MrEDuck's Breeding Journal

I'm currently treating a clone of my Blue Dream (I call her Stella, though the FtM plant is being called Drue) with silver thiosulfate. I saw some brown pistils on Drue this morning after spraying with fresh STS last night. The main purpose of this is to make BD S1s but obviously every female in the grow is going to be pollinated so I'll get some crosses going as well. I have a female Purple AK x JH that's 32 days in so she might have to run a little longer than I would like if I don't get pollen fast, I also have 6 babies that are sexing right now, 2 each of Midas from Rare Dankness and Jack Herer F2s from the private breeder who make the AK x JH cross and Dark Rainbows from a private breeder friend. Thankfully the BD has a super long harvest window so if she needs an extra few weeks I won't be that upset!
This is just copied from my main journal:
Here's Drue being female. I noticed that the STS I was using had developed somewhat so I made fresh and added another layer of tinfoil over the sprayer to keep light out. This morning I saw a few brown pistils so hopefully the fresh STS is working! I keep the room as dark as possible while spraying and do it about 30 mins before lights out so I can put him back in right after lights out so the brief interruption of darkness is kept to a minimum and has the least possible impact on the girls.

But there's still lots of female flowers starting.


Here's a gallery of Drue and one of Stella
http://imgur.com/a/ewJTl Drue
http://imgur.com/a/n5aqW Stella

SUBBED!.. Glad you started a breeding thread, cant wait to see how it goes.

yeah gotta follow this like a lost puppy!

Good to have you guys along, hopefully we start seeing some change in Drue soon!

SUBBED

Welcome to the wonderful world of Internet Popularity. HAHAHA


I'll be bouncing through checkin out the plans in a few... got 20+ threads to scan through

Thanks for the welcome mate! There's not much to go through yet. Hopefully the fresh STS gets me pollen soon!

Looks good I will be following along

Drue has some more brown pistils this morning! I'm going to keep up the daily spraying.

I wanted to explain my motivation for this project a little. I have a debilitating autoimmune condition that pretty much crippled me. The Blue Dream cut has me functioning again. I was able to stop taking a low dose chemo agent used as an immune modifier and have almost stopped taking NSAIDs completely, and this year I've had to be on a single steroid dose pack and a short term script of mild opioids once. When I was out between harvests. I've smoked and grown a lot of pot and never experienced benefits like this. The only strains that can rival her for pain are pure indicas that knock me out or might as well knock me out. I can have a bowl of Stella first thing in the morning and last thing before bed without problems either way. So I feel quite motivated to try to come up with a stable representation of her in seed form by cubing her. I've been reading a lot about breeding of cannabis and other plants recently. Before getting sick and having to stop working I was a chemist and I miss the hell out of research but a breeding project has a lot of similarity so it was a further impetus to get started with this project. So the goal is to cube the strain like how the Bros Grim made C99 from Princess to get a reasonably phenotypically stable version of Blue Dream. I'm going to start with S1 beans and I hope to build a little bonsai SOG setup for doing selections in so I can run 50 seeds at a time to ensure I get good parents for the backcrosses. Later I'd like to start with a few crosses to then back cross to see if some slight changes can be made. I'd like to see what doing the initial cross with C99 or another fast flowering heavily saliva dominant to give a buzz I enjoy more (I like really up smoke) and maybe shave a few days off flowering. I'd also like a really heavy painkilling induce to see if a cubed version that is a better painkiller but still functional could be had.
This plant has given me back my life and I want to share her with the world.
In time I'd also love to try to work some pure sats for indoor growth and shorter flowering time (like what Ace and Cannabiogen have done with a number of landraces) and then make hybrids with those to try to get full sats with good potency, yield, and reasonable flowering times while keeping the quality of the buzz. But that's probably a few years off at this point.
One of the tools I want to use for this is the Thin Layer Chromatography plates for cannabinoid analysis available from http://cannalyticssupply.com/index.html to get a quick idea of what the cannabinoid profile of the individual plant is which I feel will be a valuable data point combined with sampling it. I'm looking for the S1 that most resembles the mother plant in make up and this is the most important category to me. Without the medicinal qualities Stella is a great plant but that's what makes her so amazing.

I am glad the plant has you back in action. I hope your get all you want out of this project.

I havent seen those testers before, really f'n cool! When i get a plant i want, ill probably order up a small kit!

So, just a question of how the generational labels going, you are refering to these as S1's, is that because they are self polinated? and if you crossed two plants from S1s, what are they? F1s or F2s?. Do i just have all these labels confused?

DB

I was just talking about how there's no standards in the world of cannabis "breeding" for labeling generations and such in the "What Are you Running?" thread over in the seed section.
The offspring of two S1s would effectively be F2s. Once you get to F2 you kinda stay there if you're just making random polyhybrid crosses (aka almost all of the seeds on the market) until you put a couple of generations of selective pressure whether through full or half sib crosses or back crosses. The amount of information can be pretty daunting but I'm pretty good at absorbing massive amounts of information in a short time when I put my mind to it. It's even easier when I'm interested in it!

MrEDuck said:

I was just talking about how there's no standards in the world of cannabis "breeding" for labeling generations and such in the "What Are you Running?" thread over in the seed section.
The offspring of two S1s would effectively be F2s. Once you get to F2 you kinda stay there if you're just making random polyhybrid crosses (aka almost all of the seeds on the market) until you put a couple of generations of selective pressure whether through full or half sib crosses or back crosses. The amount of information can be pretty daunting but I'm pretty good at absorbing massive amounts of information in a short time when I put my mind to it. It's even easier when I'm interested in it!

Click to expand...

I will very much enjoy corresponding with you then. My studies have been paused due to external pressures, but I can't wait to get fluent in this.

So these f2s, they follow mendels laws right? In which case 1/4 of all seeds produced should mimic the parent dominate type?

MrEDuck said:

I was just talking about how there's no standards in the world of cannabis "breeding" for labeling generations and such in the "What Are you Running?" thread over in the seed section.
The offspring of two S1s would effectively be F2s. Once you get to F2 you kinda stay there if you're just making random polyhybrid crosses (aka almost all of the seeds on the market) until you put a couple of generations of selective pressure whether through full or half sib crosses or back crosses. The amount of information can be pretty daunting but I'm pretty good at absorbing massive amounts of information in a short time when I put my mind to it. It's even easier when I'm interested in it!

Click to expand...

the offspring of 2 seperate strained S1's would be an F1 not 2. it's the first generation of a cross between 2 strains..

F1 is the best seed to have. in most cases.
Hybrid vigor only seems to apply for that first generation of seeds. These seeds are known as F1 (first generation cross) seeds.

Subsequent generations after the first set of seeds don't show signs of hybrid vigor unless they also are crossed with different strains.
With marijuana plants, the first generation of seeds from a hybrid cross produce plants that have about 25% higher yields than if you produced seeds from two plants of similar strains.
Breeding two different strains of marijuana plants for F1 seeds (in order to get hybrid vigor) is often a more time and space effective way for the hobbyist grower to spend their time as opposed to trying to breed their own strains.
As long as you keep crossing with different strains that have different genetics, you will keep getting F1 hybrid seeds.

I guess i should add if they are the same strain however. and both from the same parent. you would be breeding for S2. second selfed generation.

MrE - you understand that all clearly??

I am working on a collective of information for breeding F1's as well as F5 autoflowering strains.(F5 because 5 generations are required for making your own from an auto x photo cross)

As soon as it is up i will see what i can do about getting it a STICKY so it don't get lost anywhere.

SxIstew said:

the offspring of 2 seperate strained S1's would be an F1 not 2. it's the first generation of a cross between 2 strains..

F1 is the best seed to have. in most cases.
Hybrid vigor only seems to apply for that first generation of seeds. These seeds are known as F1 (first generation cross) seeds.

Subsequent generations after the first set of seeds don't show signs of hybrid vigor unless they also are crossed with different strains.
With marijuana plants, the first generation of seeds from a hybrid cross produce plants that have about 25% higher yields than if you produced seeds from two plants of similar strains.
Breeding two different strains of marijuana plants for F1 seeds (in order to get hybrid vigor) is often a more time and space effective way for the hobbyist grower to spend their time as opposed to trying to breed their own strains.
As long as you keep crossing with different strains that have different genetics, you will keep getting F1 hybrid seeds.

Click to expand...

That is two separate strained, as in two ladies silvered and self pollinated to create 2 s1 strains. Seeds grown, 1 lady silvered and then cross with the other strain to create an f1 right? But what about 1 lady silvered, 2 seeds grown one silvered and crossed with the other plant. Is that still an F1?

EDIT: This was answered right above.

DB

Darth Budder said:

I will very much enjoy corresponding with you then. My studies have been paused due to external pressures, but I can't wait to get fluent in this.

So these f2s, they follow mendels laws right? In which case 1/4 of all seeds produced should mimic the parent dominate type?

Click to expand...

and for your answer sir. i am unsure if MrE have one so i can chime in with my $0.02....

F2 - 25%
F3 - 50%
F4 - 75%
F5 - 100%


In order to achieve this you MUST use selective breeding.
Picking your plants for the traits and qualities you like.
Sounds much easier than it is...

Imagine having 40-50 plants and you only want 2......... try picking those out in a snap second. lol
You MUST grow many plants out when breeding for traits or autoflowering.

in the case of breeding autoflowers
You would cross an auto x photo
results are called
Auto x Photo F1
then pick your best two of a possible 40+. cross them.
Grow out 40 of the seeds.
Find all your autoflowering and scrap the rest.
Breed the auto's together, culling out any weak males or females.
this will only be around 8-10 of 40.
Next follow the exact same as above and repeat till you have what you want.
Cull out ALL non auto plants when breeding for the auto trait.



I hope that is simple enough for even a newbie who starts growing next month to understand. if not yell, scream, i don't care. lol

SxIstew said:

and for your answer sir. i am unsure if MrE have one so i can chime in with my $0.02....

F2 - 25%
F3 - 50%
F4 - 75%
F5 - 100%


In order to achieve this you MUST use selective breeding.
Picking your plants for the traits and qualities you like.
Sounds much easier than it is...

Imagine having 40-50 plants and you only want 2......... try picking those out in a snap second. lol
You MUST grow many plants out when breeding for traits or autoflowering.

in the case of breeding autoflowers
You would cross an auto x photo
results are called
Auto x Photo F1
then pick your best two of a possible 40+. cross them.
Grow out 40 of the seeds.
Find all your autoflowering and scrap the rest.
Breed the auto's together, culling out any weak males or females.
this will only be around 8-10 of 40.
Next follow the exact same as above and repeat till you have what you want.
Cull out ALL non auto plants when breeding for the auto trait.



I hope that is simple enough for even a newbie who starts growing next month to understand. if not yell, scream, i don't care. lol

Click to expand...

Thanks for that!

I know, i have no idea how I am going to achieve anything with as little room as i have, although i guess if i run a 20 solocup sog i could do it in a reasonable amount of time, i just dont know if the plants would be able to show thier genetic potential that small. You think 40 is enough? I know mendel started with 100 of his peas, then grew out i think 200 of those the next year.

MrE, sorry, i seem to be taking up a lot of your thread. Ill back off

DB

Canned Abyss(Breeder who i am using his methods to create my autos next grow)
I will be using a different medium and non hydro.
ebb & flo
400w MH
3'x3' or 4'x2'. I'm assuming from the pictures i have seen of the breed.
40 plants started in 16oz cups of perlite(wash it, it WILL burn your ladies.)
after 3 weeks switch to 20oz.


that's all the space you need and all the lights you need.
you can achieve your own auto strain in about 1-2 years of dedication and patients.
Minimum of 5 generations.


This is only for auto x photo breeding for autoflowering cannabis.

You can breed 2 photo strains together for an F1. but if you want to create your own strain, you must take your time and continue breeding them together.
With fem photo's you will need to pick 1 plant of a bunch that you want to keep. and self. to create an S1 of YOUR strain.
Otherwise it is as he stated before i believe simply strain x strain F1,2,3,4,5. To put your name on it you must self the BEST one.


Wait a little while and watch my creation of Circus Candy. I'll grow 20-30 next grow and pick 1 of them 2 weeks after the flip....
then a local CG here will come pick up the rest to take for his patients needs.
I will not keep them around while i self my selection.

SxIstew said:

the offspring of 2 seperate strained S1's would be an F1 not 2. it's the first generation of a cross between 2 strains..

F1 is the best seed to have. in most cases.
Hybrid vigor only seems to apply for that first generation of seeds. These seeds are known as F1 (first generation cross) seeds.

Subsequent generations after the first set of seeds don't show signs of hybrid vigor unless they also are crossed with different strains.
With marijuana plants, the first generation of seeds from a hybrid cross produce plants that have about 25% higher yields than if you produced seeds from two plants of similar strains.
Breeding two different strains of marijuana plants for F1 seeds (in order to get hybrid vigor) is often a more time and space effective way for the hobbyist grower to spend their time as opposed to trying to breed their own strains.
As long as you keep crossing with different strains that have different genetics, you will keep getting F1 hybrid seeds.

Click to expand...

If the S1s were from plants that were totally unrelated. Once you start having common grand parents you start losing hybrid vigor. With the number of strains that have NL, Skunk or Haze in the background there's really very few unique lines.
Let us assume we have 4 true breeding strains, A, B, C, and D.
We can mix any two and that is an F1 cross, say AxB. We can mix the AxB X C or AxB X CxD to get F1 crosses. But AxB X AxC wouldn't show that. As you get more generations involved the model gets more complicated. Because IBL x unrelated hybrid is an F1 cross inbreeding a parent for breeding is a common strategy. If you look at the seedlings in my main journal that just got flowered you can see the difference between crosses of random outstanding plants and a random outstanding female and a special bred stud. The difference in vigor is impressive.
You can never go to 100% like that and the return diminishes as you increase because it's an exponential decay. Fillial generation infinity would be 100%.
As far as selection I'm planning on using a screen or screens to support 50 single cola plants flowered from rooted clones in 2" RW cubes in a 2'x4' flood and drain setup. I'll probably have to flood frequently but that's ok. I want to light it with an 8 bulb 4ft T5 because it spreads the light more evenly than a single bulb HID in a short vertical space so I get more even performance plant site to plant site. I'll dial the space in with clones of my Blue Dream mom. It'll never be perfect but it should be pretty good. I just need to figure out how to fund it. I wish it was legal so I could just do a kickstarter. Worst case scenario I can run 36 plant's in party cups in my 2x2 flower space. I'd really rather not.

You can never go to 100% like that and the return diminishes as you increase because it's an exponential decay. Fillial generation infinity would be 100%.

Click to expand...

Is that about the F5 thing i mentioned?
if so that is how breeders create their auto's


BUT
they run further than F5 to then dial in the traits they are looking for after the auto is locked in.

Spyder is F9. (the ones that are NOW available are F10 i believe. He JUST sent a shipment in.)
And CA never feminized the strain.

I was thinking inbreeding to match a genotype. My bad.