Tongbokes
Well-Known Member
Thats what im saying !!
Molasses?
- Thread starter ta2drvn
- Start date
techhead420
Well-Known Member
I only have two words of the benefits of using molasses: BULL SHIT.
No where in botany are you going to find a peer reviewed white paper supporting the claim that plants can take up any sugars or other carbohydrates through their roots. I have gone so far as contacting manufactuers asking if they can back up their claims....they never get back to me. There has been a lot of reserach into how to boost the sugar levels in plants (this can be an issue with fruits such as strawberries) but adding sugar has NEVER been found to work outside of tissue culture and some weak evidence in helping seedlings.
The manufactuers making the beneficial claims have never been able to back them up and people on this and other forums have never been able to back up the claim (beyond anecdotes which should not be confused with evidence).
BS, BS....BS!
No where in botany are you going to find a peer reviewed white paper supporting the claim that plants can take up any sugars or other carbohydrates through their roots. I have gone so far as contacting manufactuers asking if they can back up their claims....they never get back to me. There has been a lot of reserach into how to boost the sugar levels in plants (this can be an issue with fruits such as strawberries) but adding sugar has NEVER been found to work outside of tissue culture and some weak evidence in helping seedlings.
The manufactuers making the beneficial claims have never been able to back them up and people on this and other forums have never been able to back up the claim (beyond anecdotes which should not be confused with evidence).
BS, BS....BS!
ta2drvn
Well-Known Member
Interesting opinion, thanks for posting. This is the first argument AGAINST Molasses in this thread so far. Can you please provide more info as to why you have formed this opinion. I know you feel it is a waste because you have found that sugars/carbs are not able to be uploaded from the plant roots, how did you come to this conclusion? I mean in addition to your reason being that manufactures don't get back to you with there studies, and no white papers.. (have to admit, not sure what you mean
). I'm fairly new and still very open-minded to issues like this and I like to have both sides of the issue so I can come to a conclusion with at least a little info from both pro's and con's. So what you are saying rebuts what people are saying about the PLANT utilizing carbs as 'sir smokesalot' put it:
exactly, its is a carb loader...
...and it provides mag, cal and iron as well as K. it will help the buds to be denser and more resinous too. but even if it didnt bulk up the plant it is still a great supplement. i use blackstrap but may try regular unsulfered next time[/I]
It also mentioned that Molasses provides additional nutrients; wouldn't these be available in a form that the plant could use even if the plant couldn't use the sugars?
Now if the plant doesn't utilize these sugars/carbs/nutrients what you say would make sense, especially if your intent was to feed the plant, but what about this theory:
"For gardeners the sweet syrup can work as a carbohydrate source to feed and stimulate microorganisms. And, because molasses (average NPK 1-0-5) contains potash, sulfur, and many trace minerals, it can serve as a nutritious soil amendment. Molasses is also an excellent chelating agent."
If the above statement is true then wouldn't it still be beneficial for the plant to enrich the soil with extra sugars and carbs, to get the various microorganisms fed and stimulated to help rid your roots of fungi, rot and other root issues? Wouldn't this help to make your roots stronger and better able to upload nutrients that the flowers are needing from your soil? I say this because it seems like when it comes to healthy roots, microorganisms are a popular ingredient to add in with your nutrients. The guy at the Hydro shop showed me an example of this in a bottle he sells for like $129!!!
Don't take this the wrong way, I would be posting a very similar post if the large majority of posts were con and your message was the ONLY one that was pro to using Molasses, you know what I mean?
Besides, sounds like there are a few posters that have done side by side comparo's and it is the reason they like using it... Tell me about your side by side, please.
oh really???
Well-Known Member
yes i was wondering your evidence as well. . .have you tried molasses?
techhead420
Well-Known Member
No, I haven't tried molasses. What I'm saying is in all of the history of botany there has not been so much as one peer reviewed white paper to support the claim that adding molasses or anyother carbo to plants has any positive benefit. People should be asking why this is instead of buying into a bunch of manufactuer's money driven hype (it's called critical thinking). I already use fertilizers that give all of the nutrients I need (I use hydro fertilizers in soil with 1000ppm H2O2).
The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. The claim is that molasses will have a positive benefit to plant growth. This claim has NEVER been backed up in a published controlled study. This claim has NEVER been backed in a peer reviewed white paper.
"Now if the plant doesn't utilize these sugars/carbs/nutrients what you say would make sense, especially if your intent was to feed the plant, but what about this theory:
"For gardeners the sweet syrup can work as a carbohydrate source to feed and stimulate microorganisms. And, because molasses (average NPK 1-0-5) contains potash, sulfur, and many trace minerals, it can serve as a nutritious soil amendment. Molasses is also an excellent chelating agent."
If the above statement is true then wouldn't it still be beneficial for the plant to enrich the soil with extra sugars and carbs, to get the various microorganisms fed and stimulated to help rid your roots of fungi, rot and other root issues? Wouldn't this help to make your roots stronger and better able to upload nutrients that the flowers are needing from your soil? I say this because it seems like when it comes to healthy roots, microorganisms are a popular ingredient to add in with your nutrients. The guy at the Hydro shop showed me an example of this in a bottle he sells for like $129!!!"
It says "can work" not "will work" and is nothing but a money driven speculation and not a "theory". Critical thinking skills people.
The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. The claim is that molasses will have a positive benefit to plant growth. This claim has NEVER been backed up in a published controlled study. This claim has NEVER been backed in a peer reviewed white paper.
"Now if the plant doesn't utilize these sugars/carbs/nutrients what you say would make sense, especially if your intent was to feed the plant, but what about this theory:
"For gardeners the sweet syrup can work as a carbohydrate source to feed and stimulate microorganisms. And, because molasses (average NPK 1-0-5) contains potash, sulfur, and many trace minerals, it can serve as a nutritious soil amendment. Molasses is also an excellent chelating agent."
If the above statement is true then wouldn't it still be beneficial for the plant to enrich the soil with extra sugars and carbs, to get the various microorganisms fed and stimulated to help rid your roots of fungi, rot and other root issues? Wouldn't this help to make your roots stronger and better able to upload nutrients that the flowers are needing from your soil? I say this because it seems like when it comes to healthy roots, microorganisms are a popular ingredient to add in with your nutrients. The guy at the Hydro shop showed me an example of this in a bottle he sells for like $129!!!"
It says "can work" not "will work" and is nothing but a money driven speculation and not a "theory". Critical thinking skills people.
gangjababy
Well-Known Member
don't knock it until you try it buddy! I see an improvement on my plants and will continue to use it as long as I grow.
ta2drvn
Well-Known Member
Well let's see what do you mean by 'critical thinking'...
Critical thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia =Critical thinking consists of mental processes of discernment, analysis and evaluation. It includes possible processes of reflecting upon a tangible or intangible item in order to form a solid judgment that reconciles scientific evidence with common sense
OK so let's see, you keep referencing manufactures claims not being supported. From what I have found Molasses companies are typically selling there product to consumers for consumption NOT for plant nutrients. So how many Molasses companies have a marketing campaign directed at farmers/grower emphasizing the benefits of molasses for their plants?
molasses what can it be used for? - Google Search
Most claims that I have seen are from people posting threads that it has worked for them, that they have noticed a difference or they have found it a CHEAP alternative to Hydro shop nutrients, not companies selling it. So who is making all this so called money off of BS molasses sales for plants?
Hydro Shops? - Haven't see it sold in any garden departments for that matter let alone a Hydro Shop...
Seed Banks? - Haven't see it promoted on many of these....
Growers? - Have a few growers purchased Molasses companies?
Investors? - When was that last big rush on Molasses stock?
Dispensary Owners? - I have not seen Molasses sold there either?
Dealers? - Are they taking there profits and purchasing stock in Molasses?
Grocery Store? - they have always made money off products they sell including Molasses, now I have not seen Grocery Stores promoting this to the MJ community or to growers of any kind.
Molasses Companies? - Seems like a logical choice, but I haven't seen this on there sites? As an additive for cattle, yes, but for plants, no.
Nutrient Companies? - Sure, but they usually add other things in with it, I have not seen a straight Miracle Grow Molasses product yet? or other nutrient product with straight Molasses.
So let's get back to 'critical thinking' for this subject:
- Majority of posters and google searches seems to find more people pro than con to using Molasses....
- One of your cons to this debate is that GREEDY COMPANIES promote this product to enhance their profits margins, but yet you offer no companies that are directly offering JUST MOLASSES as a supplement for growing plants.
- You mention that there is NO PROOF it works, yet you have NEVER TRIED IT? So you have NO evidence to the contrary to offer us that would support your opinion that it does NO GOOD. Wouldn't you think that if you wanted to disprove something or verify your suspicion that it isn't worth an extra $5-10 per grow that you WOULD ACTUALLY TRY IT!!!
I asked for support to your opinion yet you just continue to offer OPINIONS on this, please support your claim as I asked. All I'm looking for is something to support your claims that it doesn't work, I just haven't found anything need help.
PS...
You said:
It says "can work" not "will work" and is nothing but a money driven speculation and not a "theory"/I]
Speculation = Speculation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...Speculation (in a financial context) is the assumption of the risk of loss, in return for the uncertain possibility of a reward...
Seems to be a pretty close definition to what you are talking about, right?
vs.
Theory = Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In science a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. For the scientist, "theory" is not in any way an antonym of "fact"
I would say that what I describe would probably be better thought of as a Theory rather than as a Speculation in this case. At least that is what MY CRITICAL THINKING tells me. My Critical Thinking is starting to tell me YOU are full of BS.... but I do have an open mind about that, just need some proof to the contrary.
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techhead420
Well-Known Member
WTF? Speculation in this context has nothing to do with finances. ROFLMAO. Jesus Christ on a stick, that was just ridiculous.
Speculation:
I never said that manufactuers are selling molasses for plant nutrition, I've claim that they're trying to sell it as a carbo source and that this claim has never been backed up using the scientific method. Period.
Yet another ROFLMAO....you'e asking me to prove a negative. Trying to say prove a negative is an invalid agruement scientifically, philosophically and in a legal context. We learn in first year philosophy classes that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. The claim is that molasses and carbos are beneficial to plants. My claim is that this has never been backed up. If it has been backed up then by all means, give me a link to a peer reviewed white paper.
Maybe you should look a little harder when you claim that grow stores don't sell molasses:
Garden-Ville Molasses-Spray-N-Grow Gardening
Organic Molasses - 20 L :: Australian Soil Additives & Products
You have shown no "theory". You have shown no kind of evidence that is capable of making future predictions.
Please...show me the research that backs up the claim that adding molasses or carbos has been shown to increase the yield of ANY type of plant. Come on people, show that you've got critical thinking skills and just give me one link. Is that so much to ask?
Speculation:
- Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation.
- A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture.
- Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition
I never said that manufactuers are selling molasses for plant nutrition, I've claim that they're trying to sell it as a carbo source and that this claim has never been backed up using the scientific method. Period.
Yet another ROFLMAO....you'e asking me to prove a negative. Trying to say prove a negative is an invalid agruement scientifically, philosophically and in a legal context. We learn in first year philosophy classes that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. The claim is that molasses and carbos are beneficial to plants. My claim is that this has never been backed up. If it has been backed up then by all means, give me a link to a peer reviewed white paper.
Maybe you should look a little harder when you claim that grow stores don't sell molasses:
Garden-Ville Molasses-Spray-N-Grow Gardening
Organic Molasses - 20 L :: Australian Soil Additives & Products
You have shown no "theory". You have shown no kind of evidence that is capable of making future predictions.
Please...show me the research that backs up the claim that adding molasses or carbos has been shown to increase the yield of ANY type of plant. Come on people, show that you've got critical thinking skills and just give me one link. Is that so much to ask?
MrFishy
Well-Known Member
Has anyone come across sulphered molasses? I sure haven't. It seems to me it's all un-sulphered. Why they note that on the containers is beyond me. Perhaps important info from times gone by.
I tried using it on my latest grow and it certainly did no harm at all. Nice, nasty lookin' nugs.
I tried using it on my latest grow and it certainly did no harm at all. Nice, nasty lookin' nugs.
ta2drvn
Well-Known Member
This is why I posted what I did, so that we can debate based on what each other ACTUALLY mean, not OUR INTERPRETATIONS of what we are saying. I use this definition and asked if I was correct, because of your adamant insistence that Molasses Manufactures are the ones promoting these claim's and your comment:
money driven speculation
Based your defined definition, you are correct, I am on my FIRST grow that is why I am asking about this subject. I am not a expert just trying to understand and learn. I understand that plants produce there own carb through PHOTOSYNTHESIS, and I know that plants will upload substances other than water through the roots, stalks and foliage so if carbs can be broken down why not uploaded also? (ie. you cut a stalk set it in water with blue coloring, a foreign substance other than water or mineral, and the buds will become blue) This is where I am also getting THEORY from my statements.
I broke down two basic different ways that people claim Molasses works:
- carb loader
- Soil Enhancer
You mentioned:
No where in botany are you going to find a peer reviewed white paper supporting the claim that plants can take up any sugars or other carbohydrates through their roots.
This would suggest you are disputing the CARB LOADING claim, not Soil Enhancement, or am I wrong? Also that plants DO NOT upload carbs of ANY kind? Is this YOUR ARGUMENT?
Or are you saying that BOTH soil AND roots are unable to utilize carbs?
I have not found anything that roots will upload carbs, so if this is why you don't think it is beneficial I can understand your point. However, if you feel that the soil would not benefit from these carbs/sugars, then I am not sure you could still be correct. It is still logical to feed the microorganisms in your soil and that this can lead to a healthier soil, thus leading to a healthier and richer plant.
YOU made the claim:
I only have two words of the benefits of using molasses: BULL SHIT
This claim goes against the 'norm' for this post, I asked for support to YOUR CLAIM, other than your words explaining how carbs are not uploaded by roots, I have not disputed this.
Molasses (average NPK 1-0-5) contains potash, sulfur, and many trace minerals....
Is this in dispute? Do these come in a form that is detrimental to the plant, neutral or would they be beneficial? Now, answer the same question about the soil.
Looks like another noob mistake, you are correct. kiss-ass
...but the claim seems to imply (at least to my one way focused eyes...LOL) that it aids directly to soil which indirectly benefits the plant.
My theory is that if you can keep your soil healthy and rich in the nutrients your plant thrives on then your roots will be less likely to be unhealthy and there for be able to absorb and upload more nutrients and moisture, allowing the plant a better shot at optimal growth.....
As such, I theorize that adding a nutrient that CAN benefit microorganisms contained within the soil, would tend to aid in maintaining the health of that soil AND the addition of trace minerals CAN promote growth...
http://rcrec-ona.ifas.ufl.edu/mol.pdf <-- page 7 & 8 list the minerals found in Molasses (actually different kinds) pretty sure that a plant can upload:
Copper, Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Potassium, phosphorus
Yes that site is for animal use but still minerals are the same, it was an easy find, why I used it.
OK, I admitted I was wrong..... But I think when it comes to feeding your soil there is evidence that there are beneficial minerals in Molasses and that THESE MINERALS can aid in growth by being available in the soil for the plant to use.
oh really???
Well-Known Member
you're welcome. molasses does benefit the plant. if not from documentation that i can legally site, then from first hand experience that won't hold up in court because i don't have it on white paper or researched officially in a peer review.
specialkayme
Well-Known Member
well, if death penalty and deportation are out of the question .... I'll go with puting you in the stockade.
To answer your question, from what I have read pure sugar cane juice will do little if anything to help. I know I'm probably going to get my ass reamed out for that because I don't have proper sources or expert witnesses, but that's what I remembered reading in previous posts. I don't remember which ones, just the compolation of my memory.
To answer your question, from what I have read pure sugar cane juice will do little if anything to help. I know I'm probably going to get my ass reamed out for that because I don't have proper sources or expert witnesses, but that's what I remembered reading in previous posts. I don't remember which ones, just the compolation of my memory.
techhead420
Well-Known Member
Bottom line, you people have not been able to back up your claims with a peer reviewed white paper that molasses, sugar or carbs have any positive benefit for plants. Yup, molasses has some nutes that can be a benefit for plants but what's bullshit is that NONE of you can back your claim that carbs or sugars can benefit any part of the plant. Until you people can do that then you're just speculating (only a dumbass would assume I was talking financial speculating and I never said these complanies were greedy I said to take claims with a finacial incentive with a grain of salt, those are pretty wise words).
Anecdotes are the resort of the mediocre mind and unfortunately mediocre minds tend to confuse anecdotes with evidence. You people are giving nothing but anaecdotes.
Yet once again, why can't you people back up your claims by providing just one source that empirically demonstrates that molasses, sugars or carbs has any benefit to a plant, leaves or roots? Give the damn link people!
I'm not offereing opinion as some knucklehead has suggested, I'm saying you people are bullshit for making claims that you can not or will not back up with evidence. There's a word for people who make claims that they can not back up: crackpot.
Yet again, you have no theory. Although I do admire your copy and paste skills perhaps you should read the definition of theory that you posted. You have no body of evidence from which you can make a future prediction in a given system. Bullshit.
"OK, I admitted I was wrong..... "....first smart thing you've said now back up what you say.
"Looks like another noob mistake, you are correct
...but the claim seems to imply (at least to my one way focused eyes...LOL) that it aids directly to soil which indirectly benefits the plant."
Look Einstein, these people are making a claim that they are not backing up and they have a financial incentive (I'm still laughing about that "financial speculation" reference. Wow man... just wow) to make this claim. What are they going to do, come out and say we have this great product but there is not a shred of proof to back our claim up.
Anecdotes are the resort of the mediocre mind and unfortunately mediocre minds tend to confuse anecdotes with evidence. You people are giving nothing but anaecdotes.
Yet once again, why can't you people back up your claims by providing just one source that empirically demonstrates that molasses, sugars or carbs has any benefit to a plant, leaves or roots? Give the damn link people!
I'm not offereing opinion as some knucklehead has suggested, I'm saying you people are bullshit for making claims that you can not or will not back up with evidence. There's a word for people who make claims that they can not back up: crackpot.
Yet again, you have no theory. Although I do admire your copy and paste skills perhaps you should read the definition of theory that you posted. You have no body of evidence from which you can make a future prediction in a given system. Bullshit.
"OK, I admitted I was wrong..... "....first smart thing you've said now back up what you say.
"Looks like another noob mistake, you are correct
...but the claim seems to imply (at least to my one way focused eyes...LOL) that it aids directly to soil which indirectly benefits the plant."
Look Einstein, these people are making a claim that they are not backing up and they have a financial incentive (I'm still laughing about that "financial speculation" reference. Wow man... just wow) to make this claim. What are they going to do, come out and say we have this great product but there is not a shred of proof to back our claim up.
specialkayme
Well-Known Member
While I greatly appreciate your opinion, and thank you for your contribution, I think now would be a great time for you to step down from your soap box techhead, and join the rest of the world with their feet on the ground. No one offered a source to back up their claim, which would leave it as a claim, not fact. But I would like to remind you that you have offered no shred of 'peer reviewed white paper' that offers a claim that molasses has NO effect on a plant, or that it has a NEGATIVE effect. Untill you can live up to your own standards, perhaps you should worry less about everyone else.
That being said, please stop calling people 'crackpots', 'bullshit', and 'Einstein'. If you disagree with what they have to say, make your claim and then wait for a rebutal. Demanding evidence from everyone else, and then claiming that their lack of evidence is your evidence against the claim is hardly a good tactic for disproving a claim.
That being said, please stop calling people 'crackpots', 'bullshit', and 'Einstein'. If you disagree with what they have to say, make your claim and then wait for a rebutal. Demanding evidence from everyone else, and then claiming that their lack of evidence is your evidence against the claim is hardly a good tactic for disproving a claim.
drumsinttown
Well-Known Member
I can't imagine wanting to be right like you tech head, considering the amount of friends and vagina that it will probably yeild.....
Is there a way using the scientific method that you can dispute my claim that if you actually behave in real life the way you do in this thread that you will never find someone to talk to you for more than a few minutes
Is there a way using the scientific method that you can dispute my claim that if you actually behave in real life the way you do in this thread that you will never find someone to talk to you for more than a few minutes