter of water. Particle sizes has nothing to do with it as all. it is not a measurement of a number of particles in a solution. You also have to consider that most calculators also consider that a bagged fertilizer such as Phosphorus is sold as P2O5 but that is covert to P by the calculator by multiplying by 0.437. And K as sols is K2) and it is converted to K by multiplying by 0.83. That is not clearly indicated by the software packages shell graphics. It is simply done automatically and internally. I very much doubt that I ran anything through a, spread sheet or even used paper, pencil and calculator yet alone conversions. I simply looked at the ppm ar analysis numbers of the trace nutrients in their concentrates of an unknown strength. the cannastats calculator is simply a cheap spread sheet and obviously flawed if it is giving you such outputs. Either that or your inputting incorrectly, as 14% is either (14*100) = 1400 ppm or it is (14*100*0.437) = 611.8 ppm if converting from P205 to usable P. 14% can not become 16% nor ever become 16 ppm. It takes 1000 * 1000 ml to make a million. 1000 * 1000 mg to make a million.

One thousandth of a gram is one milligram and 1000 ml is one liter, so that 1 ppm = 1 mg per liter = mg/Liter.
ppm is derived from the fact that the density of water is taken as 1kg/L = 1,000,000 mg/L, and 1mg/L is 1mg/1,000,000mg or one part in one million.

yes, I see what happened. The industry standard for labels read the ingredients as P2O5 % and K2O %, but the ppm conversion is different because the usable is a lesser amount than the listed % as you mention the downscale factor). Although the outputs are correct, I verified even with another calculator, you can play with it here.
http://www.firstrays.com/fertcalc.htm

but back to my original question, if I wanted to use a formula as a simple all in 1 trace nutrient formula to save me the trouble of buying each trace element individually can you recommend anything? ie: a dry, all in 1 premixed trace nutrient formula?

thx!

edit, something like this?
Plantex CSM+B


http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/plantex-csmb.html

source
http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=inven&EditU=2&Regit=5

I am not saying this company is better than others or offer better prices than other just that they are well respected by small commercial growers. If you email them a guranteed analysis of the micro nutrient formulation they will mix it for $27 per gallon. The last time I inquired they were preparing the solution at a 450X concentration. It can be supplied at a much, much higher concentration. You would need to contact them as to the concentrate they now supply. Realize this however; for a 100X concentrate a typical mj hydro total weight for all micro nutes is just a bit shy of 3/4 of an ounce. Not including the cost of the molybdenum which is only about 0.001 ounces, the most expensive trace element is manganese at $2 per ounce retail. So for a 100X concentrate were talking a material cost of about $2, plus, the jug, label and labor. All the cost are the same regardless of the concentrate etc the salts. So for $27 I would demand at least a 300X concentrate. To assure that give them a formula three times stronger then required. IE for mj specific the standard analysis should be, Iron 0.10%, manganese, boron, and zinc, should be 0.05%, copper should be 0.01% and molybdenum should be 0.0009%. This is for a 100X, for a 300X you would ask for levels three times those listed above or specificaly state you want a minimum of a 300X concentrate. Consider their cost are less than 1/3 retail for the ingrediants. They can afford to be generous with the concentration. Do not custom order a micro mix that contains calcium, magnesium or sulfur!!!!

http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicS...id=347&zenid=7c8ea447c5f97d79042fe51914472f92

fatman7574 said:

I am not saying this company is better than others or offer better prices than other just that they are well respected by small commercial growers. If you email them a guranteed analysis of the micro nutrient formulation they will mix it for $27 per gallon. The last time I inquired they were preparing the solution at a 450X concentration. It can be supplied at a much, much higher concentration. You would need to contact them as to the concentrate they now supply. Realize this however; for a 100X concentrate a typical mj hydro total weight for all micro nutes is just a bit shy of 3/4 of an ounce. Not including the cost of the molybdenum which is only about 0.001 ounces, the most expensive trace element is manganese at $2 per ounce retail. So for a 100X concentrate were talking a material cost of about $2, plus, the jug, label and labor. All the cost are the same regardless of the concentrate etc the salts. So for $27 I would demand at least a 300X concentrate. To assure that give them a formula three times stronger then required. IE for mj specific the standard analysis should be, Iron 0.10%, manganese, boron, and zinc, should be 0.05%, copper should be 0.01% and molybdenum should be 0.0009%. This is for a 100X, for a 300X you would ask for levels three times those listed above or specificaly state you want a minimum of a 300X concentrate. Consider their cost are less than 1/3 retail for the ingrediants. They can afford to be generous with the concentration. Do not custom order a micro mix that contains calcium, magnesium or sulfur!!!!

http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicS...id=347&zenid=7c8ea447c5f97d79042fe51914472f92

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They ask you to specify plant type...should you include type of strain? LOL. Just kidding, I guess all they need is the formula and a simple tomato plant would suffice.

At least they do not specifically say some absurdity like do not assk qusetions orseek cosultation services for the growing of illegal substances. There are comapanies that do that andten uturn arounfd and design formulations specifically for growing mj but sell it through major supplliers as if that keeps their hands clean. For an example Suntec NZ has Dr. Morgan a PhD (a horticulturalist) as their chief advisor on all their numerous marketing help sites for legal house plant growers and small scale commercial green house growers. They supply consultations all over the world to anyone that will pay their fees. They will formualate a nutrient mix for anyone for anything, and have always done so. They sell a software program for nutrient formulation thats specificically includes mj specific a mj nutrient formulations, but the print on their site they will not answer question or provides services for growing illegal substances. Their mj specific nutrients are even sold by Botanicare. Go figure.

Fatman, thank you so much for this thread. After a failed harvest, I was very very lost as to where I should go next. I stumbled onto this thread through another poster on another MJ site. The poster was raving on and on about the reverse Lucas formula he learned from a fatman. I search and found this thread and your other "methodical..." thread, then spent whole the night reading from the first page to the end. I have 12 whole pages of notes by the time I typed this. You are truly a master of your arts.

I have a couple of burning questions:

1. What do you think of Superbud/Phosphoload/Plant growth inhibitors everyone was raving about? They run $100 to $200 a liter! I know people who bought it(phosphoload) and all I hear about is their record harvests.

2. What do you think of Bud Blood? It's a tiny jug of 0-39-25 powder with Potassium sulphate, potassium phosphate, and magnesium phosphate as its "derivations". None of the ingredients were used in your formulas. If it is effective, is there a way to emulate it with your ingredients?

There are many uninformed unreliable growers saying many things in growing forums. Phosphorus is the least up taken major nutrient by Maj. It is up taken at about 1/4 the rate of nitrogen. Its uptake increases during budding but so do the rate of nitrogen and phosphorus. The ratios stay about the same so as long as the EC is adequate there is no benefit to raising the ratio of phosphorus to that of Potassium or Nitrogen. There is no gain to increasing potassium as the ratio does not change. The only possible advantage to increased amount of phosphorus is in that it is used up fairly quickly as a buffer in a recirculating reservoir. That means it remains in the reservoir but is not in a form where the plants roots can utilize it. This is usually taken care of by pH adjustments with phosphoric acid and through nutrient top offs. However if you have a constant problem with a high pH then additional phosphorus helps.

So it is not because plants need more phosphorus or potassium as in all the Phosphoload or Superbud type preparations, the plants do not need increased ratios of phosphorus and potassium. It is simple that the recirculating reservoir is a poor method of providing balance nutrients on a long term as there are daily buffering actions going on that cause imbalances and nutrient lock outs. Frequent reservoir changes and frequent nutrient additions to the reservoir to maintain the EC eliminate any need of these supplements. Without buffering problems there is no gain to adding an increased ratio of phosphorus. then look at the fact that phosphorus uptakes during budding is at the most 20% of nitrogen uptake. That means if the nutrient formula your using has phosphorus at over 25% of the nitrogen present then the manufacturer has already added extra phosphorus due to anticipated needs for buffering. Potassium ratios during budding remain about the same. The amount increases but not the ratio. The phosphorus numbers need only be approx 10% higher than the nitrogen.

Realize though that nitrogen up take is nearly always higher during budding then during veg growth but most manufacturers have been slow to adjust for this. I have been running mj tissue samples for over 15 years showing this higher nitrogen up take during budding. AN has been running tissue samples for at least 8 years that show this high nitrogen up take, but few listen. Go figure.

I know of NO PLANT GROWTH INHIBITORS I would recommend anyone use on mj, with the possible exception off growth stimulator that causes increased side branching. This would help with mj plants that go through a too large stretch in the first few weeks of budding. It is a spray on (foliar application) chemical that is used twice a couple weeks a part during early budding. There are many good preparations that aid in root development.

http://www.super-grow.biz/BenzylAminopurine.jsp

Bud Blood is as described above only beneficial to offset the phosphorus used as buffers. The use of the particular salts they choose is really just a marketing scam used so as to say they are better or use better quality chemicals and to hide what they are really supplying. Typically chemical nutrients manufacturers and myself use mono potassium phosphate to provide all or nearly all phosphorus and potassium and a very small amount of ammonium nitrogen. There is no gain to the Budblood 's use of potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate instead, and potassium carbonate and magnesium phosphate.. They did in making such choices add a small amount of magnesium and sulfur. However those are usually just added through the use of magnesium sulfate. Basically it is just a marketing scam. But that is what AN is best known for, scams. Once the chemicals are added to the reservoir they disassociate and become the same chemicals. If you look at the guaranteed analysis the mixture provides phosphoric acid and soluble potassium. Basically they simply added both pH up and pH down at the same time. IE just ingredients to replace those They just attempt to hide that by using chemical salts that are seldom ever used in nutrient formulations. They do that with most of their new products. Nothing new just the same old stuff but hidden behind new names that few recognize.

fatman,

do you regularly use benzylaminopurine?

fatman7574 said:

Phosphorus is the least up taken major nutrient by Maj. It is up taken at about 1/4 the rate of nitrogen. Its uptake increases during budding but so do the rate of nitrogen and phosphorus. The ratios stay about the same so as long as the EC is adequate there is no benefit to raising the ratio of phosphorus to that of Potassium or Nitrogen. There is no gain to increasing potassium as the ratio does not change. The only possible advantage to increased amount of phosphorus is in that it is used up fairly quickly as a buffer in a recirculating reservoir.

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So using something like 3-1-2 all the way through makes sense? I use phosphoric acid and only add back water till my EC is correct.

Up until now I have been using 1-3-2 for flowering.

Thanks for the nutrient recipe thread. I hope it does get stickied.

As a side note, what is in Cannazym, cannaBoost? I have never used them and don't know if there is a need.

I will make the coco and soil recipe (cns17?) you give me next week.

I have had to used phostrogen general fertilizer for the last 2 week to get me through. Damn the ph swings a massive being urea based fert. I had to give up on recirc and goto drain to waste.

I also noticed that NPK value can be express in two different ways to have total difference numbers. Depends on which country you are in. I think it's like the Percentage of the ion is one way, and the other is the percentage of the chemical.

vote sticky in nutrients section!

kiwiboy1 said:

As a side note, what is in Cannazym, cannaBoost? I have never used them and don't know if there is a need.
Cannazym claims: "It consists of more than 12 different enzymes and is enriched with vitamins and desert plant extracts." It is an extract of chicken compost from Mexico.. It just so happens it is the same source of the chicken compst extract sold as Hygrozyme. Desert plants are the carbon matter they add to the compost piles as the carbon food source of the bacteria and to provibe bulk to the sompost piles so that the piles are loose enough to allow air to move the throuno bedding so they add desrt brush. IE desert plant extracts. So Cannazyme like hygrozyme is the drainage that comes from rotting piles of chicken manure and desrt weeds and brush. The US EPA now places rigid controls on all compost sold. Mexico does not. US chickem farmers use straw and saw dust as bedding poultry Mexico uses nothing so they must add something and free brush and weeds work.

Cannaboost is as far as I know just a week solution of chemical based potassium amd potash. They do not disclose if it contains anything else such as enzymes, amino acids, humic or fulvic acids etc.

I will make the coco and soil recipe (cns17?) you give me next week.

I have had to used phostrogen general fertilizer for the last 2 week to get me through. Damn the ph swings a massive being urea based fert. I had to give up on recirc and goto drain to waste.

I also noticed that NPK value can be express in two different ways to have total difference numbers. Depends on which country you are in. I think it's like the Percentage of the ion is one way, and the other is the percentage of the chemical.

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K x 1.205 = K2O

K2O x 0.83 = K

P x 2.291 = P2O5

P2O5 x 0.437 = P

Now if the site administrator would just add sub and super text with his upgrades instead of lame cosmetic upgrades and Cheech and Chong nonsence.

Hi Fatman, thanks very much for your info in this thread, and several others! I'm a long-time lurker, but just saw this thread and felt the need to post.

I'm running a HP aero system (~100psi misters, pressure tank, solenoids, custom electronics, backup power, etc) that I've been testing and working the reliability bugs out of with tomatoes. I'm about ready to start using it with my mj clones now, and was wondering if you've got any recommendations for veg and/or flowering specific formulations for this type of system. It's drain to waste, and running from rain water (I'm out in the country, no heavy metals or acid rain here...).

Wow. I am so glad that I did not spend crap loads of money on chicken shit leachate.
Now if I really knewn how much money I have wasted on Cannacoco A & B and PK13/14 over the last 18months, I would probably cry.

I posted formulas to mix your own aero drain to waste nutrients in the new thread I just posted. I am not ware of anyone selling a drain to waste nutrient formulation, especially not a mj specific formulation. It is strictly based upom mj tissue samples as nothing extra is need for buffering in a drain to waste system. With the typical recirculating reservoir nutes sold for mj specific hydro there is always extra phosphorus, calcium, magnesium and often iron. This extra makes up about 1/3 or more of the total ppm. For a quality nutrient delivery system that suck as the EC is run at low levels and most of waht was sprayed would be unusable or tal ken uop in excess or as is typical it would lock out part of the nitrogemn and phosphorus. The drain to waste nutrients exclude all the unneeded extras need for buffering in recirculation reservoirs or soil type medias such as Coco.

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/334895-nutrient-recipes.html

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/334895-nutrient-recipes.html

Hey Fatman, do you think this would make for a good substiute for plastic shims? It is plastic HDPE, and I can get it in Black.
I imagine one would have to irragate every hour with this for a medium.

kiwi,

I just grew a plant in coco using grow more (same as GH), foliage pro, humic acid liquid, and cal mag. I liked it so mch I did my whole next crop that way. The plants are green and healthy with lots of nice forming buds. I am really happy with the results and plan to look into what my actual NPK's should be instead of just mixing equal parts of grow, mic, bloom. Maybe this is best but I havn't actually looked into. I have some in coco and some in coco/perlite (ran out of perlite).

I never add back nutes. I only add back water to maintain my EC. When my res EC is to the point where I can't add enough water to finish my watering I dump it and make more. If I can get cheaper nutes I will just do drain to waste.

I'd like to see what you will be doing with your nutes.

Hey Fatman,

What is up with the Molybdenum? I see the other formulations for *uchMasters and the others do not have it. can I use Sulfur Molybdate? will that increase sulfur too much? it's a small amount.