Mark Blyth, the economist who's making sense

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ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
65% of the Democratic party electorate is "the establishment"? Why don't we call it more accurately "a large majority". A major proportion of which are black, brown voters? Also women? You said they are resisting change. What are you really saying here?
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The Democrats have FUCKING LOST.

Parse it any way you want to make yourself feel better.

They ignored the Progressive wing and then lost to the least popular winning Presidential candidate in modern history.

And they're in the minority EVERYWHERE else. Oregon is in the minority.

It's time for fresh thinking and I'm not hearing any from you.

Or the hypocrite.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
LOL I have never seen you criticize a racist and where are all the berntards counter protesting KKK rallies. You sure love sticking your foot in your mouth.
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The KKK rallies have lots of counter protesters. You have zero evidence to back the notion that none of them are progressives.

Show me where I support racists. Your negative poo flinging doesn't qualify.

You aren't for anything.

Hypocrite.
 
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abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Berniebros: "Give us bernie or we'll give you Trump"

Antifa: *on the streets blocking racist gatherings*

BLM: *Interrupting Bernie's speech for a bunch of ypipo* "stop killing us"

Berniebros: "You guys are hypocrites who don't know what is in your interests"
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
I know you'd love nothing more than to discredit me with the usual "racist" smear that you like to trot out. Instead of countering my arguments (which you have failed miserably at) you try to label me. It's thinly veiled.

I'm pointing out a fact. To say repeatedly that everybody else is unable to decide how to vote in their own self interest diminishes everybody. Including black, brown people and women, so, yeah sexist, racist, white male privilege drips from your statement. I am not able to penetrate your resolve on this, I agree. I don't agree the failing is on my part.

What is grandiose about pointing out facts? You have yet to explain where my premise falls short. Someone living at or near the poverty line (for example) would indeed benefit from the policies that Bernie campaigned on. I have said several times that they may have had other reasons for voting the way they did, which is their decision to make, but that does not mean that they didn't vote against their own financial interests. Please punch holes in this. I've been waiting days for someone to...

Everybody votes in their own best interest. Always. They are the ones who decide what's important to them. You put emphasis on financial concerns. Obviously others don't. It's grandiose to put yourself above everybody else unless you actually are. I respect your accomplishments but not to the point where I'd say you should be making decisions for everybody else.

That's what you would like to make this about. My question to you was straight forward. Why did you vote for Bernie despite his overt racism and sexism? You present yourself as a someone who is very concerned with racism and sexism. You paint Bernie voters as racists and sexists, and post numerous examples of how Bernie was tone-def to these issues, and was going to do nothing to advance them...and yet you voted for him. That doesn't make any sense. If a candidate does not stand for something that I am passionate about, I will not vote for him/her. So, you're either admitting to being a giant hypocrite, or you are admitting to not doing your homework and being an uniformed voter. Or, you really don't give much of shit about these issues and just use them to flog other people with when your arguments fall short.

I don't think Saint Bernard is racist or sexist. I think you are. I don't know about anybody else either. I'm pointing out that going forward, one group that is endorsed by Sandernistas (snicker) on this forum, Justice Democrats, continues to show the same ambivalence that Bernie's campaign had towards issues affecting African Americans, women and Hispanics.

No I don't. Why can't a politician fight for both social and economic equality? Take a look at the thread that pad started about Jim Keady running for congress in NJ. He represents everything that I'm looking for in a politician. I believe that a lot of Democrats (including Hillary) have paid lip service to minorities, but have done very little policy wise to help them. It's a strategy to get votes, and nothing more.

I asked, because I didn't know. I know now, thanks.
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Bold text is my reply
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Everyone who falls through an open manhole perceived the error of their safe pathway incorrectly.

Why is it so hard for you to see the difference between perfect knowledge and being suckered in by hype?

The vast majority of Republican voters are voting against their own self interest in terms of taxes, income distribution and healthcare. Your assertion that the same couldn't possibly be happening on the Democratic side is laughably incorrect and just shows how partisan your thinking is.
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So you are saying that a vote for Hillary was like falling through an open manhole.

But you aren't saying that people who voted for Hillary weren't able to decide how to vote in their own best interest. They just "perceived" it wrong.

This doesn't quite make sense.

What makes sense to me is it's up to the candidate to convince people they are the one who best represents their interests. And that voters decide who represents their best interests.

What I hear you say is everybody else got it wrong. Isn't that what you are saying?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
Your quote:

"the same ambivalence that Bernie's campaign had towards issues affecting African Americans, women and Hispanics."

Why did you vote for him then? Are you just pretending to be concerned about issues impacting women and minorities?
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Clearly Bernie only managed to reach out to ypipo. At least @Fogdog doesn't claim certain racial demographics are incapable of knowing what is in their interests.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
I know you'd love nothing more than to discredit me with the usual "racist" smear that you like to trot out. Instead of countering my arguments (which you have failed miserably at) you try to label me. It's thinly veiled.



What is grandiose about pointing out facts? You have yet to explain where my premise falls short. Someone living at or near the poverty line (for example) would indeed benefit from the policies that Bernie campaigned on. I have said several times that they may have had other reasons for voting the way they did, which is their decision to make, but that does not mean that they didn't vote against their own financial interests. Please punch holes in this. I've been waiting days for someone to...



That's what you would like to make this about. My question to you was straight forward. Why did you vote for Bernie despite his overt racism and sexism? You present yourself as a someone who is very concerned with racism and sexism. You paint Bernie voters as racists and sexists, and post numerous examples of how Bernie was tone-def to these issues, and was going to do nothing to advance them...and yet you voted for him. That doesn't make any sense. If a candidate does not stand for something that I am passionate about, I will not vote for him/her. So, you're either admitting to being a giant hypocrite, or you are admitting to not doing your homework and being an uniformed voter. Or, you really don't give much of shit about these issues and just use them to flog other people with when your arguments fall short.



No I don't. Why can't a politician fight for both social and economic equality? Take a look at the thread that pad started about Jim Keady running for congress in NJ. He represents everything that I'm looking for in a politician. I believe that a lot of Democrats (including Hillary) have paid lip service to minorities, but have done very little policy wise to help them. It's a strategy to get votes, and nothing more.
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:clap:
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
@st0wandgrow 's RACIST RANT regarding why black people rejected Bernard:
st0wandgrow said:
...if I were to guess I'd say it's a variety of things. A lot of older black voters supported her because of Bill. After all, he was the "first black president". She did particularity well in the south with black votes, so I would say that some of that boiled down to religion. They might have had an issue with Bernie being a Jew. The dnc was trying to push the narrative that Bernie was an atheist, so some may have heard/believed that. I also believe that Bernies support for gays, and gay marriage hurt him in the black community. While Clinton was busy signing the defense of marriage act, and don't ask don't tell, Bernie was voting against those initiatives and standing up for gays before it was popular. The black community (I'm guessing largely due to religious beliefs) is very opposed to gay marriage and gay equality. Yes, they are capable of being prejudiced too.
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ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
So you are saying that a vote for Hillary was like falling through an open manhole.

But you aren't saying that people who voted for Hillary weren't able to decide how to vote in their own best interest. They just "perceived" it wrong.

This doesn't quite make sense.

What makes sense to me is it's up to the candidate to convince people they are the one who best represents their interests. And that voters decide who represents their best interests.

What I hear you say is everybody else got it wrong. Isn't that what you are saying?
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I don't say it, the polls do; people who want better opportunities, more prosperity and less wealth inequality voted for Trump or Sanders.

The Clinton campaign failed to sell them on her strategy to bring these things to them, so she lost.

I think you'll agree that Clinton would have done a better job on those issues than Trump, but Clinton lost anyway.

You draw your own conclusions, I've drawn mine.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
I don't say it, the polls do; people who want better opportunities, more prosperity and less wealth inequality voted for Trump or Sanders.

The Clinton campaign failed to sell them on her strategy to bring these things to them, so she lost.

I think you'll agree that Clinton would have done a better job on those issues than Trump, but Clinton lost anyway.

You draw your own conclusions, I've drawn mine.
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You bring your perspective into the correctness of choosing Trump. Of course from your perspective, you are right. From Pie's perspective did she cast the wrong vote? From her perspective, I'm sure if you asked, she would say she did.

I don't know why I keep falling into the trap of defending Clinton. I'd rather change the dialogue to what's next.
 
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