Multichip LED, Remote Phosphor - Guess who it is.

HiloReign said:

Yes and no. Compost needs air to do its thing, but if you leave it open and mix it up fairly often, I don't see why it couldn't work.

An anaerobic compost will reek badly and be far too wet, at which point you know composting has stopped and rotting/decaying occurs. Just lookin' out.




Bokashi is basically utilizing phototrophic bacteria, lactic acid bacteria, and yeast microorganisms to speed up the composting process. It needs to be composted after the Bokashi process is done, also. Process takes around two weeks (before composting).

The up side to this is that you've inoculated your compost pile with those EM and most likely sped up your composting process. Down side? BUY MY BOTTLES BRO!

A lot of these effective microorganisms can be cultivated on your own at home with simple concoctions, not only saving you money but giving you a superior product to anything you can buy. They are superior because when you cultivate them on the property you will use them on, you are using microorganisms that are indigenous to where you are (rather than foreign microorganisms).

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Is there a way to use these cultivated microorganisms in a hydro set up? What would be the extraction process or would the hole thing work differently?

PICOGRAV said:

Is there a way to use these cultivated microorganisms in a hydro set up? What would be the extraction process or would the hole thing work differently?

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I'd say with hydro you are better off using powder microbes and using coconut water for enzymes. Soil methods would clog lines. Teas would cause slime to accumulate on the roots and suffocate the plant.

PICOGRAV said:

Is there a way to use these cultivated microorganisms in a hydro set up? What would be the extraction process or would the hole thing work differently?

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I'd like to correct myself before moving on: Apparently there are studies debunking my "indigenous microorganisms are more effective than foreign ones" claim or so it seems. Unfortunately I don't have time to follow up on that.

Most EM cultures come in a liquid form. Bottled EM cultures can be diluted right into your hydro res. Some homemade batches (although tedious to make your own) can be strained and diluted into your res. I've heard of "tea-bag" hydroponics, perhaps put something together there?

I am under the impression that with sufficient aeration of the hydroponic water and attention to the microbial community, an all organic EM grow could be carried out. Rhizosphere becomes inoculated, warding off "bad" microbes. Any leftover organic matter would be eaten up by the extensive microbial community(actinomycetes and fungi, in addition to the microbes i said were in bokashi), helping to reduce/prevent clogging of pumps etc. With ample nutrient matter suspended in the water and microbes, plant roots can release exudates/receive cation nutrient.

I'd also like to mention that these same microbes are used in parts of the world as "Drain-o" or to clean clogged pipes for those of you who don't know what that is.

I could see it being a pain tending to a microbial community that lives in aerated water. One pump failure could ruin everything. Also, all the micro-activity will surely add heat to your hydro res, something else to look out for. I'm sure I haven't covered everything and am satisfied I was able to explain this much. If anyone requires further knowledge on the subject, I'm sorry, I probably can't be of too much help.

Pico: Pretty sure I've heard about a guy cultivating aerobic microorganisms in his high pressure aero system. I agree with what Hilo said, you just need a crazy amount of oxygen to get the right kind of bacteria. You're sort of walking a fine line between beneficial bacteria and slime. A lot of people just find it easier to use additives like SM-90 to kill everything and then Hygrozyme to breakdown the dead bacteria and make it available to plants as food.

Tags and hyroot: Well the plants got some lime which has Mg and Calcium so I should be okay? I've also got some epsom salts (Mg) and green sand (K and Fe) that I can try.

Bumping Spheda said:

Pico: Pretty sure I've heard about a guy cultivating aerobic microorganisms in his high pressure aero system. I agree with what Hilo said, you just need a crazy amount of oxygen to get the right kind of bacteria. You're sort of walking a fine line between beneficial bacteria and slime. A lot of people just find it easier to use additives like SM-90 to kill everything and then Hygrozyme to breakdown the dead bacteria and make it available to plants as food.

Tags and hyroot: Well the plants got some lime which has Mg and Calcium so I should be okay? I've also got some epsom salts (Mg) and green sand (K and Fe) that I can try.

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Green sand won't do shit. It takes a couple years to break down. Throw in an outdoor garden. Kelp would be better. Thats full of potassium , iron, zinc, calcium, magnanese, amino acids, its a great nutrient accumulator especially for phos. It will definitely increase bud size. I top dress a 3/8 cup of kelp meal per 7 gal at the beginning of flower. That's using an 1/8 cup 3 times. Get kelp meal and soak it for a few days then strain and use that kelp water for hydro. I do 1/4 cup per quart. Then the left over kelp is water soluble now for soil or teas.

Fresh coconuts / water is cheaper than hygrozyme and has far more enzymes too.

Also remember that the more O2 you incorporate, the more food the microbes consume and needs to be increased as well.......its definitely a fine line your playing with, got to babysit your grow

The green sand I bought actually has Kelp extract in it.

The naturally occurring potash used in Green Potash is derived from kelp, and the greensand is added for trace minerals and extra potash.

Nitrogen......................................0%
Phosphorus.................................0%
Potassium..................................15%

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It was pretty cheap off eBay, and actually the bag ripped on their first shipment so they sent me another for free. I've got a big ass bag of the stuff now. It seems mild, but I kinda like that, and slow release potassium in my dirt (which I'll be recycling and amending with compost, most likely) doesn't sound bad, imo. I've thought about kelp and fulvic acid for my teas and assumed pH imbalance.

Btw, my aloe vera juice is organic, but it does have citric acid in it. :/ Bought it in a gallon jug from Wally Martinez. Waiting for lights on to see if that girl lowered her leaves yet.

Hard to say, but I was kind of thinking the lime was why it was showing. Too much Cal in ratio to Mg maybe. Epsom is purer Mg(MgSO4). So if you are thinking a little Mg, then yes.
You obviously don't want more N, but possibly just a well balanced micro nutes feeding could get thing back in order. Kelp and seaweed extracts have tons elements for complete plant health.

Alright. I'll see how they react to last night's feeding and go from there. Possibly sprinkle some green sand on their soil as the kelp, possibly add some epsom salt and azomite to their water. This seems rather similar to what I did last harvest (difference being bat guano (high P), blood meal (N), bone meal (N, P, Ca) and worm castings were in the super soil).

Azomite takes a while to break down is not soluble. Epsom salt will help with mag def. Epsom salt also has sulfur. Foliar spray with kelp too

Yeah, I just made a tea out of some compost, some green sand with the kelp, epsom salt, inoculant powder, worm castings, and maple syrup (I don't have any molasses yet). Within hours there were bubbles up to the lid of the bubble cloner. I placed the cup on top of a 50W and 20W driver which kept the tea really warm. I watered all my plants with it (about half filtered water, half tea) and then foliar sprayed everything at a pretty low dose. I also mixed a small batch of just water and blood meal for my mother because I think she's low on Nitrogen.

Btw, that one girl in flower has brought her leaves back down to normal. Symptoms of over N seem to be off and on for everybody, though. Hopefully the tea can fix this.

I wanna add my $.02 here and hopefully won't step on toes, hijack or whatever and this will add to instead of negate the thread.

In light of the terms "Organic" in the nerd chemistry world,

• organic soils are defined by
  • organic matter content over 35% organic matter >15%occ
  • these soils trend towards acidic [most plausible reason that people chuck pH meters in the world of organics] and
• mineral soils [inorganic, not carbon nutrients]
  • are less than 35% organic matter and
  • 10-12% organic carbon content
  • inorganic soils trend towards alkaline

In theory, your Roots Organic should minimally conform to those standards but the inorganic add-ins may also override organics in cation exchange and raise the pH. [ Like Aluminum]



Bokashi is everthing Hilo stated plus more.....like he said it is anaerobic composting.

I like to think of it as pickling your kitchen waste, essentially buttermilk, yogurt, pickles, kim chee, tofu, methane, biofuels etc, etc. are made chemically in the same way. Different strains of yeasts, different actinomycete profile, but same chemical process.

Aerobic composting generally has an anaerobic stage as well, just before cooling back down to aerobic. Compost also starts from aerobic, but loses oxygen as the pile heats up creating anaerobic conditions for while. [This is another difference in my opinion between aerobic and anaerobic profiels, the faculative organisms[those that can survive both aerobic and anaerobic environments....yeasts, acto's, etc.

Now the cool thing about anaerobic composting is that it uses far less energy than aerobic composition.
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/biology_anaerobic.htm

[SIZE=-1] only about 26 kcal of potential energy per gram of glucose molecules is released compared to 484 to 674 kcal for aerobic decomposition.[/SIZE]

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Bokashi, technically does not have to be composted after it is finished. If done correctly, the organisms have metabolized minerals from the organic matter.

Bokashi and Compost are naturally metabolizing nutrients to inorganic forms that plants can uptake vs. synthetic metabolizing of commercial ferts.

I have been following the thread religiously, I know I don't have many posts, but I am about ready to start using this as my Hempy Mix and then I want to start formulating for my LED's this winter.....

I have spent about 3+ years developing an anaerobic liquid regiment for my gardening.

[Disclaimer] I want to get into aerobic teas/ coconut milk/ aloe vera....I basically end up researching the chemistry involved and just try to mimic with what I can find in my backyard. Weeds,weeds, weeds, they are our friends! big time]

I started with DIY EM from rice cultures in milk [which is essentially old fashioned yogurt making] and have used all kinds of different in noculations to start my own EM's. Recently, I have started, some with:

• butternut squash water
• diy hot pepper / kim chee brine
• homemade pickle brine
• sourdough starter
• buttermilk [continuation]

I have developed an entire regimen that forms being a miticide, pesticide, fungicide[I pray never to use it!] and full complement fertilizers from veg to bloom finish. They are all just soaked in water and sealed, but vented of CH4 methane and hydrogen sulfides; Which is...... if you have ever brewed home made wine [and not spody ody, ok spody included]..... you might know about.

I just took a roster of what was out in the shed.
Ferts

• Nettle [Urtica dioica] over a year old and holding steady [all cycles]
  • LAND KELP [very similar in bio-available nutrients]
• Lemon Balm[mint]/Common Plaintain/Heal All [mint]/Hedge Nettle [mint]
• Japanese Fuchsia [flower]
• Comfrey [Wild Houndstongue, a weed][flower][fattening][makes the darkest thickest syrup in a gatorade bottle over 6 months, anyone has ever seen!]
• Honeysuckle/Yerba Buena [mint]/Wild Ginger [early veg]
• Pot Marigold [fattening]
• Wild Rose fruits

Miticide

• This is experimental but I have been trying to use pectinase in fermenting oxalic acid [spinach, rhubard ,etc] as an effective miticide. I have the literature, just not the expensive lab a toree.
• Feverfew

General pesticides

• habanero/garlic
• Wild ginger
• Cilantro

I should probably start a thread, but I don't often realize the interest in this stuff. I have multiple PDFs and documentation, busting at the fucking seams.

Like I said, hardcore research for the last 3 years and growth results[Outdoors] [Indoors, im not done being a fucking noob yet]

Bumping Spheda said:

Yeah, I just made a tea out of some compost, some green sand with the kelp, epsom salt, inoculant powder, worm castings, and maple syrup (I don't have any molasses yet). Within hours there were bubbles up to the lid of the bubble cloner. I placed the cup on top of a 50W and 20W driver which kept the tea really warm. I watered all my plants with it (about half filtered water, half tea) and then foliar sprayed everything at a pretty low dose. I also mixed a small batch of just water and blood meal for my mother because I think she's low on Nitrogen.

Btw, that one girl in flower has brought her leaves back down to normal. Symptoms of over N seem to be off and on for everybody, though. Hopefully the tea can fix this.

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Sounds like a good deal. Curious to see the after pictures

Abiqua said:

Bokashi, technically does not have to be composted after it is finished. If done correctly, the organisms have metabolized minerals from the organic matter.

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Technically it does not have to and it will decompose shortly (most suggest 2-4 weeks, I've personally seen bokashi completely composted in 9 days). Though, I would assume, most people don't want to be mixing large chunks of organic matter that hadn't been composted yet into their potting mix. Also, there are much nutrients to be had after your bokashi decomposes.

Thank you for opening my eyes to the energy it actually takes to carry out anaerobic processes. It's always interesting to see what people put in their bokashi buckets too.

HiloReign said:

Sounds like a good deal. Curious to see the after pictures



Technically it does not have to and it will decompose shortly (most suggest 2-4 weeks, I've personally seen bokashi completely composted in 9 days). Though, I would assume, most people don't want to be mixing large chunks of organic matter that hadn't been composted yet into their potting mix. Also, there are much nutrients to be had after your bokashi decomposes.

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Yes, I was going to mention this, as you are absolutely correct. I did not mean to call you out specifically.
I remember looking at a grey carrot that was decayed but not moldy and "neutralized" [the bag smelled like pickles] but thought "how are my plants going to use this right away?"

That's why I started using liquid forms [Fermented Plant Extract's] and I combine it with compost and now Vermiculture too... [and liquid only for the Hempy's, lol, hopefully]

And thank you Hilo and the whole thread for opening my eyes on other alternatives and giving Great info!

That's my compost as of now. I'd say 70% is like a week old (mulched scraps from out door garden), the other 30% was dried leaves/trim and other compost materials from a bag that I've been working on. Probably gonna mix this stuff in with the Roots Organic for my next wave. There's quite a bit there.



What the flower tent looks like as of now, before the effects of the tea.



Just about 2 weeks of flower.

Last hijinks.....

I use Dr Dukes Plant Chemical Database [IM me for search tips]
http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/

Oregon Biodynamics: Dynamic accumulators[Plants] of nutrients for composting
http://oregonbd.org/Class/accum.htm

French Gardening: Plants to the Rescue of Plants
http://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346

Very Cool Paper: Edible Flowers-A New promising source of Mineral Elements in Human nutrition.
http://Edible Flowers—A New Promising Source of Mineral Elements in Human Nutrition



As far as Humic Acids, I am of the opinion to try and give your plants as much fulvic acid as they can handle/you can provide and try humic acids[humates, humin] as well, but pH will be the determining factor.

Low pH, water solubility and watering frequency favor fulvic acids.

Two papers that drive that opinion for me:

Organic Matter, Humus, Humate, Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid and Humin: Dr. Robert E. Pettit Texas A&M

Humus forms in terrestrial ecosystems: a framework to biodiversity, Jean-Francois Ponge

HiloReign said:

Sounds like a good deal. Curious to see the after pictures

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I transplanted two clones into a 60-40 mixture of Roots Organic and compost. There's a clone in the ziplock bag and two more in the bubble cloner. The three girls chilling outside will be the second wave in my flower tent. All three were watered with the tea and got the same foliar treatment as the girls in flower.


This is the second biggest plant. It got topped, but it turned out to sorta be a fim? Dunno, but I'm pretty sure it'll have at least two heads.


This one is an attempt at mainlining. Since I'm working with a clone the nodes are a little off, but so far so good. Broader leaves than I'm used to. Could it be the dirt/tea?


Hoping this one gets a growth spurt. One of the original three didn't look good so I tossed it and had to start another for this wave. As soon as it can withstand the fan it's going under the 50W Warm White. I need it to stretch.




Not much has changed with the girls in flower. I'll take pics of them soonish.

Same White Balance setting as the pics I just took in my veg room, RP spotlight only:


RP Spotlight only (except pic 4 >.<), new WB setting. LST'ed the tied up branch. Over N showing on some new leaves still, perhaps it'll take another watering before they fully react, Idk. The LST'ed plant looks super healthy, though. imo.

Looks like we got ourselves a gardener.....