Magnesium and Potassium Lockout due to too much Calcium?

Crazy4coco

Crazy4coco

Member
The nice thing about hydro is you can hit the reset button . I would suggest a good flush with just 5.8 water and flush lots of water . The following day feed just base nutes , my nutes get ramped up slowly to 750 max . Then start to foliar feed with Epsonsalt as a diagnosis tool . How’s the roots looking ?
 
BongerChonger

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
weedstoner420 said:
This explanation also makes a lot of sense, basically nutrients with similar chemical properties can antagonize each other in the soil...
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Yes! Thank-you very much! That's exactly what I was trying to say. @Rougedawg explained it much better than I.

You'll have to excuse my own naivety in what I was trying to convey. The chart represents what happens at the plant's roots. Not surrounding environments.
 
BongerChonger

BongerChonger

Well-Known Member
weedstoner420 said:
And that's true about the potential tail-chasing it can lead to, since most fertilizers do contain multiple nutrients. I would be hesitant to use it as a strict diagnostic tool, I mostly use it to illustrate the fact that more is not always better. I would bet most "deficiencies" seen by indoor growers are actually a lockout due to overapplication of one or more nutrients.
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Exactly!
And by nature a huge % of outdoor soils are Calcium deficient.
Soil needs to be tested.
Anyways, it's all off topic, I won't derail the thread any further, sorry @Rougedawg.
Thanks for the chat.
 
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danzibar1

Active Member
RookieMuffin said:
Thanks for the input!

Ok that's maybe a good advice... I also think the light is way to close right now... I thought I can compensate by dimming but I think overall it's still too much...

The light is meant for a bigger space (the flower area but right now it's in the veg area) plus it's way closer than the manufacturer recommends... So yeah maybe that accelerates this problem!

Right now I use a lights thats recommended for a 5x5 veg space in a 2.5x2.5 veg space... which might be another problem... couple this with a light thats too close and you might be very right that it's just too much which in turn makes my plant deficient!

Look they have a light for a 5x5 veg area (450W I think) and one for a 3x3 veg area (100W). For the 3x3 veg area 100W light they recommend for seedlings to hang at 25-30 inch and dim to 40-60% (so about 40-60W at 25-30 inch). And for vegging plants hang at 18-24 inch and dim to 60-90% (so about 60-90W at 18-24 inch).

For the light I use right now the 450W which was designed for 5x5 veg area the say for seedlings to hang at 30-32inch and 40-60% (so about 180-270W at 30-32inch) and for vegging plant to hang at 26-28 inch and 60-90% (so about 270-405W at 26-28 inch).

Note that the hang at recommendation for the 450W is a bit higher than the 100W (probably because of the 50W more power).

So if I look at my setup right now it is 12.5% dimmed and at 16 inches... so about 56.25 Watt and JUST 16 inches... If we look at the 100W lamp recommendation they recommend to hang at min 18 inches up to 24... So yeah...

I can even compare it to the space... 450W at 60-90% for a 5x5 veg area is about 10.8-16.2Watt per square feet at 26-28 inch.

And for the 100W at 60-90% for 3x3 its about 6.6-10W per square feet at 18-24 inch.

And my setup is 450W at 12.5% for a 2.5x2.5 veg area which is about 9Watt per square feet... which is almost the highest Watt per square feet but even closer than the recommendations!

So maybe I should change my setup and get more space between the canopy and the light! If you look at this... They are very deficient AND too close to light... which sounds like a disaster to me!

If it helps I don't know but I think it won't damage the plant if I make up some space...
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Same issue for me I’m in a tent so can’t get the light any higher I turned it down until the leaves stood flat and upright etc purpleing left from leaf stem

Few people I’ve spoke to are keeping lights at full height and using one one of those light meters
To dial in as they grow in height

but the led the less tuned in do create some right stress
Sean a lot of people suffering from the leaves losing colour the odd bit of spotting but just fade overall
Most people will then up calmag or some form of nitrogen to compensate creating ec build up and slight tip burn


min these photo you can see the stress on some leaves that are directly under the light but to close then sone that are lower down then

perfectly healthy but not exactly enough direct light

you will be able to see clearly
 

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1212ham

Well-Known Member
RookieMuffin said:
And about the App photone you've mentioned... IDK it's really not that accurate... it read 540ppf for 450W at 100% instead of manufacteurer 2000ppfd... but yeah I still measured and the setup before at 12.5% dimmed the app said 160ppfd highest plant.
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The accuracy of phone app light meters depends on the accuracy of your phones light sensor. Many Androids can't read high enough, mine only goes to about 400 ppfd.

I use a $30 lux meter, it Bluetooth pairs with the PPFD Meter app.
 
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RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
Crazy4coco said:
The nice thing about hydro is you can hit the reset button . I would suggest a good flush with just 5.8 water and flush lots of water . The following day feed just base nutes , my nutes get ramped up slowly to 750 max . Then start to foliar feed with Epsonsalt as a diagnosis tool . How’s the roots looking ?
Click to expand...
Thanks I've already changed the reservoir and went back to only using base nutrients! Today the EC was slightly lower so I've raised EC slightly.

The roots look good... They are reddish/brown. But not due to root rot or something... They are reddish/brown because of the red nutrient solution! Not slimy or something so they are good! With my nutrient solution they always get brown the older they become. The new ones are perfectly white. And again... They are not slimy or smelly. So no root rot.

BongerChonger said:
Exactly!
And by nature a huge % of outdoor soils are Calcium deficient.
Soil needs to be tested.
Anyways, it's all off topic, I won't derail the thread any further, sorry @Rougedawg.
Thanks for the chat.
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I don't think it was off topic! It was nice to read! Thank you!

danzibar1 said:
Same issue for me I’m in a tent so can’t get the light any higher I turned it down until the leaves stood flat and upright etc purpleing left from leaf stem

Few people I’ve spoke to are keeping lights at full height and using one one of those light meters
To dial in as they grow in height

but the led the less tuned in do create some right stress
Sean a lot of people suffering from the leaves losing colour the odd bit of spotting but just fade overall
Most people will then up calmag or some form of nitrogen to compensate creating ec build up and slight tip burn


min these photo you can see the stress on some leaves that are directly under the light but to close then sone that are lower down then

perfectly healthy but not exactly enough direct light

you will be able to see clearly
Click to expand...
Yeah that's what my plants looked like too (but a lot more stressed!)

The purpleing on the stems can go away? I thought they may stay that way...

1212ham said:
The accuracy of phone app light meters depends on the accuracy of your phones light sensor. Many Androids can't read high enough, mine only goes to about 400 ppfd.

I use a $30 lux meter, it Bluetooth pairs with the PPFD Meter app.
Click to expand...
That makes sense with the phone light sensors!

I've used a lux meter too but based on the lux meter I was in good range... For seeds I used 5,000 to 7,000 lux... and for the vegging plants I used 15,000 lux... But they were still light stressed (I think)

It's not that long since I changed the light strength and height but I think it's already better... at least I can't see those "deficiencies" to get worse... New grow looks ok too but I will see in a week or so if nothing gets worse and it's over or not! (I hope it is)
 
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1212ham

Well-Known Member
RookieMuffin said:
Thanks I've already changed the reservoir and went back to only using base nutrients! Today the EC was slightly lower so I've raised EC slightly.

The roots look good... They are reddish/brown. But not due to root rot or something... They are reddish/brown because of the red nutrient solution! Not slimy or something so they are good! With my nutrient solution they always get brown the older they become. The new ones are perfectly white. And again... They are not slimy or smelly. So no root rot.


I don't think it was off topic! It was nice to read! Thank you!


Yeah that's what my plants looked like too (but a lot more stressed!)

The purpleing on the stems can go away? I thought they may stay that way...


That makes sense with the phone light sensors!

I've used a lux meter too but based on the lux meter I was in good range... For seeds I used 5,000 to 7,000 lux... and for the vegging plants I used 15,000 lux... But they were still light stressed (I think)

It's not that long since I changed the light strength and height but I think it's already better... at least I can't see those "deficiencies" to get worse... New grow looks ok too but I will see in a week or so if nothing gets worse and it's over or not! (I hope it is)
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Here's the UNI-T lux meter I'm using. It link's to phones with Bluetooth and does PAR maps etc. He says 98% accuracy but I'd like to see it verified.

 
E

ec121

Well-Known Member
RookieMuffin said:
Thank you I tried to make it as detailed as possible so it may be easier to diagnose. Thanks that you took the time to look a bit through it! Not everybody reads a wall of text lol.

You are the second one who thinks it may be light stress so some hours ago I've changed my setup completely. Smaller light (the big light was meant for the big flower area anyways so yeah I wanted to change the light when switching to flower to the big area anyways!) also more space between the canopy and the lights. I've also dimmed the new light down and use less wattage right now than before with the bigger light.

Right now I follow the manufacturer recommendation for seedlings just to let them come down from the 2 month light stress... What do you guys think? Is it bad to dim the light too much or in this case it is good to let them calm down and increase light intensity to veg recommendation in a couple of days when plant calmed down a little?

Right now a 100W light dimmed at 40% and 28-39 inch (70-99 cm) away from canopy (Smallest plant is 39 (99cm) inch away and biggest plant is 28 inch (70cm) away).

Do you think it's too far away and dimmed too much?

Before I've used the 450w lamp dimmed at 12.5% and 16 inch away from canopy.

Manufacturer recommends for the 100W lamp for seedlings to hang at 25-30 inch and dim to 40-60% (so about 40-60W at 25-30 inch). And for vegging plants hang at 18-24 inch and dim to 60-90% (so about 60-90W at 18-24 inch).

So I'm basically at a very might seedling recommendation... What do you think is it too low or is it good so the plans can recover better from the stress?

And about the App photone you've mentioned... IDK it's really not that accurate... it read 540ppf for 450W at 100% instead of manufacteurer 2000ppfd... but yeah I still measured and the setup before at 12.5% dimmed the app said 160ppfd highest plant.
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I think it's fine where you're running it with the 100W - could have pushed it to the manufacturer recommendations, but no worries in giving it a few days of low light. How they looking now? Got any new pics?
 
R

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
ec121 said:
I think it's fine where you're running it with the 100W - could have pushed it to the manufacturer recommendations, but no worries in giving it a few days of low light. How they looking now? Got any new pics?
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Yeah I've changed the light situation about 1 week ago. Right now I did not increase the light intensity it's still low light condition (based on the manufacturer recommendation they are still on a very mild seedling recommendation).

They are eating not very much. EC is down to 0.8 ... I have to lower it every day since they say it's still too high so I'll see how low I have to go. Anyway that might be due to the low light condition so yeah...

I'm thinking about increasing the power of the light slowly to the manufacturer recommendation... What do you think?

I think they are doing great (way better than before!).

I don't see any increase in the "deficiencies"... They are way more dark green than before... And they are growing good (maybe even a little bit slow due to low light condition BUT the new growth looks healthy compared to a week ago where the new growth showed signs of problems!). Right now the already damaged leaves are still damaged BUT the new growth looks good to me...

Here is a comparison. About 1 week ago on the left side and today on the right side! What do you think? For me it looks good and as you said it looks like it was a light problem and not a feeding problem... The lower damaged growth is still there but it's not visible because the newer healthy growth is above it! So yeah for me it looks like they feel better! But when you zoom in very close they developed some brown spots on the edges on some leaves... idk... don't know if the brown spots still spread or if it's "over" by now... maybe it was still due to the light stress and it's over by now... have to check it in some days if it spreads or not. (i don't think so right now). When I check the older damaged leaves they didn't get worse. It stopped completely (as far as I can tell).

 

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ec121

Well-Known Member
RookieMuffin said:
They are eating not very much. EC is down to 0.8 ... I have to lower it every day since they say it's still too high so I'll see how low I have to go. Anyway that might be due to the low light condition so yeah...

I'm thinking about increasing the power of the light slowly to the manufacturer recommendation... What do you think?
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Yeah, look better. In most cases you're not going to have a reversal on the affected leaves.

Yeah, I would increase power to the recommendation of the 100W light. I would also add back in the calmag since you're using distilled water. You can use calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate instead, but bottled calmag has the two in a balanced ratio so it's already done, but it's usually best to keep nutrient lines together (I think you're using GH for base and Canna for calmag and Canna has more nitrogen than Calimagic). Basically, I would just go back to the feeding schedule you used on your prior run under that light and tweak as needed from there.
 
amneziaHaze

amneziaHaze

Well-Known Member
RookieMuffin said:
Thank you very much. I have MgSO4 already but will take a look at Ca(NO3)2. Maybe I should get it in case I need it!

Do you know how much EC the Mg adds and how much the Ca? Based on your 0.53g/litre Ca and half Mg?
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That i dont know. i allways mix the main nute with them.but i have 2 diaries here with daily updates if that helps.. i think first grow was with a 700 conversion but its sonewhere feep inside that i mentioned it
 
R

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
ec121 said:
Yeah, look better. In most cases you're not going to have a reversal on the affected leaves.

Yeah, I would increase power to the recommendation of the 100W light. I would also add back in the calmag since you're using distilled water. You can use calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate instead, but bottled calmag has the two in a balanced ratio so it's already done, but it's usually best to keep nutrient lines together (I think you're using GH for base and Canna for calmag and Canna has more nitrogen than Calimagic). Basically, I would just go back to the feeding schedule you used on your prior run under that light and tweak as needed from there.
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I think the damaged leaves won't come back to normal too but it looks way better now than before so yeah I think it's going uphill now.

Ok I will increase the light power over the next few days and see how it's going!

I'm not sure on how much EC Cal/Mag to add right now so maybe I will first apply it thru foliar feeding until I know the right EC for the base nutrients (have to lower it daily maybe due to not enough light went from 1.1 down to 0.85 now...)

Yeah it's a good idea to use just one nutrient line and not mix different lines together... Maybe I should buy some of the GH Calimagic to be on the safe side...
 
R

RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
amneziaHaze said:
That i dont know. i allways mix the main nute with them.but i have 2 diaries here with daily updates if that helps.. i think first grow was with a 700 conversion but its sonewhere feep inside that i mentioned it
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I think it will help. Better than nothing thanks! Will take a look soon!
 
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RookieMuffin

Well-Known Member
ec121 said:
Gotta be lookin' good now, eh?
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ec121 said:
RIP op's plants?
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Hi dude! At first they got better and better but then I had to put them in another grow area because one of the plants was stunt from day 30 or so on so she was very small compared to the other plant. The other plant grew above her and took all the space and light so I've decided to split them up and put them in different grow areas so the small plant can get light and grow again.

Shortly after putting the big plant in the other grow area she showed signs of deficiencies again but the light was not that close or not that much power used...

Long story short: I have upped the nutrient dosage a lot (instead of just supplementing whats deficiencient) and they grow healthy again.

People always tell me to use less EC (for example just 1.0 EC) but when I do that I get deficient plants. Now I'm at EC 1.7 and they grow healthy again. I've calculated the amount of each nutrient in my solution and It's now closer to what books and so on recommend.

Before while using 1.0 EC I was at (values in ppm and not all nutrients in the solution are listed just a bunch):

N 58
P 49
K 88
Mg 68
Ca 69

And now I'm at EC 1.7 and the ppm values of the nutrients are about:

N 96
P 82
K 147
Mg 114
Ca 115

Now they grow way better (I think) and they are not deficient anymore. Soon I will feed even a little bit more because I increase the light power now since I'm still running at 20% and I want to flip them soon.

The small plant gets more and more nutrients too maybe she will grow healthy soon. If not I will dump her and start the flowering for the big plant! Since she has her own place and gets light she grew too but also a little bit deficient (AND I'm at a little bit less power than light manufacteurer recommendations and still growing deficient so I think it's also a nutrient problem but not just one single nutrient but overall not enough EC that's why I'm not just using EC 1.0 anymore... look at the numbers above. My calculated ppms based on the lable of my nutrient bottles... npk and so on was too low and ca and mg too so yeah I think it's a overall nutrient problem now)

Big plant now:
big_plant_234165.JPG

Small plant now:
small_plant_32581.jpg
 
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