Mudballs alternate germination method-pre inoculating discussions

It's here that I would like comments and discussion so to keep the actual journal clean and precise for others to get to important questions and answers more quickly. Anything we talk about that becomes pertinent I'll move it to the journal in a section for F.A.Q.
Thanks http://rollitup.org/t/mudballs-alternate-germination-method-pre-inoculating.852235/

Really interesting but I see a potential problem... Could the mudball be too compacted and prevent the seedling from sprouting? Seems like the flimsy premature stem and hypocotyls won't have the same force as a tap root to break through the ball. I hope Im wrong because this pretty cool. I guess we'll know for sure soon enough

yes we will .my thought is it's spongy and soft and would break super easy with fingers so should be fine. not sure if you saw the pic with two with tap roots that broke through? and a 3rd broke this afternoon so tap roots aren't having any problems.

ficklejester said:

Who says this process can be defined as inoculation?

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wow..i'm not sure how to approach this one. You obviously have no agtech background for me to even relate with. Every botanical enthusiast, farmer brown, and agricultural elite knows about this. I hope that people are starting to recognize the methods to my madness and that quite often I post links to something that can back my statements made in posts, preferring collegiate studies over others. So here is some light reading for anyone that doesn't know what inoculation is or may be questioning this as a method that can be defined as inoculation.
http://forages.oregonstate.edu/nfgc/eo/onlineforagecurriculum/instructormaterials/availabletopics/nitrogentfixation/inoculation
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00305.html
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/2429/#b
http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/bnf/Downloads/Training/BNF technology/Inoculation.PDF
I would really appreciate it if you would delete your post in my Grow Journal ficklejester as I've tried to PM you regarding the matter.

bradburry said:

Im no expert but if your on about inoculating with bennies etc right from seed for better germination.........then this is a common practice for some older growers and its actually the best time to do it while the roots are young and most vulnerable ....... Good luck


sorry for replying here but indidnt know how to reply the other way.

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It isn't so much to improve germination. It's simply to have the endo/ecto fungi right there and waiting for the root when it starts.
Further Reading
http://www.zor.zut.edu.pl/Glomeromycota/Life cycle, significance and properties of AM.html
I'm happy to hear you mention the 'old timers'. I couldn't find any info about doing something like this when it comes to marijuana, zero, nada. To me it seemed nobody had ever done it. Where to me it was a 'my god why is nobody doing this?' I looked into small seed coating machines, cost about $2000 used, i monkeyed around with a contraption I made but didn't work worth a shit. Thought about buying some coatings from commercial guys but then this came to mind. I only have doubts about the myco surviving until the roots get to support them. I can link to a study where dormant spores survived and revived to populate after 25yrs under ground. But we know there's only one way to convince someone, seeing is believing so next up is sterilized soil and a late germinating seed ball. If that has nodes when I yank that fkr up then this is undoubtly a successful hypothesis test. I've always used paper towels and it would be hard to change me until one day I had a tap root wormed into the fibers of the towel and snapped when I tried to get it out for planting. Damn that sucked.

Its going to work well this because it does it naturally out doors.

You said .."I only have doubts about the myco surviving until the roots get to support them.".


feed them with carbs until the roots can support them.

that's also why i used the corn syrup in the mix.good call man hope it works

mudballs said:

that's also why i used the corn syrup in the mix.good call man hope it works

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i cant see any reason why....you could try in rockwool or spounge plugs ?....... I seem to remember allready saying that lol

I put my seeds straight into pre fed compost with plenty of bennies allready there and they grow a treat.....in fact most sprout in a few days .

i think the problem will be the density of the "mudball" .......i May be wrong ..lol

mudballs said:

It's here that I would like comments and discussion so to keep the actual journal clean and precise for others to get to important questions and answers more quickly. Anything we talk about that becomes pertinent I'll move it to the journal in a section for F.A.Q.
Thanks http://rollitup.org/t/mudballs-alternate-germination-method-pre-inoculating.852235/

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in that thread you mention checking the roots for nodes, as in the plant is sequestering carbon from the atmosphere and fixing nitrogen into the soil?

keysareme said:

in that thread you mention checking the roots for nodes, as in the plant is sequestering carbon from the atmosphere and fixing nitrogen into the soil?

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that's impossible without a thunder and lightning...or those other nitrogen fixing plants ...i think lol

bradburry said:

I put my seeds straight into pre fed compost with plenty of bennies allready there and they grow a treat.....in fact most sprout in a few days .

i think the problem will be the density of the "mudball" .......i May be wrong ..lol

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it's confirmed to not be a problem. splits perfectly fine and is left right in place in the dirt where you first planted it, still containing the spores too

keysareme said:

in that thread you mention checking the roots for nodes, as in the plant is sequestering carbon from the atmosphere and fixing nitrogen into the soil?

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good question get's a long answer. The nodes will just be proof that a symbiotic colony was established. The farther down the root system I can find nodes the better. Now to further discuss the matter.
The myco are not there to fix nitrogen into the soil. Legumes like clover and soy beans do that on their own and big agro just wants it to do it better, that's why you see 'pre-inoculated' clover seed and the likes. The myco assists nearly any living plant (80% of plant life on earth actually) to use nutrients. So it's just a different way of doing things, to me a far better way. One of the things I'm looking at is if the 1 Tbsp is sufficient or not for a 60 day grow cycle? Does the myco colonize fast enough or is that insufficient amount requiring soil amendments. I don't know but from my research it just might work. We all know how fast fungi can grow. Hope that addressed your question.

mudballs said:

it's confirmed to not be a problem. splits perfectly fine and is left right in place in the dirt where you first planted it, still containing the spores too


good question get's a long answer. The nodes will just be proof that a symbiotic colony was established. The farther down the root system I can find nodes the better. Now to further discuss the matter.
The myco are not there to fix nitrogen into the soil. Legumes like clover and soy beans do that on their own and big agro just wants it to do it better, that's why you see 'pre-inoculated' clover seed and the likes. The myco assists nearly any living plant (80% of plant life on earth actually) to use nutrients. So it's just a different way of doing things, to me a far better way. One of the things I'm looking at is if the 1 Tbsp is sufficient or not for a 60 day grow cycle? Does the myco colonize fast enough or is that insufficient amount requiring soil amendments. I don't know but from my research it just might work. We all know how fast fungi can grow. Hope that addressed your question.

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good info

so we know its going to work ( and in my eyes not fail )............... Does this experiment boil down to a "how much dosage will i need " thread ?

mudballs said:

it's confirmed to not be a problem. splits perfectly fine and is left right in place in the dirt where you first planted it, still containing the spores too


good question get's a long answer. The nodes will just be proof that a symbiotic colony was established. The farther down the root system I can find nodes the better. Now to further discuss the matter.
The myco are not there to fix nitrogen into the soil. Legumes like clover and soy beans do that on their own and big agro just wants it to do it better, that's why you see 'pre-inoculated' clover seed and the likes. The myco assists nearly any living plant (80% of plant life on earth actually) to use nutrients. So it's just a different way of doing things, to me a far better way. One of the things I'm looking at is if the 1 Tbsp is sufficient or not for a 60 day grow cycle? Does the myco colonize fast enough or is that insufficient amount requiring soil amendments. I don't know but from my research it just might work. We all know how fast fungi can grow. Hope that addressed your question.

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Yea, that was great, exactly what I asked. Thank you for helping me to be clear on what you meant.

As for is one 1 Tbsp efficient, the plants I amended the root zones with myco sure loved it, and it was about a tablespoon per plant..about cause I was pretty generous

bradburry said:

good info

so we know its going to work ( and in my eyes not fail )............... Does this experiment boil down to a "how much dosage will i need " thread ?

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not just that because only so much myco can cover a square inch. When you amend a soil you have far less spore per sq. in. than you think and what are the chances of a root hitting a spore? or the right spore? My concept is that all the spores are there and waiting and whatever spore out competes the rest should grow fast enough along with the root system.
NB: If I see no nodes or just one or two near the surface that doesn't necessarily mean add more to the mix but it will generate a few questions for me to look into.

R u thinking of maybe trying to manufacture it as a sellable product?

oh we can all have our dreams can't we.

mudballs said:

oh we can all have our dreams can't we.

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lol its just that your going so deep into measurements etc when you know its going to work ...... Not to sound funny but its alittle over engineered.......just saying...... But ill keep watching seen as though im the local bradliner riu troll and all that .... Good luck

have two late germinations in sterile soil. one of them is a dried ball that was rewetted. took forever to pop. ive had 2 push up through the soil with the ball still wrapped around cotyls but broke off easy enough. i figure i didnt plant it deep enough and keep it wet enough. they were both pretty dry.now the long ass wait. science and botany don't play well with each other.

@Uncle Ben
"That's a legume specific bacteria, not myco. Mychorizzae actually enables a plant to absorb P better. According to studies, it's also useless when applied to pots.


Being a farmer I innoculate with myco before planting perennials IF the soil's been disturbed mechanically. I innoculate legumes such as hairy vetch and yellow sweet clover with their respective bacterial innoculants which will fix atmospheric N via root nodes. I also treat the seeds before sowing with a wetting agent consisting of milk, water, and molasses to help fix the powder and provide a smidgeon of nourishment to the seed. Whether the latter works or not is anybody's guess. Perhaps it's a feel good thing for me.


UB"

i know that's legume specific bact. that's why this journal uses Oregonism for cannabis. aside from our disagreements elsewhere in the forum if you can keep it academic here i'd be happy to discuss it further.