My first grow

mared juwan said:

OK, here's my two cents. See the 4th picture in your last post, labeled "the big one", see how every leaf is almost exactly parallel to the ground. Then the next pic all leaves are pointing towards the ground. For what it's worth, every single one of the leaves in my growroom is like your first pic all of the time. They lay completely flat and parallel to the light with the flattest and largest surface area exposed to the light. This is the best angle for optimum light absorption. So my point is that your frequency of watering is still off. They should never droop that much. Like I said before I'm almost positive that the one you cut the leaves off is not suffering from too much nute but rather too much water. So maybe keep watering all the other plants like normal but choose one to water less just to see what happens. That soil will weigh literally nothing when dry so let that sucker dry out and get some air to its roots. Oxygen is extremely important to healthy plants and big buds. OK, two cents over.

I definitely vote for HPS. As much light as possible. As long as temps remain below 85 it's good. I can't make out anything as far as sex in the pics. It might take up to a week to really be sure on all of them so be patient.

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I´m on my first grow as well, but I think Mared might be right about the overwatering... as a matter of fact I think overwatering is the problem with 2 of my plants in veg as well.
Mared, besides drooping, do leaves turn slightly yellow as well due to overwatering, or do they just turn dark green when overwatered ?

Tatan said:

I´m on my first grow as well, but I think Mared might be right about the overwatering... as a matter of fact I think overwatering is the problem with 2 of my plants in veg as well.
Mared, besides drooping, do leaves turn slightly yellow as well due to overwatering, or do they just turn dark green when overwatered ?

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Overwatering will cause yellowing and eventually brownish gray necrotic patches as well as severe undercurling and/or wilting of the leaves.

From GrowFAQ:

Over Watering:
The plants in figure 5 were on a continous drip system, where nutrient solution is constantly being pumped into the medium. This tends to keep the entire root system completely saturated. A better way would be to periodically feed the plants, say for 1/2 hour every 2-3 hours. This would give the roots a chance to get needed air to them, and prevent root rot and other problems.
Don't be throw off by the fact that the plants in figure 5 are sitting in still water, this is actually an H2O2 solution used to try and correct the problem. Adding an airstone to the tub would also help add O2 to the solution.

Well, I´m going to stop watering one of my plants to test what you said. Thanks.

mared juwan said:

OK, here's my two cents.

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You're two cents are always appreciated mared, that's why this journal exists! I'm still trying to figure out their water schedule. I'm overly concerned with under watering I think. As you suggest, I have been using the weight test, though I may not be waiting until they get REALLY light...just lighter than the other ones.

I think their situation will improve once I get them in bigger pots. The plants are getting a little big for their britches, and I can only imagine space for the roots decreases every day. Soon enough, soon enough...

Mared, you say when you water you have no droopage at all? Mine always droop after watering, and usually stay droopy until the next day when they stretch back out.

Thanks for your help!

Changed out the lights this morning. currently running 11 23watt 2700k cfls and 2 24watt 3000k t5ho. The 2 large 65watt 2700 cfls and the hps are next on the agenda.

Question about the hps: does anyone know if it acceptable to mount the fixture vertically? I don't think this will have any effect on the bulb, but I'm worried the ballast may not be designed to sit like that (as it is incorporated in the fixture and cannot be removed). Just trying to figure out how to get all the light in the room at one time...

I resisted the temptation to water a couple plants today. One of them in particular is drooping rather heavily, though I know it hasn't been watered for at least 4 days. This is where my problem invariable arises--I fear the drooping is from too LITTLE water, not too much. The pot feels lightish, the moisture meter says its dry, and I know I haven't watered for a couple days...so if its not overwatering causing the droop, I think it's lack of water (which apparently can cause similar signs of stress to underwatering). Ugh.

Here are a few looking good and not droopy


Here's a few looking a little more droopy


Here are the tops from the first shot


And finally the younger set of sisters


Still no sign on sex. Looking pretty much the same. I have patience though (at least I do if I keep telling myself that...)

Looks good Jerry. I do hope you get an idea on why the droop, so u can fix it!! gl with that.. oh and 3 of 4 of my germs cracked the surface today!!! the other cannadentail is a little behind..

Yea that's the problem. You've got it right - underwatered plants can look very similar to overwatered plants. I wish I could be there to lift up your pots but because I can't I'm just guessing. The clue I was going off was when you got back from your trip you said they were drooping because the sitter had watered them earlier that day. If they were just watered they couldn't be too dry. But maybe I misunderstood. Maybe they really are too dry. Are pulling your hair out yet? LOL The way you can be pretty sure is water a plant and wait for the leaves to flatten out like I said. If it was too dry they should perk up right away. If it was already too wet then it will take a while for the pot to dry out again and the leaves to raise back up.

I think I was overwatering, but I was watering every day. Jerry, you need to look at the meter and also how the soil looks...Also, your plants are looking much better than my 2 afflicted plants, one stopped growing and leaves are yellowish and the other is growing awkwardly, with slight yellowing. From everything I have seen here, to me the most likely scenario is that maybe the sitter overwatered while you were gone, but since you even have a meter that measures the soil mositure, I think chances are that you are not overwatering...

I´m pretty sure that I was though.

Watering is a bitch. But regardless of what is stressing them, they continue to grow. I'm certainly not watering every day, and for most of them not every 2 days. I'm using every conceivable test to determine what is dry and what needs water. As I said before, I was waiting for the pots to get light relative to the others, but I think maybe they could be a little lighter.

Also, I'm not blaming the sitter. I gave a pretty thorough crash course in watering, and I think they did a fine job, but this is just something that I'll need to fine tune to get it right. And what better way to tune than to practice right?

Anyway, thanks for everyone's help. I'm hoping once they get in their larger pots they can get more regular waterings and we can get this straightened out!

Update to come tomorrow...I'm willing those little white hairs to push themselves out of the nodes!

I wasn't blaming the sitter either. I have utmost respect for people who look out for others like that. My grow would not be possible without my sitter. They do get some compensation but with the secret they are keeping it is well worth it.

mared juwan said:

I wasn't blaming the sitter either. I have utmost respect for people who look out for others like that. My grow would not be possible without my sitter. They do get some compensation but with the secret they are keeping it is well worth it.

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Amen to that!

So after our discussion about watering frequency and the status of my plants, I was hesitant to water them yesterday morning. By the afternoon, I realized the largest one had begun to droop--but not the way the others droop. The lower branches were losing their ability to support the leaves and were bending down. I took this to be a sign of too little water. The moisture meter indicated the soil was dry, and the pot was light enough, so I decided to water. I found a couple similar candidates and chose to water them, so three in all.

As I am now in the 12/12 cycle, and I've switched the lights, I elected to give them a feeding using the Tiger Bloom and Big Bloom, and ceased use of the Grow Big. I used the recommended dosage of 1-2 tsp per gallon. After watering, they did their customary droop, and stayed that way for the remaining 3 hours of their daylight.

This morning, as expected, they have stood up nice and tall and are looking very nice. Three other plants, watered the day before, are also standing up nice and straight.

Take a look...

The one on the right was watered yesterday, and is still a little droopy, but I expect it to pick up by tomorrow, if not by the end of the day as the soil dries out a little more.


The one on the right was watered yesterday, the one on the left two days ago. Both looking nice.


These three got watered shortly after taking this pic. The one in the middle is suffering from a similar droop to what I experienced yesterday with the big one. I'm expecting by tomorrow these will look vastly different. All pots were light, the meter read dry, and I knew the round pots haven't been watered for at least 4 days.


Here's the one I slaughtered. It's still alive, but is not doing well. The top leaves are all turning brown, and even the new tips are coming out brown, which I don't think is a good sign. My final prognosis--I over-nuted it, then over-watered it. Roots didn't get to dry out, plant is drowning (not enough O2). I haven't watered in 4 days, and the soil is just now moving out of the wet/moist side of the dial and into just moist. I think I got too excited with this one because it was huge. Oh well, you live and learn. What do you all think about me topping this one? The stem is very thick, and the lower branches are still growing, so just a thought. I wouldn't do it until after it reveals sex though...


Speaking of, here's a shot of one of the big one's nodes--there's a little white nub just chillin between the petiole and the new leaves shooting through...been there for a couple days...looks like its going to be a preflower, but still isn't doing anything


Here's a side shot of the of the right plant from the first pic in today's update


Here's an under shot of the big one. Looks nice.

So all plants are now fairly caught up on water and should be good for at least a couple days. I'll be spending my weekend rigging up the hps and 2 65watt 2700k cfls...

Wish me luck! I'm gonna need it!

So I finally got the hps set up. It wasn't easy. I almost moved my operation to the closet because it was marginally bigger. But I made it work and here it is.




The setup is good, but the area beneath the ballast on the left is pretty deprived of light, except for the 2 t5's. Oh well, its worth it for 16,000 extra lumens.

I was initially concerned about the heat, but early returns suggest it will be ok. I've placed the thermometer above the lights, clipped to a chain. I figured it was the best spot because heat rises, but at the same time it might be hotter than I think under the lights. We'll see what happens.

Everything looks terrific. Just take a scientific approach to figuring out the watering and you'll have fat buds for sure. And you're watering isn't that much off in the first place. From the pics those round pots seem huge compared to the size of the plant so 4 days for them to dry out is not a long time at all. I would go ahead and top the one that got mangled. The lower shoots look healthier than the taller main stalk. But yea the lighting looks great. Keep it up man!

Things went fine today. I managed to add one 65watt cfl, but haven't quite figured out what to do with the other one. I attached a couple pics that show the setup. Cramped, but lots of light.

The big plant began to wilt today--2 days after last water. The top 1/3 of the main stem was leaning a little, and other stems showed a similar state. The lights have already gone out, but I gave a brisk watering anyway. Not a very thorough watering (the water never dripped out the bottom) but enough to hopefully pick things up a little overnight.

That's it. No heat problems thus far with the hps. I added a second duct to my homemade ac unit, using a single 80mm 39cfm cpu fan. While the fan works, I thought 39 cfm was a decent number...turns out its not much better than my free old school apple original. At least there are 2 running now...I got the fan on ebay for like $4 so as always you get what you pay for. I'm considering investing in a 100+cfm if the heat becomes a bigger issue. But only if necessary.

I'll get some more pics up tomorrow!

Well, no sign of sex today. The little bumps are still just that--haven't gotten too much bigger, and don't really look like balls, but they are still very small. My guess is these are males as I'm told they reveal sex first. Bummer, because one is real big and I have grown somewhat attached

I'm holding out hope though. After only 4 days, I shouldn't expect too much.

Most/all have become droopy between yesterday and today. The pots are getting real light 2 days after water. I think the bigger ones are going through the water much faster, so they were probably wilting due to lack of water, and definitely not too much water.

4 received thorough waterings today. The rest get misting/light watering until tomorrow (or later today, depending on their condition) when they will be re-evaluated and probably watered. Here's a couple pics before I watered. Note how droopy they've gotten in just 2 days...CRAZY...they need bigger pots stat!


Here's the other three...the difference in one day is staggering


Here are the doubles. The younger pair on the left are looking good since their watering, while the two on the right are showing early signs of droopage, but still look good.


That's all for today. Still looking to add the other 65watt cfl (note the other one in pics from yesterday and the position of the bulb--trying to get some light to that undergrowth!). Otherwise, temp is holding about 75-79, and things are moving along.

I'm going to top the sick one once I've determined sex and if it is worth my time (and extra space, as I was going to use the top as a clone). I'll post any further developments as they, um, develop.

Looking good, Jerry. This droopage issue is rather curious indeed. Thought we'd have it solved by now. I think you may want to research into the transplanting a bit more. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to do it after flower has begun. I'm not sure though because I never transplant. For what it's worth I don't believe that rootbinding is as big an issue as it is made out to be (especially here at RIU). I see people transplanting four or five times and I don't get it. My plants stay in the same pots from start to finish. I've grown 6 foot tall plants in 2 gallon pots, 4 footers in 1 gallons, and I'm working on some 3 footers in 1/2 gallon pots right now. And they've all had plenty fat buds. All it means is they dry out a bit quicker and need watering more often.

And I think cloning is a great idea and the only way to truly get your money's worth from a seed you've bought. You just want to make sure the branch you cut is as healthy as can be. You don't want to try to root a stressed cutting. I've cloned plants that were 21 days in flower before. They take longer to root and grow a little funny at first but I think a healthy cutting from a plant two or three weeks into flower is better than a sickly cutting from a plant at 5 days flower. So I would let the mangled plant recover a bit before taking your cuts.

mared juwan said:

Looking good, Jerry. This droopage issue is rather curious indeed. Thought we'd have it solved by now. I think you may want to research into the transplanting a bit more. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to do it after flower has begun. I'm not sure though because I never transplant. For what it's worth I don't believe that rootbinding is as big an issue as it is made out to be (especially here at RIU). I see people transplanting four or five times and I don't get it. My plants stay in the same pots from start to finish. I've grown 6 foot tall plants in 2 gallon pots, 4 footers in 1 gallons, and I'm working on some 3 footers in 1/2 gallon pots right now. And they've all had plenty fat buds. All it means is they dry out a bit quicker and need watering more often.

And I think cloning is a great idea and the only way to truly get your money's worth from a seed you've bought. You just want to make sure the branch you cut is as healthy as can be. You don't want to try to root a stressed cutting. I've cloned plants that were 21 days in flower before. They take longer to root and grow a little funny at first but I think a healthy cutting from a plant two or three weeks into flower is better than a sickly cutting from a plant at 5 days flower. So I would let the mangled plant recover a bit before taking your cuts.

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Thanks mared, lots of good info. I haven't looked too far into transplanting, and under ideal circumstances I would have started in the larger pots...but my issue is space, and I can't spare any for males! I got as large pots as I could (5.5" x 5.5") and still fit 11 plants in there, but have 7" x 7" deep pots that I planned on moving the females into. I've not heard about transplanting during flower as a problem, though as I said I need to read more about it before I do anything.

I've read that it is possible to revert back to vegging after flower has been initiated and sex determined. If I end up with fewer females than I'm hoping, say 3 or 4, I'd want to put them in veg a little longer and let them grow to produce more yeild per plant. This re-vegging thing may be bunk, and I'm certainly not going to do it without research, but would seem to indicate that I can determine sex, revert to veg, and then transplant, if transplanting during flower is too stressful for the girls.

Cloning, then, would be the alternative. I can clone the females and plant the cuttings directly into the larger 7x7 pots. I'll probably do it anyway, but if I absolutly cannot transplant what I have now that is an option.

The only reason I even mentioned it before was because I plan on topping the sickly one anyway, and I might as well try to grow the top. If it dies, so what, it was cut to help the rest of the plant anyway.

Regarding the watering...those fed this morning have all responded very well and show almost no sign of droop. They are just getting thirsty really quickly.

SEX--I must have been too masculine when I called the big one "the big one,"
as I'm fairly certain those little nubs have become BALLS Judge for yourself...






I think the last pic confirms it. I'd like some feedback though just to make sure...maybe they'll sprout little white nuthairs? Maybe? No?

Awesome job man on the plants, i have a question when you water what do you use? Do you mist it with a spray bottle?