Massacre at Newtown, the (real) roots of mass murder

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
While reading Charles Krauthammer's incredible book "Things that Matter" I came across one of his chapters that articulates quite simply what's wrong with this country regarding mass killings and what promotes them. Was going to photocopy the 2.5 pages and paste them until doing a search, finding the article. http://paxonbothhouses.blogspot.com/2012/12/charles-krauthammer-roots-of-mass-murder.html

As usual, this intellectual (and FOX news contributor) just flat nails the dynamics. Take about 3 minutes and read this if interested....it's fascinating. (emphasis's mine)

****************************************************************************************

December 20, 2012

Every mass shooting has three elements: the killer, the weapon and the cultural climate. As soon as the shooting stops, partisans immediately pick their preferred root cause with corresponding pet panacea. Names are hurled, scapegoats paraded, prejudices vented. The argument goes nowhere.

Let’s be serious:


(1) The Weapon

Within hours of last week’s Newtown, Conn., massacre, the focus was the weapon and the demand was for new gun laws. Several prominent pro-gun Democrats remorsefully professed new openness to gun control. Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) is introducing a new assault weapons ban. And the president emphasized guns and ammo above all else in announcing the creation of a new task force.

I have no problem in principle with gun control. Congress enacted (and I supported) an assault weapons ban in 1994. The problem was: It didn’t work. (So concluded a University of Pennsylvania study commissioned by the Justice Department.) The reason is simple. Unless you are prepared to confiscate all existing firearms, disarm the citizenry and repeal the Second Amendment, it’s almost impossible to craft a law that will be effective.
Feinstein’s law, for example, would exempt 900 weapons. And that’s the least of the loopholes. Even the guns that are banned can be made legal with simple, minor modifications.

Most fatal, however, is the grandfathering of existing weapons and magazines. That’s one of the reasons the ’94 law failed. At the time, there were 1.5 million assault weapons in circulation and 25 million large-capacity (i.e., more than 10 bullets) magazines. A reservoir that immense can take 100 years to draw down.

(2) The Killer
Monsters shall always be with us, but in earlier days they did not roam free. As a psychiatrist in Massachusetts in the 1970s, I committed people — often right out of the emergency room — as a danger to themselves or to others. I never did so lightly, but I labored under none of the crushing bureaucratic and legal constraints that make involuntary commitment infinitely more difficult today.

Why do you think we have so many homeless? Destitution? Poverty has declined since the 1950s. The majority of those sleeping on grates are mentally ill. In the name of civil liberties, we let them die with their rights on.

A tiny percentage of the mentally ill become mass killers. Just about everyone around Tucson shooter Jared Loughner sensed he was mentally ill and dangerous. But in effect, he had to kill before he could be put away — and (forcibly) treated.

Random mass killings were three times more common in the 2000s than in the 1980s, when gun laws were actually weaker. Yet a 2011 University of California at Berkeley study found that states with strong civil commitment laws have about a one-third lower homicide rate.

(3) The Culture
We live in an entertainment culture soaked in graphic, often sadistic, violence. Older folks find themselves stunned by what a desensitized youth finds routine, often amusing. It’s not just movies. Young men sit for hours pulling video-game triggers, mowing down human beings en masse without pain or consequence. And we profess shock when a small cadre of unstable, deeply deranged, dangerously isolated young men go out and enact the over learned narrative.

If we’re serious about curtailing future Columbines and Newtowns, everything — guns, commitment, culture — must be on the table. It’s not hard for President Obama to call out the NRA. But will he call out the ACLU? And will he call out his Hollywood friends?

The irony is that over the last 30 years, the U.S. homicide rate has declined by 50 percent. Gun murders as well. We’re living not through an epidemic of gun violence but through a historic decline.

Except for these unfathomable mass murders. But these are infinitely more difficult to prevent. While law deters the rational, it has far less effect on the psychotic. The best we can do is to try to detain them, disarm them and discourage “entertainment” that can intensify already murderous impulses.

But there’s a cost. Gun control impinges upon the Second Amendment; involuntary commitment impinges upon the liberty clause of the Fifth Amendment; curbing “entertainment” violence impinges upon First Amendment free speech.

That’s a lot of impingement, a lot of amendments. But there’s no free lunch. Increasing public safety almost always means restricting liberties.

We made that trade after 9/11. We make it every time the Transportation Security Administration invades your body at an airport. How much are we prepared to trade away after Newtown?

The Washington Post, December 20, 2012
 

vostok

Well-Known Member
As many look in on the Yankee way of doing things...the rest of the world just goes wow! "how many more lives are lost thru this gun shit, how many more kids must die, before this stops, but the yankees just like to kill each other ...no longer a joke, even boring as a school kid told me!!!
 

yktind

Well-Known Member
As many look in on the Yankee way of doing things...the rest of the world just goes wow! "how many more lives are lost thru this gun shit, how many more kids must die, before this stops, but the yankees just like to kill each other ...no longer a joke, even boring as a school kid told me!!!
Let's make heroin and meth and cocaine illegal then... Oh wait.

Making laws doesn't help the innocent upstanding citizens. It helps the criminals that are already not following the laws anyway. As if saying something was illegal would just stop all of this nonsense and we will all live happy? FYI it is illegal to murder people.

You don't like the constitution that's fine stay where you are. These amendments have meaning to the American people.

Here is a fun graph. Maybe we should look at outlawing cars and tobacco as well.

***Edit*** not a legitimate source for graph
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
He missed out completely on the fact most of these guys end up being on drugs known to induce psychotic episodes, which up until recently, were not commonly available or prescribed (ties into the increased incidence of these events).
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
Let's make heroin and meth and cocaine illegal then... Oh wait.

Making laws doesn't help the innocent upstanding citizens. It helps the criminals that are already not following the laws anyway. As if saying something was illegal would just stop all of this nonsense and we will all live happy? FYI it is illegal to murder people.

You don't like the constitution that's fine stay where you are. These amendments have meaning to the American people.

Here is a fun graph. Maybe we should look at outlawing cars and tobacco as well.


The truth shall set you free.

Uh, wait, there are those among us who are impervious to facts, and cannot digest the truth regardless.

Blame the guns and not the flawed human beings.
Pathetic and truly sad.
 

NorthofEngland

Well-Known Member
Let's make heroin and meth and cocaine illegal then... Oh wait.

Making laws doesn't help the innocent upstanding citizens. It helps the criminals that are already not following the laws anyway. As if saying something was illegal would just stop all of this nonsense and we will all live happy? FYI it is illegal to murder people.

You don't like the constitution that's fine stay where you are. These amendments have meaning to the American people.
The Constitution is a set of rules.
Like the 18th Amendment (prohibition of alcohol)
or the 21st (repeal of the 18th)
the Constitution can be changed.

The Right to Bare Arms was the creation of a time that was politically and technologically very different.

WHEN GUNS ARE PERMITTED TO FLOOD COMMUNITIES
THERE IS NO WAY OF CONTROLLING HOW THEY ARE USED.

INNOCENT MEN. WOMEN and CHILDREN WILL BE PHYSICALLY CRIPPLED, SEVERELY BRAIN DAMAGED and EVEN KILLED
BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE REFUSE TO GIVE UP THE RIGHT TO OWN DEADLY WEAPONS.

And every argument that supports these rights are little more than sophistry.

A 21st Century Civilised Society is supposed to be run on laws.
And these laws are enforced by professionals that society trains, arms and employs at great expense.
The idea that any person can collect an assortment of deadly firearms - so as to be able to defend themselves
is a throwback to a frontier country, predominantly rural and separated from protective forces
by great distances, in a time before telecommunications and transport infrastructure made help no more than a phonecall
and 5 minute car journey away.

I often hear how only criminals will have guns if guns are made criminal....
but in every nation with less firearm ownership
there are far fewer firearm violence.

I find it sad and infuriating that grown men still refuse to see the reality of the situation,
they still refuse to give up their right to own guns,
when every year there are multiple firearm killing sprees.

In cinema's, malls and, worst of all, schools.
WHAT KIND OF A PERSON IS WILLING TO ACCEPT THE REGULAR MASS MURDER OF CHILDREN
AND NOT TRY TO CHANGE THINGS???
HAVE YOU BEEN RAISED ON JOHN WAYNE and CLINT EASTWOOD TO SUCH AN EXTENT
THAT YOU CANNOT IMAGINE A LIFE WITHOUT A SHOOTOUT FANTASY???

What must happen for a man to say:
"I am willing to accept the inevitable mass killing of schoolkids
(which have been fairly regular occurrences over the past few decades)
because I like my guns too much to give them up.....

But I'll use ideas about liberty and the constitution to justify myself
(because the reality of a manchild fantasizing about having a shoot out
probably wouldn't win the argument).

GUNS
For insecure cowards who refuse to grow up.
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
You ignore the fact that the guns are still around, they're just in the hands of the government.

Of course, no big deal. Governments never hurt people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Also, you live in fantasy land. The world isn't perfect. It never will be. People do bad things. Always have and always will. Governments especially do bad things, always have and always will (only a few hundred million murdered last century).

Of course I don't want to see children killed needlessly. However I also don't want to see huge swaths of people (for whatever reason - politics, belief, race) mowed down by government soldiers either.

By the way, wanna know what was actually more likely the cause? The drugs these people were taking. Literally almost all of these shooters have been on psychotropic prescribed medication known to cause psychotic breaks and/or were coming off said drugs (which almost universally is a dangerous situation especially since they were usually cold turkey scenarios). These shootings were not near as common until modern psychiatric pharmacology entered the mix.

If you propose to get rid of all guns, I'm gonna suggest that your proposal is impossible and will never happen. Especially with 3d printers now.

And given that the police are not obligated to protect you (even if you're being stabbed by a serial killer while a police with a gun watches) in any way shape or form in the United States, what's a reasonable alternative? Kung fu? Dogs? Samurai Swords?

Gun control, for pie in the sky folks that don't give a lot of thought to their positions and/or wannabe tyrants.
 

NorthofEngland

Well-Known Member
The truth shall set you free.

Uh, wait, there are those among us who are impervious to facts, and cannot digest the truth regardless.

Blame the guns and not the flawed human beings.
Pathetic and truly sad.
The flawed human beings are turned from pathetic individuals
to Gods with the power of life and death
by the simple addition of a firearm.

There will always be flawed individuals.
Allowing them opportunities to obtain tools that are designed with the sole purpose of taking life
is the perfect storm.

Thinking that an entire population can be made sane and calm enough for everyone to own guns with no incidence of gun violence
that's truly sad and pathetic.

Guns are OK
People are OK....
but they are terrible when they're mixed.

So we need to choose.
Guns or people???
 

yktind

Well-Known Member
If you smoke weed you support terrorism. <---- That is what your argument sounds like.
"If you don't agree with no guns then you hate children" <-- This is b/s

How long would it take the police to get a situation (with or without guns)? People still have access to weapons. And what is stopping someone from driving their car into recess?

Also, the second amendment was written to protect our selves from tyranny (AKA King of England at the time). We protect ourselves from the GOV just as much from each other.
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
The flawed human beings are turned from pathetic individuals
to Gods with the power of life and death
by the simple addition of a firearm.
Or a plane, train or automobile, or knife, or explosives, or chemicals, or drugs, or a lot of things.

There will always be flawed individuals.
Allowing them opportunities to obtain tools that are designed with the sole purpose of taking life
is the perfect storm.
You mean like the sociopaths that run your government? Because they are sociopaths. Killers run the world, always have and always will. Best give only them the guns.

Thinking that an entire population can be made sane and calm enough for everyone to own guns with no incidence of gun violence
that's truly sad and pathetic.
Everyone in Switzerland has automatic weapons. Everyone. Yet somehow they manage.

Guns are OK
People are OK....
but they are terrible when they're mixed.
People aren't that great. People are easily led around by sociopaths and evil bastards. There is a lot of psychological study that demonstrates as much as well. Most people will do anything if the fear of punishment is great enough. That's why you see wholesale massacres occur. Not because the people responsible necessarily all want to be associated, but because they are fearful and will just go along with the herd mentality. Which is why it's so God Damn Dangerous to give a monopoly on weaponry to only one relatively small group.

So we need to choose.
Guns or people???
Both thanks.
 

DutchKillsRambo

Well-Known Member
Let's make heroin and meth and cocaine illegal then... Oh wait.

Making laws doesn't help the innocent upstanding citizens. It helps the criminals that are already not following the laws anyway. As if saying something was illegal would just stop all of this nonsense and we will all live happy? FYI it is illegal to murder people.

You don't like the constitution that's fine stay where you are. These amendments have meaning to the American people.

Here is a fun graph. Maybe we should look at outlawing cars and tobacco as well.



Source for that graph? Because besides the grammatical errors, the last 2 columns are outright lies. 17k total homicides, of those 11k are firearm related. Not 28k total homicides. The lack of a cited date makes it even more dubious. Not to mention heart disease surpassed smoking related deaths a few years ago, for both men and women. You know, obesity. The real death of America.

Edit: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
 

yktind

Well-Known Member
Source for that graph? Because besides the grammatical errors, the last 2 columns are outright lies. 17k total homicides, of those 11k are firearm related. Not 28k total homicides. The lack of a cited date makes it even more dubious. Not to mention heart disease surpassed smoking related deaths a few years ago, for both men and women. You know, obesity. The real death of America.

Edit: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
You missed the point.
 

Balzac89

Undercover Mod
Let's make heroin and meth and cocaine illegal then... Oh wait.

Making laws doesn't help the innocent upstanding citizens. It helps the criminals that are already not following the laws anyway. As if saying something was illegal would just stop all of this nonsense and we will all live happy? FYI it is illegal to murder people.

You don't like the constitution that's fine stay where you are. These amendments have meaning to the American people.

Here is a fun graph. Maybe we should look at outlawing cars and tobacco as well.


I can't trust a graph if the person who made it couldn't even spell tobacco right
 

yktind

Well-Known Member
I can't trust a graph if the person who made it couldn't even spell tobacco right
Lol, Okay graph deleted.

Anyway the point being that Guns are not the number one killer in America today.

I'll look for a legitimate source. Feel free to post a real graph if you have one handy.

No Graph but I did find the leading causes (They didn't narrow down tobacco vs. guns though):
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm


Number of deaths for leading causes of death


  • Heart disease: 597,689
  • Cancer: 574,743
  • Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
  • Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
  • Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
  • Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
  • Diabetes: 69,071
  • Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
  • Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
  • Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
http://soundmoneysa.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/10-Biggest-Killers.png

there's the source of the graph.

"sound money SA: challenging the statist quo"

oooooooh, edgy as fuck!

seems to be a site for racist gun nuts with conspiracy theories to mill over while clinging to their guns and bibles and antipathy towards those who are different.

idiots like yktind, who can't tell the difference between capitalism and communism, are simply intent on proving obama right on that statement of fact.
 

yktind

Well-Known Member
http://soundmoneysa.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/10-Biggest-Killers.png

there's the source of the graph.

"sound money SA: challenging the statist quo"

oooooooh, edgy as fuck!

seems to be a site for racist gun nuts with conspiracy theories to mill over while clinging to their guns and bibles and antipathy towards those who are different.

idiots like yktind, who can't tell the difference between capitalism and communism, are simply intent on proving obama right on that statement of fact.
I am not afraid to admit ignorance, Buck. I took the graph down and put a nice little note saying that it was not a legitimate source.

I did a Google search and posted the first graph I saw without checking the source. The fact still remains that guns are not the biggest threat to our civilization.

Next up on Bucks insults... You sir are a racist.
 

DutchKillsRambo

Well-Known Member
ytkind, I think what you're trying to get at is Risk Assessment. Something all humans are notoriously bad at. Gun violence is nowhere near the leading cause of death, and I don't think anyone is arguing that. But stuffing your face into a slow, obesity-related death isn't as scary as being shot to death. Nevermind the odds of dying in a shooting spree are on par with dying from a lightning strike.

How to change all that? Unlikely. Guns are scary for people that don't deal with them. Sometimes even then. For instance, I was raised around guns, both hunting and skeet/target-shooting for fun. My sister was raised the same way. I own several and she doesn't even want her son to play with squirt guns.

Shrug. I just don't see the situation really getting any better. Too many hotheads on both sides. But hey, maybe they'll at least stop banning things based on how they look instead of how they function. I'm talking about you NYS "SAFE" Act. Worst piece of legislation to pass in a while IMO.
 
Top