need help. second grow. deficiencys

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az2000

Well-Known Member
I'm still thinking the problem is that you're using soil nutes with soilless. You may be overfeeding, or they're just inappropriate for an organically inactive medium, contributing to the peat acidifying (which it's prone to do).

It's confusing like using hydro nutes in soil. Do you target 5.9 or 6.5? (is it soil or soilless?).

Since the runoff ph is so low, I would target 6.5 to help hold it higher.

Also, the visual could be partly nute burn, which could contribute to the "buildup-like" acidification of the runoff. The nature of the nutes might compound the mismatch between soil nutes with an organically inactive soil.

I would reduce the nutes. That would rule out nute burn and might help with the other possibilties. (And target 6.5. Even higher if it continues. When I had a acidic soil problem, I p up'ed to 7 sometimes.).
 
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tmartin845013

Member
OK well I just thought they were looking better so I would try to treat them better so I didn't run in to this issue. But here we are. Should I completely let them dry before I do anything? Thanks a ton everyone! Any help is appreciated. There not going to up and die on me are they?
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
I don't know what to advise. You said you fed half-strength nutrients after reducing your 700ppm water to something more reasonable like 200(?). And, it got worse. That was after not feeding for a week? And, you didn't do any waterings during that time?

You could follow @Whites advice and go back to 700ppm water. I just wouldn't think that's a winning strategy considering my experience with 800ppm water. But, you did make it as far as you did. So.... ?

If it were me, I would get some Botaniare GH Flora 3-part. I've used that in Pro-Mix HP soiless. (Unless you can find people who use FF in soilless.).

I keep thinking it has something to do with using organically active nutes in an inactive soilless medium. Going back to what you did may be better. But, I think you were heading for a problem anyway and it will continue.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
You could follow @Whites advice and go back to 700ppm water. I just wouldn't think that's a winning strategy considering my experience with 800ppm water. But, you did make it as far as you did. So.... ?
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I was thinking more about how 750ppm tap water could be an improvement: if it were heavy in carbonates it could be buffering the peat's acidity, acting like dolomite. That could point to the problem being the peat acidifying, and suggest amending 1-2 tbsp dolomite into the top of the medium. (It takes 10 days for dolomite to have any effect.).

That might be enough to keep you going with that water (since the water apparently did work all this time). Just supplement with dolomite that way and ph the nutrients up to 6.5, treat it as soil (not soilless).

Technically, I think a nutrient for hydro would work better in soilless. I don't know how it's going to work if you continue using the (organically active) nutrients which are probably contributing to the breakdown of the peat. But, switching to a hydro nute could add more variables than it would be worth (if dolomite would get you through it).

I use Fertliome Hy-Yield Agricultural Lime (if you can find it). If not, dolomite is typically 1.2 to 1 calcium carbonate to magnesium carbonate (or, shown as 1.6 to 1 elemental Ca to Mg). Sometimes it's hard to know what is dolomite because products aren't named that. If the label shows ratios close to that it should be good. If you get something that's not fine texture (pellets?) you should break it into something fine, as much as you can.
 
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tmartin845013

Member
OK thanks again. I got some lime I will be adding. Now here's the problem. I'm going on vacation for 3 days tomorrow and I don't want to leave them like this. Should I go ahead and put the lime in and water today after I watered sunday or should I let them completely dry and do this when I get back from my trip? I'm also not going to use any more tap water. I'll go back to my r/o water and cal-mag. And sorry for the confusion . I have only added that small amount of tap water 1 time which was the last time I watered on sunday.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
tmartin845013 said:
I'm also not going to use any more tap water. I'll go back to my r/o water and cal-mag.
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Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you said you did tap through the grow, and tried RO/tap which caused things to get immediately worse. That's why I was trying to understand how going back to "all tap" (750ppm) would be better. All I could think of is that it's high in carbonates and was buffering the soil.

But, if you were using RO/calmag the whole time, my reply is completely off base. And, I'm not sure I'd recommend dolomite now. Just for fear of you chasing too many options. I would be careful what you do next to avoid doing too many things. That's why I'm saying, if my dolomite suggestion was based on a misunderstanding of what has transpired, I'm not as certain about that suggestion.

I'm back to wondering if switching to a product more suitable for soilless would be appropriate. I see risks in that. In someways adding dolomite and treating the soilless as soil (6.5) seems less drastic. I'm just not sure that's going to be enough. (I'm leaning toward doing that.).

EDIT: As far as when to water next. I would let it dry. If it won't dry too much by the time you return, I would wait. It's a tough call. I remember fighting a problem like this and it's tempting to try to improve the soil condition, but holding it wetter is worse.
 
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tmartin845013

Member
Yeah sorry for the confusion. OK well I guess I will just wait and water when I get home. They definitely won't be too dry by then. It's just hard for me to stand by and do nothing when they start to look crappy so I get my pH probe out and start thinking I need to adjust the pH to correct the lockout. But I have learned now that the more it dries the better the pH reads. There's just so many damn variables especially on my second grow. I checked my ph this afternoon and out of the 4 plants the one that's reading 4.9 pH looks the best, and the rest are around 5.4 and are looking deficient again which is really throwing me off. So the lime you think you would wait on using? I just don't understand how they got so far off I had 0 problems till the second week of flower when i realized i had a lockout. Then after the flush I seem to have lost control somehow. I may be just trying to chase the right pH too much but I feel like it shouldn't be this hard to keep in the correct range. I think I will order the GH flora trio and get away from fox farms.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
tmartin845013 said:
I think I will order the GH flora trio and get away from fox farms.
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That, or use soil (not soilless). I'm not saying GH 3-part (with soilless) is better than soil. I like soil. I get a better taste with more organic'ish sources of nutrients.

I would probably do dolomite. Rake 2tbsp into the top soil, water it in. (But, after it's dry).

I had a serious problem like you, but mine was salt buildup. Reducing nutrients, and feeding with more runoff for awhile fixed it. But, for awhile, I was doing the same thing you are. I even mixed hydrated lime into water, making ph 10 stuff, pouring that through the soil. (I don't recommend that. It helped pull me through. But that's not a recommended practice. Hydrated lime isn't good for the plant. Very strong. I think I used 3/4tsp/gal to get super high ph water). In my case, it was the only choice. Later I realized it was overfeeding and salt buildup.

But, same thing, watching the ph, not understanding why it kept sinking. It happened in early flower, like yours.

Based on my experience, I would say flush and feed half-strenght. But, if that makes it worse, then dolomite. (I used that too. It helped. But, it takes 10 days or so.).

Worst thing is keeping it wet, trying to remedy the soil thinking time is critical. Letting it dry will help more.
 
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tmartin845013

Member
:weed:Man I really appreciate this. I'm gonna try to use what you use mostly. I went ahead and ordered some nectar for the gods, hurculean harvest 0-10-0, some liquid karma, gmsg all purpose and the flower and bloom. I'm going to have to figure this dry nutrient situation out. Is there anything else I need to make this work well? I was looking at the potassium sulfate but it looked like you stopped using it in early flower, so I didn't know if it was needed now. I'm sure I'm forgetting to ask you something..
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
tmartin845013 said:
I was looking at the potassium sulfate but it looked like you stopped using it in early flower
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The idea is to target those ratios. Grow More Sea Grow AP and F&B don't get me there (no two products will produce any ratio.). So, I use K2SO4. A few other products in my footnotes will do it too (if you needed some Mg for a deficiency, langbeinite would be a good source of that and K. If you wanted to give some silica, the footnotes give examples of how to substitute K2SO4 to get silica and equivalent K.).

I stop using it in flower because I use more F&B, and the ratios come out in a way that boosting K isn't necessary. You can model boutique "lineups" in the spreadsheet and experiment with some of those ratios. For example, Advanced Nutrients Ph Perfect seems to run higher K. If you wanted to boost K like that, you could continue using K2SO4 in flower.

I wouldn't go crazy playing with it like that. Find something that works and then adjust something here or there and see how it compares.

I don't use Nector of the Gods nor Hurculean. But, it shouldn't matter what you use if you're figuring out the ratios and staying within reason (or targeting mine). Another member posted his Grow More Sea Grow. He's following a slightly different (simpler? fewer add-ons) schedule. That might give you some ideas too.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
If you add dolomite and continue using nutrients for organically active soil, I would treat it as soil and water at 6.5. (I don't ph my nutrients for soil. But, you're lacking some soil'y characteristics. You're trying to do soil in soilless and may adjust more to what you pour in. I would ph. But, do 6.5 like it's soil.).

If you create a more soil'y medium like I do, I would ph your nutrients then too. Get things working then try stepping away from ph. (You might have to step away from calmag first, but you should do that separately too. Calmag acidified my nutrient mix. Not sure it's compatible with going ph'less.).
 
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tmartin845013

Member
az2000 said:
If you add dolomite and continue using nutrients for organically active soil, I would treat it as soil and water at 6.5. (I don't ph my nutrients for soil. But, you're lacking some soil'y characteristics. You're trying to do soil in soilless and may adjust more to what you pour in. I would ph. But, do 6.5 like it's soil.).

If you create a more soil'y medium like I do, I would ph your nutrients then too. Get things working then try stepping away from ph. (You might have to step away from calmag first, but you should do that separately too. Calmag acidified my nutrient mix. Not sure it's compatible with going ph'less.).
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What can I substitute for calcium? I just use Cal mag because of my r/o water.
 
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tmartin845013

Member
Just got home from vacation. Plants were super dry but not wilted. Got my new bluelab ec/ph meter today so I added lime and flushed to find that I was over 2500 ppm again. So I flushed until my runoff was 6.3 and 5 to 600 ppm. I added liquid karma to my flush water and used R/O water and added tap water to get to 150 ppm and cut the call mag again. Does this sound good? I'm waiting on my new nutrients to show up so I can feed them later this week.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
Tums. Pure calcium carbonate. They do NOT dissolve easily in water. Don't sweat that. Blend one up in some water and use it. The little pieces just act like time released.
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One Tums mixed in normal US tap water and no calcium or magnesium deficiencies usually.
 
SamsonsRiddle

SamsonsRiddle

Well-Known Member
Your water should be put in around 5.8-6.2 - promix will buffer itself really well, and some say there is no need to ph like HomeBrewer. Promix has lime in it to keep things stable.

I don't know much about fox farms as i have only used dyna gro and advanced (very first time), but there may be some sort of moisture problem with the look of those plants. I was underwatering in promix BX (which holds more water - although i did add a little perlite and vermiculite) and it took on a similar look. This was watering every other day in fabric pots. I would suggest going with what az2000 said or another complete nutrient like dyna gro or jacks. With dyna gro i haven't had to use calmag and use distilled or ro water.
But like i said, fox farms may be complete and i just don't know it so take whatever i say with that knowledge.
 
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