Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
Awesome tips, thanks man. Will be heeding the advice, 'cause I sure don't know what I'm doing.
Multichip LED, Remote Phosphor - Guess who it is.
- Thread starter Bumping Spheda
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heckler73
Well-Known Member
Not bad build quality on that Chinese panel......they even use zip ties!
Now if they could only learn to cut wires and resolder them... But maybe they left them long so people can have the option of mutating them?
Oh those wily Chinese manufacturers, they are so forward thinking...
heckler73
Well-Known Member
I was looking for this old Hydroponics book that I read in the 90s (when I was first learning) so I could "refresh" my memory on the calculations I need to make when mixing "nutes". I managed to find a NEW edition of it (Hydroponics Food Production -- Howard Resh) at my University (Online edition even LOL...) but I was over at his website, and he has a good article on tomatoes.
Anyway, I remember you were questioning the issue of pollination and he made special mention of that:
Pollination:
Tomato flowers must be pollinated every day to get fruit set (photo 9). Fruit set is the formation of small fruit on the clusters that will expand into tomatoes within 6 weeks or so. Pollination in a commercial greenhouse is achieved by use of bumble bees. This is not feasible for in your home. The best way is to use an electric toothbrush. Simply place the toothbrush behind the truss vibrating it for 3 to 4 seconds. Do this in the late morning or early afternoon when humidity levels in the air will be lower than the early morning. Flowers are receptive when their sepals bend back (photo 10). You can tap the flowers with your hand and see the fine pollen fall. Placing a piece of black paper behind will permit you to better see the flow of pollen. Without pollination fruit cannot form. In some cases you can use a fruit set hormone, but often its use results in soft fruit due to inadequate pollination. Pollination is an important part of the everyday training of your plants in order to get tomato production.
http://www.howardresh.com/Hydroponic-Culture-of-tomatoes.html
After all, we don't have bees in our houses to do the damn work for us! I wouldn't have thought about that, so I am passing it on...
Anyway, I remember you were questioning the issue of pollination and he made special mention of that:
Pollination:
Tomato flowers must be pollinated every day to get fruit set (photo 9). Fruit set is the formation of small fruit on the clusters that will expand into tomatoes within 6 weeks or so. Pollination in a commercial greenhouse is achieved by use of bumble bees. This is not feasible for in your home. The best way is to use an electric toothbrush. Simply place the toothbrush behind the truss vibrating it for 3 to 4 seconds. Do this in the late morning or early afternoon when humidity levels in the air will be lower than the early morning. Flowers are receptive when their sepals bend back (photo 10). You can tap the flowers with your hand and see the fine pollen fall. Placing a piece of black paper behind will permit you to better see the flow of pollen. Without pollination fruit cannot form. In some cases you can use a fruit set hormone, but often its use results in soft fruit due to inadequate pollination. Pollination is an important part of the everyday training of your plants in order to get tomato production.
http://www.howardresh.com/Hydroponic-Culture-of-tomatoes.html
After all, we don't have bees in our houses to do the damn work for us! I wouldn't have thought about that, so I am passing it on...
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
Wow, just saw your edit. Sorry, I'm way late on this one.
No, they have "small" one's that only cool 70W (I think that's the smallest form that they are available in). I just mean that some have the fan mounted vertically like my SuperMicro. I had to think a little on how I was going to hang it exactly. The ones that have the fan mounted horizontally sometimes have 4 very convenient screw holes at each corner which would allow you to hang it in virtually any orientation you wanted with relative ease. They come in a bunch of different cooling capacities, check it out:
http://www.arctic.ac/en/p/cooling/cpu.html
This one cools 100W so it'd be perfect for my little RP project if I hadn't already bought another SuperMicro. Given my small tent, however, I can't imagine hanging the spotlight in any orientation other than dead center and straight down, so it's not a big deal.
One thing about having a cooler this size is the fan doesn't have to run at 10W. Maybe your heat sinks will be better off if there is fan failure, though? Idk, YMMV.
Anyway, thanks for the tips on pollination, I'll keep them in mind.
SnotBoogie
Well-Known Member
whats a "fruit ring"? (tomato)
edit: also your humidity seems rather low at 20%, especially after a watering, Bumpy
edit: also your humidity seems rather low at 20%, especially after a watering, Bumpy
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
Yea, not exactly sure how to deal with that. Highest it gets is 26%. I'm hoping once the Chiesel gets bigger (and I get a clone of it running) humidity will rise. I've thought about building a swamp cooler, I can open the vents to raise ambient temperature a bit so it wouldn't get too cold if that became a problem. Not sure, mulling my options over. Thanks for the concern , though, it's definitely shared.
Fruit rings (aka cracking or splitting):
http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/images/9-8 GRETCHEN tomato concentric rings.jpg
Sometimes caused by overwatering after a dry spell; the plant pumps too much water up to the fruit in too little time and cause the skin to crack. They can sometimes burst at a seam, and sometimes you get circular cracks like you see in the picture.
Fruit rings (aka cracking or splitting):
http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/images/9-8 GRETCHEN tomato concentric rings.jpg
Sometimes caused by overwatering after a dry spell; the plant pumps too much water up to the fruit in too little time and cause the skin to crack. They can sometimes burst at a seam, and sometimes you get circular cracks like you see in the picture.
SnotBoogie
Well-Known Member
I don't know what will work in your environment - but the ghetto solution i have is to get a pack of big sponges, wet them and stick them in a drip tray. I change mine once a day at ~23C and get a boost from 20% to 45% humidity with only a single large sponge. This is in a wildly different situation though obviously (its warmer in my cab than outside 
)
changing every day is annoying though, definitely. Im sure someone could suggest a more elegant solution.
)changing every day is annoying though, definitely. Im sure someone could suggest a more elegant solution.
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
I thought about sponges actually! I can't believe you get RH up to 45% with a tray of sponges, though, that's insane. I saw a little instructable where a guy used like a self watering dog bowl, sponges, some disposable tupperware, and a little case fan to make his own swamp cooler on the cheap (not that cheap, actually, once you do the math). I'll look into this, thanks, man.
As for a more elegant solution, I had planned on purchasing an Aprilaire humidifier tune-up package, or maybe something used if I can find it cheaper. Basically, I wanted that filter fixed vertically inside a tote with distributor on top, water in the bottom, very small (few L/m) water pump like those they use for cooking (but a high quality one that will last a while and will be quiet) that would pump water up to the distributor so it can flow down the filter. Then on either side of the tote I just attach duct mounts so that the exhaust from my flower tent goes through the filter and into the veg tent and effectively raises ambient RH in my room. No idea if that'd be cost effective, tbh, I mean *bam* there's a cheap swamp cooler, wtf's wrong with you Bumpin', why you gotta think the way you do? Wasting Time 101.
Edit - I wonder how hard it would be to create a screen for my extraction fan so I can load a gigantic damp sponge right in front of the intake. I might try it, actually.
As for a more elegant solution, I had planned on purchasing an Aprilaire humidifier tune-up package, or maybe something used if I can find it cheaper. Basically, I wanted that filter fixed vertically inside a tote with distributor on top, water in the bottom, very small (few L/m) water pump like those they use for cooking (but a high quality one that will last a while and will be quiet) that would pump water up to the distributor so it can flow down the filter. Then on either side of the tote I just attach duct mounts so that the exhaust from my flower tent goes through the filter and into the veg tent and effectively raises ambient RH in my room. No idea if that'd be cost effective, tbh, I mean *bam* there's a cheap swamp cooler, wtf's wrong with you Bumpin', why you gotta think the way you do? Wasting Time 101.
Edit - I wonder how hard it would be to create a screen for my extraction fan so I can load a gigantic damp sponge right in front of the intake. I might try it, actually.
SnotBoogie
Well-Known Member
Hmmm thats a cool idea. Bet you'd be changing sponges every 5 minutes if your intake came through it, though.
OK - how about this -
If you could create a drip system that simply dripped onto the sponge - and the conditions in the tent stayed regular - you should be able to figure out the perfect rate of water in relation to its speed of evaporation. all you'd really need would be a valve you can adjust, i guess. I don't know if actively forcing air through it would even be worthwhile, considering the huge surface area of the sponges.
OK - how about this -
If you could create a drip system that simply dripped onto the sponge - and the conditions in the tent stayed regular - you should be able to figure out the perfect rate of water in relation to its speed of evaporation. all you'd really need would be a valve you can adjust, i guess. I don't know if actively forcing air through it would even be worthwhile, considering the huge surface area of the sponges.
SnotBoogie
Well-Known Member
duhhhh....
Its a Sponge!
I was sat thinking of the best way to get a steady flow of water into a sponge, so its always perfectly saturated...
You could just leave a sponge with one side in a saucer of water. When the top dries out, it will wick more from the saucer.
Why have i not been doing this already?
Herp a Derp!
Its a Sponge!
I was sat thinking of the best way to get a steady flow of water into a sponge, so its always perfectly saturated...
You could just leave a sponge with one side in a saucer of water. When the top dries out, it will wick more from the saucer.
Why have i not been doing this already?
Herp a Derp!
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
The only DYI system that I know of that raises your room RH significantly (4x4 max) is Hanging a large wet bath towel BUT only lasts a day(easy to reapply though). Any water filled container with a large surface area will work too, but it's a small increase at best.....
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
Hrm, you might be onto something, boogie. You can either use a burette for the drip system, or you can just have a sponge soaking up water from one of those self watering dog bowls like I mentioned. How would this be implemented in a tent? Am I that out of it right now?
Good news, though, I know someone who's getting a new furnace, and they just so happen to be switching out humidifiers which means I get an Aprilaire humidifier for free. I just have to clean the sediment off of the filter as much as possible because it's ~15 years old so you can imagine what that looks like. Lime Away to the rescue. It's got its own inline fan which draws air from the blower (just past the coil) through the filter and reroutes it back towards the furnace output (basically a 180 degree turn while passing through the filter). Given that this little fan has to create a higher pressure difference than a 2k-4kCFM blower fan I'm guessing it's going to be loud as fuck, so maybe I'll have to just scrap that component and use my extraction fan. Maybe I'm thinking of things wrong here, though, a loud humidifier doesn't sound very convenient. If it's quiet that's awesome, it'd become an active intake for my flower tent probably. We'll see how that all goes, and maybe I'll just stick with the sponge idea in the end because I would still need to figure out a recirculating reservoir type deal with a cheap, quiet, reliable, low Liters per minute water pump if such a beast exists.
And now I'm back at square one, I feel. What if a higher number of plants transpire enough to keep RH somewhat agreeable? Why waste money? What if I spend money and it doesn't work that well, I'd be better off with a second hand swamp cooler off eBay or craigslist. Grrrr.
Good news, though, I know someone who's getting a new furnace, and they just so happen to be switching out humidifiers which means I get an Aprilaire humidifier for free. I just have to clean the sediment off of the filter as much as possible because it's ~15 years old so you can imagine what that looks like. Lime Away to the rescue. It's got its own inline fan which draws air from the blower (just past the coil) through the filter and reroutes it back towards the furnace output (basically a 180 degree turn while passing through the filter). Given that this little fan has to create a higher pressure difference than a 2k-4kCFM blower fan I'm guessing it's going to be loud as fuck, so maybe I'll have to just scrap that component and use my extraction fan. Maybe I'm thinking of things wrong here, though, a loud humidifier doesn't sound very convenient. If it's quiet that's awesome, it'd become an active intake for my flower tent probably. We'll see how that all goes, and maybe I'll just stick with the sponge idea in the end because I would still need to figure out a recirculating reservoir type deal with a cheap, quiet, reliable, low Liters per minute water pump if such a beast exists.
And now I'm back at square one, I feel. What if a higher number of plants transpire enough to keep RH somewhat agreeable? Why waste money? What if I spend money and it doesn't work that well, I'd be better off with a second hand swamp cooler off eBay or craigslist. Grrrr.
SnotBoogie
Well-Known Member
Ahh now i understand what you mean by dog bowl waterer. Personally man, I am a firm believer in doing it for nothing if you can. Best to try the cheap solution and move onto something else if it DOESNT work.
That said, cant hurt to have that humidifier around. You might decided to do a bigger project sometime.
That said, cant hurt to have that humidifier around. You might decided to do a bigger project sometime.
heckler73
Well-Known Member
Well, I got the process started.
I put the seeds (3 of each) in paper towels, and lightly soaked them with an ULTRA-MILD (0.3mL/L H2O) of Gen Hydro 3-part mix. pH 6.3:
Juliet -- A roma style tomato, I believe (based on the appearance) it is similar to the Marzano (IIRC) variety I saw being grown by one of my relatives in Italy. It is a "meatier" tomato than a normal Roma, and the fruit tended to be larger. However, I am getting those started for transplant outside later. It is a good tomato for salads or canning, in general.
Sasha's Pride -- This Russian Heirloom is EARLY Maturing, and I'll be growing one of those under the light (which should get me 5 months of crops when she starts fruiting). I've decided to forgo the SWC method for Soil on this first round, just to make sure it will be a feasible environment for cultivation. There is no point putting extra effort and expense into something that may fail miserably. I also like the 4 Oz fruit claims (relative to the 1 Oz Juliets) which will be good for salads and more general purposes (like burger toppings!!!) or just eating raw with some salt when I want a Vitamin C fix...
And here is the setup... that's right, you aren't seeing things. I'm going to be growing it in the sink.
Why? Why the fuck not! I never use it, and that area stays fairly cool during the summer, plus there is an outlet from the furnace piping right into the area, which will supplement the CO2 (at least during cold times), but I have the added benefit of just doing a Vinegar/Sodium Bicarbonate "ghetto CO2" reaction in the sink, and due to its density, it will just wallow around in the tub waiting to be sucked up by Sasha...yes, I have a drain plug in there.
Light is suspended by a chain with two hooks, allowing me finer height adjustment relative to a single hook. I'll likely upgrade fittings at a later date, probably to ratchets...
The plant that's in there is just a tester so I can see how close the light can be without causing problems. So far so good at 6-8" ... In fact, the plant is loving it, putting out gorgeous new growth with a waxy sheen that makes it look almost fake
And with that, I'll leave you with a couple scans from the pages of another Tomato book I found online through the University.
Tomato Plant Culture
In the Field, Greenhouse, and Home Garden, Second Edition
Benton J . Jones
CRC Press 2007
It has some interesting bits of info...
I put the seeds (3 of each) in paper towels, and lightly soaked them with an ULTRA-MILD (0.3mL/L H2O) of Gen Hydro 3-part mix. pH 6.3:
Juliet -- A roma style tomato, I believe (based on the appearance) it is similar to the Marzano (IIRC) variety I saw being grown by one of my relatives in Italy. It is a "meatier" tomato than a normal Roma, and the fruit tended to be larger. However, I am getting those started for transplant outside later. It is a good tomato for salads or canning, in general.
Sasha's Pride -- This Russian Heirloom is EARLY Maturing, and I'll be growing one of those under the light (which should get me 5 months of crops when she starts fruiting). I've decided to forgo the SWC method for Soil on this first round, just to make sure it will be a feasible environment for cultivation. There is no point putting extra effort and expense into something that may fail miserably. I also like the 4 Oz fruit claims (relative to the 1 Oz Juliets) which will be good for salads and more general purposes (like burger toppings!!!) or just eating raw with some salt when I want a Vitamin C fix...
And here is the setup... that's right, you aren't seeing things. I'm going to be growing it in the sink.
Why? Why the fuck not! I never use it, and that area stays fairly cool during the summer, plus there is an outlet from the furnace piping right into the area, which will supplement the CO2 (at least during cold times), but I have the added benefit of just doing a Vinegar/Sodium Bicarbonate "ghetto CO2" reaction in the sink, and due to its density, it will just wallow around in the tub waiting to be sucked up by Sasha...yes, I have a drain plug in there.
Light is suspended by a chain with two hooks, allowing me finer height adjustment relative to a single hook. I'll likely upgrade fittings at a later date, probably to ratchets...
The plant that's in there is just a tester so I can see how close the light can be without causing problems. So far so good at 6-8" ... In fact, the plant is loving it, putting out gorgeous new growth with a waxy sheen that makes it look almost fake
And with that, I'll leave you with a couple scans from the pages of another Tomato book I found online through the University.
Tomato Plant Culture
In the Field, Greenhouse, and Home Garden, Second Edition
Benton J . Jones
CRC Press 2007
It has some interesting bits of info...
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
Fuggin' sick. Your plant's gonna out grow mine pretty soon, it looks huge for how young it is. Looks awesome heckler, and thanks for the info. When you get time you should post a natural color photo of her.
So far Kid has three itty bitty tomatoes that he's working on, with a couple more flowers that I believe are pollinated, and more flowers on the way. I've had to cut a lot of leaves off of him (actually, most of his leaves). He's got new branches forming, though, from all the previous nodes. Hopefully some Greensand can keep away bud drop and I'm going to raise all the lights since the dry, curled leaves sound like heat stress/too much light. Hopefully it isn't fungal, but I can't imagine it's that.
So far Kid has three itty bitty tomatoes that he's working on, with a couple more flowers that I believe are pollinated, and more flowers on the way. I've had to cut a lot of leaves off of him (actually, most of his leaves). He's got new branches forming, though, from all the previous nodes. Hopefully some Greensand can keep away bud drop and I'm going to raise all the lights since the dry, curled leaves sound like heat stress/too much light. Hopefully it isn't fungal, but I can't imagine it's that.
heckler73
Well-Known Member
LOL I think you missed the part where I said it was a "tester" plant. It's just some sick houseplant--that was looking like Finshaggy blessed it--which I originally stuck under the 300W LED to test that light out (before I took it to the lab
). And under there it came back to life within 3 days...Now it's testing out the multichip for me while I wait for the tomato seeds to germinate. I just put them into the towels this morning! Shit, if I could get seeds to turn into little bushes that fast, I sure wouldn't be here... I'd be in the Sahara turning it into a food basket, trading produce with the Chinese for more LEDs... I believe that would be a good bilateral agreement, no?
Although, that's a good idea (taking a pic of the plant). You'll be able to see the change from what it was doing pre-LED, to what it is doing under it, since it still has the old sick growth on it.
Even though my experience is limited with LEDs, the effects are undeniably intriguing in a positive way; even at this early of a stage.
The camera doesn't do the "glistening leaves" justice...
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
Wow. I feel dumb. I was thinking it seemed like quite the paradox, but figured maybe you had it growing for a bit under a different light, or something? I didn't know... Looks like a cool little plant, though, hope it turns around.
As for Kid, did some more reading. I think what I have is called "leaf roll." It happens with too hot, or too cool of climates and is exacerbated by overwatering. You get leaves that curl up from the edges toward the middle and dry out as it progresses. Also, other vegetation that have yet to curl/dry out are thicker and leathery. That sounds about right from what I can tell. Well son of a bitch, I've been watering the damn thing thinking it was >>>drying out<<<... So I'm just a douche, it's not nutrients or heat stress, I just made the biggest rookie mistake ever. Hopefully I can sort him out before too many of these new branches get big. I also LST'ed him a bit, I don't want him to out grow the tent. He's pretty ugly right now so I won't take pictures, but here's some shots of his tomatoes.
As for Kid, did some more reading. I think what I have is called "leaf roll." It happens with too hot, or too cool of climates and is exacerbated by overwatering. You get leaves that curl up from the edges toward the middle and dry out as it progresses. Also, other vegetation that have yet to curl/dry out are thicker and leathery. That sounds about right from what I can tell. Well son of a bitch, I've been watering the damn thing thinking it was >>>drying out<<<... So I'm just a douche, it's not nutrients or heat stress, I just made the biggest rookie mistake ever. Hopefully I can sort him out before too many of these new branches get big. I also LST'ed him a bit, I don't want him to out grow the tent. He's pretty ugly right now so I won't take pictures, but here's some shots of his tomatoes.
heckler73
Well-Known Member
LST? On a Beefsteak? You're going to need to worry about suspending those branches when you get the full fruits developing, not bending them down. But I guess it will depend on how far they go before fully ripening.
Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to do?
Bumping Spheda
Well-Known Member
Nope, you're understanding me. You think LST will prohibit me from tying the branches up once I move it outdoors and fruit gets big? I didn't think it'd be a big deal. :/
Anyway, here's a shot of the Lil' Cheese, I forgot to post one of her.
Anyway, here's a shot of the Lil' Cheese, I forgot to post one of her.
heckler73
Well-Known Member
OH! No no... not at all. I was under the impression you were going to keep this under the light exclusively, and perhaps thought Beefsteaks were determinate plants (i.e. bushes) where support may not be required.
So, YES, I DID misunderstand you...
But now that I think about it, doing LST on a "bushy" tomato might be a good idea! Assuming it would increase budding potential (either in gross or nodes). That is the point of LST, correct? To expose more growing area to light like "SOG/SCROG"?
Then just interfere with gravity (stakes or hangers) where necessary to support the augmented growth... I don't see why that wouldn't work.
