New Cob LEDs vs Hortilux eye super hps, am I missing something?

Hi all,

This is my first post on rollitup so go easy on me hehe. I would have posted in the 400+ page noob led thread but that thing is way too big for me to navigate. I've been reading up on LED vs HPS but I haven't been able to make heads or tales of it. It seems to me like the new cobs (cree cbx and the new vero's) aren't more efficient than top hps bulbs when measuring lumens. Let me explain.

I'm planning on building a DIY cob using 6 Vero 29's (nominal power) to replace my sun system/430 watt hortilux super hps setup.

The Vero panel is going to give me about 60,000 lumens at 480 watts and according to the horilux page, their 430 watt hps bulb gets around 58,000 lumens. Damn, that seems like less efficiency to me!

Can someone explain to me what makes led's better? I know they have more usable spectrum but is that going to make my Vero panel beat out my HPS setup by a noticeable margin?

Thanks guys

mrbubble said:

Hi all,

This is my first post on rollitup so go easy on me hehe. I would have posted in the 400+ page noob led thread but that thing is way too big for me to navigate. I've been reading up on LED vs HPS but I haven't been able to make heads or tales of it. It seems to me like the new cobs (cree cbx and the new vero's) aren't more efficient than top hps bulbs when measuring lumens. Let me explain.

I'm planning on building a DIY cob using 6 Vero 29's (nominal power) to replace my sun system/430 watt hortilux super hps setup.

The Vero panel is going to give me about 60,000 lumens at 480 watts and according to the horilux page, their 430 watt hps bulb gets around 58,000 lumens. Damn, that seems like less efficiency to me!

Can someone explain to me what makes led's better? I know they have more usable spectrum but is that going to make my Vero panel beat out my HPS setup by a noticeable margin?

Thanks guys

Click to expand...

CXBs are slightly more efficient when run at low current, like half normal or less. Off the shelf fixtures, like high bays or floods, are usually around 90-100 lumens per watt, while HPS can be 140. However, to find out how much of their light is usable for plants you have to use a conversion factor to get the PPFD from a lux (lumens per sq meter) output. This pdf has some of the conversion factors.

58,000 lux (58 klux) x the factor for HPS, 10.9, = 632.2 PPFD. The factor for warm white LED is 14.2, so that x 60 klux= 852 PPFD. That's 1.35 as much as the HPS, 35% more usable light and you only used 12% more wattage. What that works out to idk, something like 20% more PPFD per watt. Of course, they cost a lot more than 20% more than the same wattage of HPS so you have to decide if it's worth it to you all things considered.

Interestingly, the multiplier for mixed red/blue LEDs is 29.3, so about twice as much PPFD per klux as warm whites. People should keep that in mind when comparing lux readings from different brands of LED lights. Red and blue just aren't as visible to the eye, so the lumen numbers are lower than with white when using the same wattage.

mrbubble said:

Hi all,

This is my first post on rollitup so go easy on me hehe. I would have posted in the 400+ page noob led thread but that thing is way too big for me to navigate. I've been reading up on LED vs HPS but I haven't been able to make heads or tales of it. It seems to me like the new cobs (cree cbx and the new vero's) aren't more efficient than top hps bulbs when measuring lumens. Let me explain.

I'm planning on building a DIY cob using 6 Vero 29's (nominal power) to replace my sun system/430 watt hortilux super hps setup.

The Vero panel is going to give me about 60,000 lumens at 480 watts and according to the horilux page, their 430 watt hps bulb gets around 58,000 lumens. Damn, that seems like less efficiency to me!

Can someone explain to me what makes led's better? I know they have more usable spectrum but is that going to make my Vero panel beat out my HPS setup by a noticeable margin?

Thanks guys

Click to expand...

ill try to build upon what bobcajun said

HPS
- your 58000 lumen bulb will quickly drop to 90-95% of that before needing replaced within a year
-reflector will eat up an easy 10% more of that
-air cooled reflector glass will eat up another 4%
-HPS has a lot of IR which does nothing but heat up your room
-very nature of intense point source light almost always means part of your garden gets too much light and others not enough

LEDs:
-apart from a well designed led setup being more efficient, it has a more usable spectrum
-pretty flat in lumen maintenance, 90% after many years
-directed right at canopy, any lenses or reflectors used are minimal
-modular and can get 100% uniform coverage over any area regardless of size
-bob was conservative on saying cobs are "a little" more efficient.they can be A LOT more efficient than hps at about the $2-3/watt cost. like 65-70% of light usable vs 42% for hps

watt for watt 600W of Cobs run soft will put out 400 W of light and 200 watts of heat
a 1000W hps will put out the same 400-450 W of light and 600W of heat! and it cost you even more watts in fans and AC to mitigate that 600W of heat.

1 gpy is a 'good' yield for hps and the very best approach 1.5

cobbers are topping out at 1.7-2 gpw and the tech is going up by about 5-10% efficiency/year and dropping in price by the same amount or more

DE HPS is the same tech its been since its inception. maybe a total of 10-20% better after all these years due to better bulb spectrums

The lamp he's talking about building will be around %40 efficient. so it should provide just over 63,000 lumens at 50C. Run it cooler and you get more light. The 430w bulb replaced every 12 months assuming that's the LM90 period will provide an average of 55,000 lumens. With proper optics, around 2% loss for the cobs, maybe %10 for the bulb. So Cobs at temp in low 40s, 62,000 lumens, bulb about 50,000 lumens, cobs providing 129 LPW, bulb providing 116 LPW.

That being said, it is possible to get more efficiency from that wattage but for the price and considering the cost of bulbs over 5 years it's still a better deal than the HID.

Thanks for the helpful info. Bobcajun, the PPFD conversion chart is exactly what I needed to compare LED and HPS apples to apples.

Bobbyg and Rahz, I think you guys convinced me on the maintenance/heat/longevity argument for a COB fixture.

After some more internet snooping I found that the new veros are coming out in June and I wanna get my hands on em. I haven't been in the LED scene long enough to know what price and availability is like for a new product drop. Do you guys have any idea when I can actually buy those chip and what they'll cost?

The last roll out was pretty quick, no price changes, so hopefully they'll be available in July for the same price as the current version.

Rahz said:

The last roll out was pretty quick, no price changes, so hopefully they'll be available in July for the same price as the current version.

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Sweet, if I can get my shit together by then I'll try to post a build and grow journal for those new vero's. I feel like there's a lot of inquisition for the Vero's because of their price point, but no journals on em.

I've used them myself and couldn't be happier. CXB came out and then some good price drops via Kingbrite, Cutter and PLC so Vero took a back seat but if the stats on the new version are correct they will be a good option for sure. I've been itching to get an Apogee MQ-500, either that or an SQ-520 so I'll be able to get some accurate comparisons when they are released.

mrbubble said:

I haven't been in the LED scene long enough to know what price and availability is like for a new product drop. Do you guys have any idea when I can actually buy those chip and what they'll cost?

Click to expand...

id advise diving into the forums ton of info here, welcome aboard

some of my most favorite threads

https://www.rollitup.org/t/top-bin-cob-comparison.891010/
(that one turns south in the end but theres a part 2)

https://www.rollitup.org/t/matching-drivers-and-cobs.883866/

www.rollitup.org/t/cxb3590-1500w.878136/

all the build threads
all the journal threads
gromau5 and greengenes you tubes

lotta smart people around here

Rahz said:

I've used them myself and couldn't be happier. CXB came out and then some good price drops via Kingbrite, Cutter and PLC so Vero took a back seat but if the stats on the new version are correct they will be a good option for sure. I've been itching to get an Apogee MQ-500, either that or an SQ-520 so I'll be able to get some accurate comparisons when they are released.

Click to expand...

Very cool Rahz, I'll check out your posts.

BOBBY_G said:

id advise diving into the forums ton of info here, welcome aboard

some of my most favorite threads

https://www.rollitup.org/t/top-bin-cob-comparison.891010/
(that one turns south in the end but theres a part 2)

https://www.rollitup.org/t/matching-drivers-and-cobs.883866/

www.rollitup.org/t/cxb3590-1500w.878136/

all the build threads
all the journal threads
gromau5 and greengenes you tubes

lotta smart people around here

Click to expand...

And Bobby_G, thanks for the pointers. I've already watched the gromau5 video series, wicked comprehensive tutorials.

Hi I am getting new lights tommorw and I bought the 600w motherships from heavenbright

I am buying a hps light should I run two 400w hps lights in veg and put the heavenbrights in the flower room and crank them too 600w
or should I

get two 600w hps lights and use the heavenbrights at 300-400w in the veg room please help asap

I wouldn't say the IR from an hid bulb is "useless"..........some growers/climates take advantage of it

How much efficient is 250W HPS dual spectrum? 30? 40?