Migro Aray Confusion

Barristan Whitebeard

Barristan Whitebeard

Well-Known Member
I've been looking into the new light by Migro a little bit. It's got a sleek design and is certainly attention grabbing. PPFD numbers at 6" are impressive. It would be nice to see additional PPFD maps at varying heights. Shane Torpey also recently posted on Instagram that Migro will soon be releasing a UVB fixture as well. It seems possible that he has changed his opinion on the effectiveness of UVB diodes in growing applications.

Hey @diyled , I saw you congratulate Shane on his new light fixtures on Instagram. Do you intend to carry them in your shop if possible?

The Aray lights are available with a choice of three different
diode options. Either Samsung LM301B diodes or LM301B and Osram 660nm deep red diodes. The other option is LumiLED diodes. Looking into this option is what led to my confusion. I read the following on Migro's website:

Screenshot_20200705-093520.png

This is how Shane answered when asked of the difference in efficiency between the LM301B and LumiLEDs diodes.

As we know the Lumatek Zeus 600w comes in two models. I am not presently able to find a diode count for either model on Lumateks website. According to DIYLED UK's website, the Zeus 600w has 1,968 total diodes with a system efficacy of 2.3 μmol/joule and the Zeus 600w Pro has 3,708 total diodes with a system efficacy of 2.7 μmol/joule . As we know the Zeus Pro reaches this efficacy level because of its high diode count and use of Osram reds (Oslon SSL or Oslon Square I've not heard it said). I've seen some conflicting information, but according to Lumatek the Zeus uses Osram and Lumileds Philips Diodes and the Zeus Pro uses LUMLED and Osram diodes. Hey @end_of_the_tunnel I know you've looked some into these LUMLED diodes. Any thoughts on this? You said Lumateks test documents suggest the LUMLED LEDs are also known as Dongguan LEDSTAR brand 2835 leds. Do you know if those documents are still on Lumateks website?

We have Shane from Migro saying he chose to use LumiLEDs, the same diodes found on the Zeus Pro as an option for his new Aray lights. Lumatek states that the Zeus Pro uses LUMLED diodes I know it's just a difference of a couple letters, but it is interesting.

What does everyone think? Did Shane mispeak and his lights are actually using LUMLED diodes? If so, how many diodes is he incorporating into his Aray lights to reach the stated system efficacy of 2.7 (LM301B or LumiLED) -2.8 (LM301B and Osram reds) μmol/joule? Or is it possible that Lumatek has misstated which diodes are being used for the Zeus Pro?

Thank you for bearing with me, it's often hard for me to be as concise as I would like.
 
Humple

Humple

Well-Known Member
Barristan Whitebeard said:
I've been looking into the new light by Migro a little bit. It's got a sleek design and is certainly attention grabbing. PPFD numbers at 6" are impressive. It would be nice to see additional PPFD maps at varying heights. Shane Torpey also recently posted on Instagram that Migro will soon be releasing a UVB fixture as well. It seems possible that he has changed his opinion on the effectiveness of UVB diodes in growing applications.

Hey @diyled , I saw you congratulate Shane on his new light fixtures on Instagram. Do you intend to carry them in your shop if possible?

The Aray lights are available with a choice of three different
diode options. Either Samsung LM301B diodes or LM301B and Osram 660nm deep red diodes. The other option is LumiLED diodes. Looking into this option is what led to my confusion. I read the following on Migro's website:

View attachment 4615229

This is how Shane answered when asked of the difference in efficiency between the LM301B and LumiLEDs diodes.

As we know the Lumatek Zeus 600w comes in two models. I am not presently able to find a diode count for either model on Lumateks website. According to DIYLED UK's website, the Zeus 600w has 1,968 total diodes with a system efficacy of 2.3 μmol/joule and the Zeus 600w Pro has 3,708 total diodes with a system efficacy of 2.7 μmol/joule . As we know the Zeus Pro reaches this efficacy level because of its high diode count and use of Osram reds (Oslon SSL or Oslon Square I've not heard it said). I've seen some conflicting information, but according to Lumatek the Zeus uses Osram and Lumileds Philips Diodes and the Zeus Pro uses LUMLED and Osram diodes. Hey @end_of_the_tunnel I know you've looked some into these LUMLED diodes. Any thoughts on this? You said Lumateks test documents suggest the LUMLED LEDs are also known as Dongguan LEDSTAR brand 2835 leds. Do you know if those documents are still on Lumateks website?

We have Shane from Migro saying he chose to use LumiLEDs, the same diodes found on the Zeus Pro as an option for his new Aray lights. Lumatek states that the Zeus Pro uses LUMLED diodes I know it's just a difference of a couple letters, but it is interesting.

What does everyone think? Did Shane mispeak and his lights are actually using LUMLED diodes? If so, how many diodes is he incorporating into his Aray lights to reach the stated system efficacy of 2.7 (LM301B or LumiLED) -2.8 (LM301B and Osram reds) μmol/joule? Or is it possible that Lumatek has misstated which diodes are being used for the Zeus Pro?

Thank you for bearing with me, it's often hard for me to be as concise as I would like.
Click to expand...
Was it on IG that Shane said the Aray uses the same diodes as the Zeus Pro?
 
welight

welight

Well-Known Member
im calling bullshit, no way the lumiled is identical to LM301B, its a good chip, but has a different footprint to start. if your going to go 2835 then Cree is better than lumileds, so why would you not use the best 2835 going?
 
Barristan Whitebeard

Barristan Whitebeard

Well-Known Member
welight said:
im calling bullshit, no way the lumiled is identical to LM301B, its a good chip, but has a different footprint to start. if your going to go 2835 then Cree is better than lumileds, so why would you not use the best 2835 going?
Click to expand...
I believe the Lumatek Zeus uses Lumileds with a 3030 footprint (same as LM301B).

The Lumatek Zeus Pro uses what they call Lumled diodes with a 2835 footprint.
 
welight

welight

Well-Known Member
Barristan Whitebeard said:
Under Model for the LM301B should that partial product code read SPMWHD32A ( WH for White and D for Dispensing) instead of SPMWHT32A?

Is the LM301B 80CRI 5000K?

Helpful comparison chart though, cheers!
Click to expand...
yes its just a short version but is the WHD part. its an SL bin so whatever CCT/CRI in that flux bin. if you can get LM301B in the SM 40 lumen bin it would be fair to say that bin is king of the hill. The problem with most suppliers they are non specific about flux bins, in fact I see a devolving of detailed bin info by all suppliers, its not good enough to just say your using LM301B, because here is a big difference in bins
big difference in Lumens,PPF, umoles/j etc, so ask the supplier what his flux bin is
samlm301bpct.jpg
sam301bpct1.jpg
Cheers
 
E

end_of_the_tunnel

Well-Known Member
welight said:
im calling bullshit, no way the lumiled is identical to LM301B, its a good chip, but has a different footprint to start. if your going to go 2835 then Cree is better than lumileds, so why would you not use the best 2835 going?
Click to expand...
There are some very nice Crees in 2835 format. Being an insider can you tell us the difference in technology? Why is thermal resistance lower in the better performing offerings?

welight said:
yes its just a short version but is the WHD part. its an SL bin so whatever CCT/CRI in that flux bin. if you can get LM301B in the SM 40 lumen bin it would be fair to say that bin is king of the hill. The problem with most suppliers they are non specific about flux bins, in fact I see a devolving of detailed bin info by all suppliers, its not good enough to just say your using LM301B, because here is a big difference in bins
big difference in Lumens,PPF, umoles/j etc, so ask the supplier what his flux bin is
View attachment 4616682
View attachment 4616683
Cheers
Click to expand...
Devolving is a nice term.
 
M

mannitu77

Active Member
Hello guys, sorry for torturing that dead body, but i saw this thread and instantly registered. Theres some "fresher" Confusion. I am/was planing to buy an Aray 3. As some of you might know, the Aray-series has been overworked. They still have very high efficiency, the Aray 3 has 2.29 usable PPFD and about 2.7PPE fixtureefficiency. The smaller Aray 2 is even more efficient, 2.4 usable PPFD, thats highendlevel like really expensive, big fixtures have.

So i looked at the Aray 3...a Livud driver, 816 LM301B diodes, 289eu. No brainer, very good deal. Thats almost as much diodes as 3 samsung QB288 quantum Boards. Even if you get them from a fair dealer, you will pay about 240-250eu for 2 Quantum Boards+heatsinks, 240watt driver etc ready to go. And that would only be 576 diodes...but then suddenly i saw "LM281B" in the specs on the website. Instantly i was like-must be typing error, not possible..not even the LM281B+, but the LM281B. We all know how dirtcheap they are, you can buy these boards very cheap on Ali. Doesnt make them a bad diode, if you use a lot of them, you can still build an efficient lamp. Maxsisun for example uses this strategy.

However, these highend efficiency results Shane gets, not gonna happen with LM281B. Was my thought. He even said in the new Aray Live show "301B", i can clearly remember, he got a question from a viewer, why it isnt 301H and Shane replied, cost to performance is not wort it, the 301H is just a tiny notch better. So i wrote a few comments under videos to clarify and today, to my very big surprise, he answered and said its indeed LM281B.

on the website, it also still says LM281B. Allthough in one case its written like "LM3281"...and a few more mistakes there, total umol/sec for the Aray2 is also wrong. So i dont know what to make of it. Unfortunately, i dont have a specsheet for the LM281B and theres also nothing in the Samsung documentation. You just find some values for lumens per diode, but not even a proper curce, where you can see how much lumen/watt at what power/current. and nothing about umol. I can access some data for LM281B+ and LM301s, theres a shop where you can buy all kinds of LED boards and stripes and for each they have a documentation, for example 2,79 umol/J at 0,4A, 2,68 umol/J at 0.5A etc. So i know exactly what 301 delivers, but they only have 1 single Lm281B+ LED-Strip-Modul and nothing with the LM281B.

If somebody knows where to get that LM281B data..i would appriciate it. Got some LM281B cheap panels here as well...seems they are gold and i should rethink my buy XD

Anybody knows what to make of that? I still hope he confused that all and its LM301. Otherwise i dont know what to make of that,

Wish you a nice evening.


edit: if i could just find a closeshot of the LED_panels..i could see if its square or just rectangle. im thinking..250Watts, mabye 230 Boardpower...makes about 280mw and close to 100ma per diode....2,7PPE means 2.85-2,9 Led-Modul efficiency...doesnt work out for me. No matter what bin.


edit 2: now i just looked on Amazon, there its stated as LM281+ with 864 diodes...besides the foto where its 816. Man whoever is responsible for layout...well, hasnt reached his full potential yet.
man this is wild..maybe he means LM281+ pro? because i think they almost match up but you almost never see them. Not easy to get infos, it took me 3 weeks and several postings to get one answer.
 
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mannitu77

Active Member
just wanted to add some infos, so you can check for yourself im not getting everything wrong...here in the Video, just skip to 24:45 for him stating its LM301...and then a screenshot of his answer:



right now im feeling like they actually use LM281Bs and he misspoke in the video. If he reaches 2.3-2.4 usable PPFD..pretty much top of the charts results...with a bunch of Lm281B...all credits to him. hes not even using ridicolousd amounts of diodes, just a little over 3 per watt. If thats true, why does anyone even bother paying for LM301B o H? Seems like these diodes are pretty much a marketing gag then.
 

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HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
mannitu77 said:
just wanted to add some infos, so you can check for yourself im not getting everything wrong...here in the Video, just skip to 24:45 for him stating its LM301...and then a screenshot of his answer:



right now im feeling like they actually use LM281Bs and he misspoke in the video. If he reaches 2.3-2.4 usable PPFD..pretty much top of the charts results...with a bunch of Lm281B...all credits to him. hes not even using ridicolousd amounts of diodes, just a little over 3 per watt. If thats true, why does anyone even bother paying for LM301B o H? Seems like these diodes are pretty much a marketing gag then.
Click to expand...
Pretty easy to tell.
301 is a 3030...3mm x 3mm
281B+ is a 2835....2.8mm x 3.5mm

Talking $0.015 for the 2835 B+ vs $0.065 for the 301. MAybe get a VL group 2835 B+ for $0.039.
301 is a flip chip design meant to be turned on and off without issue and can be ran harder and keep its performance. Flipchip=no bond wires....bond wires = easy failure points and limited cycling limits.
Also the anitsulphurizatins difference is huge. 281b+ has none....281B+Pro has some....301's have full protection to the fullest capabilities.
 
M

mannitu77

Active Member
yes, interesting points. But it doesnt solve the riddle about the efficiency. I was about to order one, but now the price suddenly looks expensive to me. I dont know much about bins. i dont know if theres any first class top-bin where th LM281B are as good as a regular LM301B. Deceided to build my own light instead.
 
H

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
mannitu77 said:
yes, interesting points. But it doesnt solve the riddle about the efficiency. I was about to order one, but now the price suddenly looks expensive to me. I dont know much about bins. i dont know if theres any first class top-bin where th LM281B are as good as a regular LM301B. Deceided to build my own light instead.
Click to expand...
281's have "ranks" and individual data sheets for each vs the 301 that is one part number with 3-4 bins available within.
In the 2835 world they use different die in each rank for most of them.
As where the 301 is all the same die and the bins are the variable range of that die. Basically a bell curve split into 3 sections/bins.

Either way...you pay more for the better bins/ranks.

Basic 281 SJ rank...~$0.015
Top 281 VL rank....~$0.039

Basic 301... $0.062
Top 301 Bin...~$0.07

You can compare them side by side at initial spec right here. 281's wont last long in a horti environment and will begin to degrade/loose output fast.
www.samsung.com

LED Component Calculator | SAMSUNG LED | Samsung LED Global Website

Samsung inspires the world and shapes the future with transformative ideas and technologies. The company is redefining the worlds of TVs, smartphones, wearable devices, tablets, digital appliances, network systems, and memory, system LSI and LED solutions.
www.samsung.com www.samsung.com

Seoul 3030c or cree 2835 G-class would be better options if trying to save a few micro pennies over the 301's.

Also worth noting...huge difference between basic 281B+ and 281B+Pro. Pros would survive better, but still not as robust as the 301. Pros have a antisulfurizations and some
 
welight

welight

Well-Known Member
No Doubt Samsung brand has stamped itself into the grow community, anything with samsung gets a leg up irrespective of it real performance
compare 2835281slm301.jpg
At such a big discount to 301 you can see why people would not want to use it, its up to the punters to deep dive for the truth
compare 2835281prolm301.jpg
98% of all our mid power designs use G Class Cree 2835, the little engine that does
cheers
 
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