neerGreen #2: Let's try soilless
- Thread starter cannabineer
- Start date
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Thanks. I realize that this is not a showcase grow, but i am trying to be up front about the learning aspects. cn
cannabox4me
Active Member
Hello neer,
I have just read through your two journals, this one and the one around this time last year.
I was just wondering (with all the problems you seem to be having for sometimes no apparent reason) - Have you considered the possibility of outgassing from plastics ?
A lot of your symptoms are consistent with this. For instance:
- Veeeery slow, stunted growth.
- Lack of axillary meristem activity (side growth)
- Scorching of leaves at very low ppms
- Multiple deficiencies even in presence of adequate minerals.
- Wilting and leaf-puckering (like water stress, overwatering) even though you are not over watering soil.
- In your first journal you said there was a pvc/vinyl/new plastic smell when you opened the tent ?
- In this journal your plants were looking good until you re-erected the tent no ? then the problems started again ?
I, and many others have lost time and torn our hair out chasing variables when the culprit was the environment itself. In my case in was cheap vinyl floor, for others it has been the tent itself (cheap PVC lining) I am sure being the person you are you will be off to research this thoroughly without need for links etc. Keywords: Outgassing, Offgassing, Phthalates, +PVC, +Vinyl.
One test you could run to see if your environment is a problem is very simple: Take one of the unhealthies out, and put her somewhere else for a while - if you see improvement then you know you have a problem in there.
Of course ideally for this test you would keep as many other variables the same as possible - Im thinking lighting mainly, otherwise if you DO see an improvement in the unhealthy test subject, you might be tempted to think something like "Well I only saw improvement because not so much was asked of the plant" etc.
However, even if you do not replicate other factors - I would simply suggest to bring one into your living area or kitchen (keep it away from cheap lino !!!!) - would it not still be quite telling if your plant does better under a 60w energy-saving bulb in your dining room than in a 600w cab ?
On the subject of your tent, it is a secret jardin dark room dr120? Secret Jardin are known for being one of the most respected tents on the market, they are aware of the offgassing issue, and they guarantee that their products won't kill your plants. Can't rule it out though, I have seen suspicious problems in a MK2 DR150 (Unconfirmed though).
Have a look around your area though and take a critical look at items (Particularly those from the petro-chemical industry) that could be poisinous to plants.
Anyway, it's something to consider.
Keep up the journals man, they are really good. Also, you have a very scientific approach which is perfect for weeding out the truth. AND you've got a real good grip on chemical nutrition, top man. I sincerely hope you stick around, sort the issues, and perhaps start geeking out at the finer end of the scale - I feel your brain is wasted on fixing this nonsensical unhealthyness.
Peace,
Cb4m
PS, that haiku was the best comeback I've seen in a long while.
I have just read through your two journals, this one and the one around this time last year.
I was just wondering (with all the problems you seem to be having for sometimes no apparent reason) - Have you considered the possibility of outgassing from plastics ?
A lot of your symptoms are consistent with this. For instance:
- Veeeery slow, stunted growth.
- Lack of axillary meristem activity (side growth)
- Scorching of leaves at very low ppms
- Multiple deficiencies even in presence of adequate minerals.
- Wilting and leaf-puckering (like water stress, overwatering) even though you are not over watering soil.
- In your first journal you said there was a pvc/vinyl/new plastic smell when you opened the tent ?
- In this journal your plants were looking good until you re-erected the tent no ? then the problems started again ?
I, and many others have lost time and torn our hair out chasing variables when the culprit was the environment itself. In my case in was cheap vinyl floor, for others it has been the tent itself (cheap PVC lining) I am sure being the person you are you will be off to research this thoroughly without need for links etc. Keywords: Outgassing, Offgassing, Phthalates, +PVC, +Vinyl.
One test you could run to see if your environment is a problem is very simple: Take one of the unhealthies out, and put her somewhere else for a while - if you see improvement then you know you have a problem in there.
Of course ideally for this test you would keep as many other variables the same as possible - Im thinking lighting mainly, otherwise if you DO see an improvement in the unhealthy test subject, you might be tempted to think something like "Well I only saw improvement because not so much was asked of the plant" etc.
However, even if you do not replicate other factors - I would simply suggest to bring one into your living area or kitchen (keep it away from cheap lino !!!!) - would it not still be quite telling if your plant does better under a 60w energy-saving bulb in your dining room than in a 600w cab ?
On the subject of your tent, it is a secret jardin dark room dr120? Secret Jardin are known for being one of the most respected tents on the market, they are aware of the offgassing issue, and they guarantee that their products won't kill your plants. Can't rule it out though, I have seen suspicious problems in a MK2 DR150 (Unconfirmed though).
Have a look around your area though and take a critical look at items (Particularly those from the petro-chemical industry) that could be poisinous to plants.
Anyway, it's something to consider.
Keep up the journals man, they are really good. Also, you have a very scientific approach which is perfect for weeding out the truth. AND you've got a real good grip on chemical nutrition, top man. I sincerely hope you stick around, sort the issues, and perhaps start geeking out at the finer end of the scale - I feel your brain is wasted on fixing this nonsensical unhealthyness.
Peace,
Cb4m
PS, that haiku was the best comeback I've seen in a long while.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Thank you for your lovely post, Cannabox! And yes ... outgassing/phthalate poisoning was in the forefront of my mind for my first grow. This time however I am reusing equipment that was proven in the first grow, with a few exceptions.
The tent is cleared of suspicion imo: it performed well the last time, and has had a hot hot summer in the top of a closet to finish "curing out". It is a Secret Jardin DR120. I was more worried with my rDWC experiment about the 1/2" plastic tubing, since I'd read the online reports that a batch of it (from China, wouldn't you know) was implicated in a rash of indoor grow failures, including Federally legal salad crops.
I am convinced that the problem with the two Gimps is congenital, and it seems to be a sensitivity to light. The shaded undergrowth is actually turning into decent, quite green leaves. I've cut 3x sprigs from the two Healthies and Quasi, but so far my cloning mojo is at zero.
First three pics are the Gimp. In the first, some fairly healthy leaves that have been somewhat shaded.
The second image shows how nasty (she?) looks from the top. This is the plant that has not yet shown sex, while (her) three tentmates showed soon after the first topping.
This pic shows the screwy tops, some nice growth underneath, and scorch marks that I think are left over from my misadventure with the plasma light.
Next is Quasi. Healthy underneath,
and less so from above.
Finally, nine attempts at cloning. I am on day nine. No roots and the leaves are dying. It smelled of hay under the humidity dome. Top and bottom rows are from the Healthies; center is from Quasi. I didn't take Gimp cuttings this time. cn
The tent is cleared of suspicion imo: it performed well the last time, and has had a hot hot summer in the top of a closet to finish "curing out". It is a Secret Jardin DR120. I was more worried with my rDWC experiment about the 1/2" plastic tubing, since I'd read the online reports that a batch of it (from China, wouldn't you know) was implicated in a rash of indoor grow failures, including Federally legal salad crops.
I am convinced that the problem with the two Gimps is congenital, and it seems to be a sensitivity to light. The shaded undergrowth is actually turning into decent, quite green leaves. I've cut 3x sprigs from the two Healthies and Quasi, but so far my cloning mojo is at zero.
First three pics are the Gimp. In the first, some fairly healthy leaves that have been somewhat shaded.
The second image shows how nasty (she?) looks from the top. This is the plant that has not yet shown sex, while (her) three tentmates showed soon after the first topping.
This pic shows the screwy tops, some nice growth underneath, and scorch marks that I think are left over from my misadventure with the plasma light.
Next is Quasi. Healthy underneath,
and less so from above.
Finally, nine attempts at cloning. I am on day nine. No roots and the leaves are dying. It smelled of hay under the humidity dome. Top and bottom rows are from the Healthies; center is from Quasi. I didn't take Gimp cuttings this time. cn
cannabox4me
Active Member
Ok, good to see you have already taken it into consideration.
I do recommend removing one to another area though, to see if it perks up at least, it is strange that you should have so many plants that seem so sensitive, I mean why whould a plant not want more light ? But I know how you feel because I have been there myself with "light sensitive" plants, where the undergrowth is healthier than the top, but its just not right.
Trouble is, with only 4 plants its tough to have a control group, perhaps with one of them you could feed store-bought nutes, just at least to make sure you've not overlooked something mineral-wise ?
Also the plants always look water stressed (even the catnip!), you are letting them dry sufficiently before rewatering I hope ? I assume you are, and that it's another part of the mystery.
As a side note, I am awaiting delivery of some Potassium Nitrate, Ca Nitrate, and Mg Nitrate. Can you give advice on best way to store them, I see you made a stock solution, should I consider the same ? I would rather keep them separate though, to add to my base as needed/experimenting.
cb4m
I do recommend removing one to another area though, to see if it perks up at least, it is strange that you should have so many plants that seem so sensitive, I mean why whould a plant not want more light ? But I know how you feel because I have been there myself with "light sensitive" plants, where the undergrowth is healthier than the top, but its just not right.
Trouble is, with only 4 plants its tough to have a control group, perhaps with one of them you could feed store-bought nutes, just at least to make sure you've not overlooked something mineral-wise ?
Also the plants always look water stressed (even the catnip!), you are letting them dry sufficiently before rewatering I hope ? I assume you are, and that it's another part of the mystery.
As a side note, I am awaiting delivery of some Potassium Nitrate, Ca Nitrate, and Mg Nitrate. Can you give advice on best way to store them, I see you made a stock solution, should I consider the same ? I would rather keep them separate though, to add to my base as needed/experimenting.
cb4m
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Oh wow ... you're doing salt ferts? We should talk!!
I store mine in the hardware-store buckets. A 5-gallon bucket is perfect for a 50-lb bag. But as I have grown old, i find using 2-gallon buckets with the snap lids is more convenient.
To complete your salt fert lineup (if that is what you are doing) you'll want magnesium sulfate (Epsom), calcium sulfate dihydrate ("Solution-grade" gypsum) and monopotassium phosphate. Then prepare for headaches when compounding the micros.
I have not made individual stock solutions of my macronutes. But I did prepare a big 100-liter tub of veg mix to spec: (ppm)
N 200, P 75, K 250, Ca 200, Mg 60, S 112. This is with calcium and mag sulfates, calcium and potassium nitrates, and potassium monophosphate.
I am hoping to be able to do more controlled experiments if I can just get my [impolite word] clones to root! It's so stew pit. My first try at cloning in early '01 was like falling off a log. Now I am trying with these and experiencing failure.
While I cannot prove it, I am inclined to blame Nirvana genetics for what I am seeing. Another person I know grew out some Nirvana, a different strain, and experienced much phenotypic diversity typical of "chucked pollen". My next grow will probably not be Nirvana seeds. But in term of strategy, mine currently is "grow the Healthies until i can expect good yield from them, and allow the Gimps to come along for the ride".
But yes; the bottom line is that this grow is handing my ego back to me, severed and on a platter. If only my clones would grow roots, i could salvage some of my vanity. cn
Yes; I like my pots to get light and have erred so far on the side of caution that I've had my Healthies go a bit limp.
I store mine in the hardware-store buckets. A 5-gallon bucket is perfect for a 50-lb bag. But as I have grown old, i find using 2-gallon buckets with the snap lids is more convenient.
To complete your salt fert lineup (if that is what you are doing) you'll want magnesium sulfate (Epsom), calcium sulfate dihydrate ("Solution-grade" gypsum) and monopotassium phosphate. Then prepare for headaches when compounding the micros.
I have not made individual stock solutions of my macronutes. But I did prepare a big 100-liter tub of veg mix to spec: (ppm)
N 200, P 75, K 250, Ca 200, Mg 60, S 112. This is with calcium and mag sulfates, calcium and potassium nitrates, and potassium monophosphate.
I am hoping to be able to do more controlled experiments if I can just get my [impolite word] clones to root! It's so stew pit. My first try at cloning in early '01 was like falling off a log. Now I am trying with these and experiencing failure.
While I cannot prove it, I am inclined to blame Nirvana genetics for what I am seeing. Another person I know grew out some Nirvana, a different strain, and experienced much phenotypic diversity typical of "chucked pollen". My next grow will probably not be Nirvana seeds. But in term of strategy, mine currently is "grow the Healthies until i can expect good yield from them, and allow the Gimps to come along for the ride".
But yes; the bottom line is that this grow is handing my ego back to me, severed and on a platter. If only my clones would grow roots, i could salvage some of my vanity. cn
Yes; I like my pots to get light and have erred so far on the side of caution that I've had my Healthies go a bit limp.
Kite High
Well-Known Member
some genetics I recommend which are solid:
https://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/female-seeds-c99/prod_637.html
https://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/positronics-seeds/cat_73.html
as for cloning I found simple stupid to work best
moisten some soiless peat medium
Dip cut clone end in rooting hormone...RISE CUT TIP OFF WITH RO WATER
Place into medium in quart or larger jar
close the lid
tuck away in far corne of grow room
Forget about it for at least a week
Roots in 7 - 14 days
Almost 90% success rate this way
hope it helps
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I'll have to give the jar method a try.
As for your se'ed reccos ... I have the Female Se'eds C99 on the way (along with some tasty promo se'eds!! The other didn't open to a strain but Positronics' lineup.
As for your se'ed reccos ... I have the Female Se'eds C99 on the way (along with some tasty promo se'eds!! The other didn't open to a strain but Positronics' lineup.
cannabox4me
Active Member
I have 2 boxes of magnesium currently:
1 says "epsom salts" on the from of the packet and has this on the side:
MAGNESIUM SULPHATE
EPSOM SALTS
Magnesium Oxide (MgO)
Soluble in water .................16%(10%Mg)
The other just says "Magnesium" on the front, and on the side it lists its source as kieserite 25+50
- Magnesium Oxide(MgO)
Soluble in water .................25%
- Sulphur Trioxide (SO3)
Soluble in water .................50%
These are the same substance surely ? MgSO4 ? Thing is the epsom salts are easily soluble while the kieserite barely dissolves at all. I thought I would get MgNO3 so I could load up on Mg when needed without throwing out the S ratio.
I also just realised I may already have some CaNO3. Here is the side of the pack:
ANALYSIS
Total Nitrogen (N) .....................15.5%
Nitric Nitrogen .....................14.3%
Ammoniacal N .......................1.2%
Calcium Oxide (CaO) ...................26.0%
Calcium .....................................18.6%
In terms of P I have a box of superphosphate
SINGLE SUPERPHOSPHATE
Phosphorus Pentoxide (P2O5)
P2O5 soluble neutral ammonium citrate ............17.5% (7.6%P)
P2O5 soluble in water ....................................16.5% (7.1%P)
But I am not too fussed about pushing the P too much.
I also have some pre-mixed store-bought salts and nutes, which i use as a base, and push about a bit with tinkering. Thats why I have ordered some KNO3, to push the K again without too much S (as in sulfate of potash) or too much P (as in PK 13/14 or PK 14/15).
Also, a box of trace elements, enough to last a lifetime ! btw, what is it that turns my micro mix green? the copper ?
Cheers for the advice, am tired right now, but I'm sure I will speak to you soon regarding salt mixes.
Peace out,
Cb4me
1 says "epsom salts" on the from of the packet and has this on the side:
MAGNESIUM SULPHATE
EPSOM SALTS
Magnesium Oxide (MgO)
Soluble in water .................16%(10%Mg)
The other just says "Magnesium" on the front, and on the side it lists its source as kieserite 25+50
- Magnesium Oxide(MgO)
Soluble in water .................25%
- Sulphur Trioxide (SO3)
Soluble in water .................50%
These are the same substance surely ? MgSO4 ? Thing is the epsom salts are easily soluble while the kieserite barely dissolves at all. I thought I would get MgNO3 so I could load up on Mg when needed without throwing out the S ratio.
I also just realised I may already have some CaNO3. Here is the side of the pack:
ANALYSIS
Total Nitrogen (N) .....................15.5%
Nitric Nitrogen .....................14.3%
Ammoniacal N .......................1.2%
Calcium Oxide (CaO) ...................26.0%
Calcium .....................................18.6%
In terms of P I have a box of superphosphate
SINGLE SUPERPHOSPHATE
Phosphorus Pentoxide (P2O5)
P2O5 soluble neutral ammonium citrate ............17.5% (7.6%P)
P2O5 soluble in water ....................................16.5% (7.1%P)
But I am not too fussed about pushing the P too much.
I also have some pre-mixed store-bought salts and nutes, which i use as a base, and push about a bit with tinkering. Thats why I have ordered some KNO3, to push the K again without too much S (as in sulfate of potash) or too much P (as in PK 13/14 or PK 14/15).
Also, a box of trace elements, enough to last a lifetime ! btw, what is it that turns my micro mix green? the copper ?
Cheers for the advice, am tired right now, but I'm sure I will speak to you soon regarding salt mixes.
Peace out,
Cb4me
Kite High
Well-Known Member
well thats because all of their items that I have grown were excellent so left it for you to pick your flavor
My favorite of theirs is Claustrum due to the type of high and the great yield
Next up will be their Cum Laude
but all of it is top notch
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Cannabox: I looked up kieserite and it is the mineral monohydrate of magnesium sulfate, probaly all mixed in with more alkaline (oxide, hydroxide, carbonate) impurities ... good for soil but for hydro I'd stick wuth Epsom. The analysis of your Epsom matches what I remember.
Kite - hi!! (couldn't resist) Thanks. I'll study Positronics.
Gave the plants a thorough feeding today ... now that the two Healthies are in big pots, they are growing reasonably well. I set the two Gimps into the far corners of the tray, and they seem to be doing a little better with the reduced light intensity. cn
Kite - hi!! (couldn't resist) Thanks. I'll study Positronics.
Gave the plants a thorough feeding today ... now that the two Healthies are in big pots, they are growing reasonably well. I set the two Gimps into the far corners of the tray, and they seem to be doing a little better with the reduced light intensity. cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Yeah. They have some lime in there but it lasts maybe two weeks, then the medium sours a bit. I've compensated by running my feed all the way to a pH of 6.2. So far the plants are ok with that. cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Planties today. The first two are backlit close-ups of the Gimp, showing the leaves' odd growh habit. keep the light intensity don, and the leaves grow out almost normal. High light intensity (and also the bad light from the plasma lamp) can scorch the interveinal bits, killing them and preventing the leaf from eventually growing out.
Here's the Gimp from above next to H2, my smaller healthy. She's 18 inches from base to crown and a full 24 inches across. Too bad she's shaped like a football and not round or square.
And this is H1, my flagship gal. Note freshly LSTd branch.
The two Healthies basking in some winter sunlight. I think these ladies might be ready for the flip. I'm planning on month's end for that.
cn
Here's the Gimp from above next to H2, my smaller healthy. She's 18 inches from base to crown and a full 24 inches across. Too bad she's shaped like a football and not round or square.
And this is H1, my flagship gal. Note freshly LSTd branch.
The two Healthies basking in some winter sunlight. I think these ladies might be ready for the flip. I'm planning on month's end for that.
cn
I ran it at 6.2-6.3 for years but I now run it at 6.4 with better results. I add 3 3/4 cups of lime per bale and it seems to last the 90 days it needs to.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
A clone is born: Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday, bare and planted in some Happy Frog. This is H1, my big healthy girl.
Finally a filled tent. Note big bounteous H1 in the rear left.
Tomorrow: I change bulbs and flip these babes!
ooo, I'll have to mix flower nutes. Wish me luck.
cn
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday, bare and planted in some Happy Frog. This is H1, my big healthy girl.
Finally a filled tent. Note big bounteous H1 in the rear left.
Tomorrow: I change bulbs and flip these babes!
ooo, I'll have to mix flower nutes. Wish me luck.
cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Yesterday was a big day.
I installed the HPS bulb and went to 12/12. I've timed the light to coincide with daylight. It's the worse choice for temperature evenness, but the better one for security. Light leaks from an MH can be brushed off as coming from a dead-ordinary CFL, but a HPS has a visual signature that screams indoor garden.
The other is that i mixed a 100-liter tub of flowering nute. This is mixed to the following spec:
N 75ppm
P 110
K 134
Ca 200
Mg 45
S 146
with full micros.
Last year my WW from this batch, "Alice", didn't show much stretch. This time I suspect i will experience a lot of stretch, if only for Murphyesque reasons: I don't have as much vertical space available between the tall pots and the raised e&f pan. cn
I installed the HPS bulb and went to 12/12. I've timed the light to coincide with daylight. It's the worse choice for temperature evenness, but the better one for security. Light leaks from an MH can be brushed off as coming from a dead-ordinary CFL, but a HPS has a visual signature that screams indoor garden.
The other is that i mixed a 100-liter tub of flowering nute. This is mixed to the following spec:
N 75ppm
P 110
K 134
Ca 200
Mg 45
S 146
with full micros.
Last year my WW from this batch, "Alice", didn't show much stretch. This time I suspect i will experience a lot of stretch, if only for Murphyesque reasons: I don't have as much vertical space available between the tall pots and the raised e&f pan. cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I flipped them to 12/12 under the HPS on the 19th. Just look at that incipient stretch on H1, my biggest gal.
Here's a top today ... day 6 of 12/12.
Here's a tentful of golden goodness. Most of it is H1 (forward right) and H2 (rear left). Quasi is in the back on the right, and the sad little Gimp is slowly growing in the front left. I'm feeding them a 50/50 of leftover veg nute and newly-mixed flower nute, with the whole mix cut to 900 ppm by adding tap water. tap quality has been outstanding this winter; it came out at 50ppm when I mixed the latest batch.
The Gimp still hasn't shown sex.
Rooted and potted clones in some Happy Frog left over from last year. They're happy under a single 26W CFL. I have two each from H1, H2 and Quasi. I took no Gimp cuts.
cn
Here's a top today ... day 6 of 12/12.
Here's a tentful of golden goodness. Most of it is H1 (forward right) and H2 (rear left). Quasi is in the back on the right, and the sad little Gimp is slowly growing in the front left. I'm feeding them a 50/50 of leftover veg nute and newly-mixed flower nute, with the whole mix cut to 900 ppm by adding tap water. tap quality has been outstanding this winter; it came out at 50ppm when I mixed the latest batch.
The Gimp still hasn't shown sex.
Rooted and potted clones in some Happy Frog left over from last year. They're happy under a single 26W CFL. I have two each from H1, H2 and Quasi. I took no Gimp cuts.
cn
PeyoteReligion
Well-Known Member
Victory is in sight! It's the final stretch! Lol