New grow room Autopot grow

ryan s

Well-Known Member
I hung the humidity sensor to the humidifier in the top corner of the tent and the humidity went up on my thermo/hygrometer. The VPD is nearly perfect.

20230825_185453.jpg20230825_185516.jpg

Now I am waiting for the plants to dry back and recover from transplant. Hopefully next week I will start to see some vigorous growth.
 

Kola_Kreator

Well-Known Member
The mother nature CO2 generator is not suitable for maintaining optimal levels in a sealed grow room. Do you have a CO2 metre to monitor the levels? To run sealed you need bottles at minimum or an actual generator is better and you need to have a CO2 controller to regulate the ppm
 

ryan s

Well-Known Member
The mother nature CO2 generator is not suitable for maintaining optimal levels in a sealed grow room. Do you have a CO2 metre to monitor the levels? To run sealed you need bottles at minimum or an actual generator is better and you need to have a CO2 controller to regulate the ppm
Thanks for that advice!

Can you point me to any good ones I should consider buying?
 

Kola_Kreator

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that advice!

Can you point me to any good ones I should consider buying?
Trolmaster are the standard in grow room controllers. You can buy a basic one just for CO2 or you can get something more advanced and set it up to do the humidify and temp too. For the bottles you can usually get them a lot cheaper at home brew stores than the hydro shops.
 

ryan s

Well-Known Member
Trolmaster are the standard in grow room controllers. You can buy a basic one just for CO2 or you can get something more advanced and set it up to do the humidify and temp too. For the bottles you can usually get them a lot cheaper at home brew stores than the hydro shops.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I'm looking into the Hydro X series.

Screenshot_20230825_202310_Amazon Shopping.jpg

I believe I need at least these three. What else am I missing?
 

ryan s

Well-Known Member
That's pretty much all you need. Just make sure that the controller uses fuzzy logic. It's basically the programming which lets the controller dose the room without overdosing it.
The fuzzy logic controllers all run about 3-4x the cost. I think I will go with the ac infinity co2 controller for now.
 

ryan s

Well-Known Member
I ordered an A/c Infinity CO2 controller and regulator. I'm just now realizing that the two CO2 tanks I had were worth 600 dollars each. They got "thrown away," I believe. Well, another lesson.

The growgeneration nearest me rents CO2 tanks I believe, so I will be getting my gas there.

Thanks for all the input!
 

StoneDHedgE

Well-Known Member
There's no advantage to a fuzzy logic controller with a simple, linear system, like maintaining a target CO2 level.
A PID controller works about as well as you could hope for.
Don't tell that to my rice maker. Imho CO2 in small/medium tent grows is a waste of time and money. Nail every other aspect of growing first.
 

Kola_Kreator

Well-Known Member
I ordered an A/c Infinity CO2 controller and regulator. I'm just now realizing that the two CO2 tanks I had were worth 600 dollars each. They got "thrown away," I believe. Well, another lesson.

The growgeneration nearest me rents CO2 tanks I believe, so I will be getting my gas there.

Thanks for all the input!
Try a home brew shop. They sell/rent CO2 tanks without the grow market markup. A lot of tool shops will sell them too.

The 15kg bottles should be around 100 bucks or under to buy full. Then about 40 per refill.
 

Billy the Mountain

Well-Known Member
Don't tell that to my rice maker. Imho CO2 in small/medium tent grows is a waste of time and money. Nail every other aspect of growing first.
I know nothing about rice makers but have reasonable knowledge and experience writing control system software.
Again, a fuzzy logic algorithm has no benefit in a simple linear system.
A PID controller (Proportional Integral Derivative) continually calculates and error value (target - current) and self-adjusts to compensate.
The P term is the current error, the I term is cumulative error, and the D term is the rate of change of the error.
Tuning the PID terms can take a bit of trial and error but it's a proven and effective algorithm widely used in industry in similar applications.
 
Last edited:

ryan s

Well-Known Member
Add it to the list of things I'll be testing in this grow. I'm sure it will be a big help no matter what. If it goes too high I can open the door and let CO2 out and I'll be keeping the CO2 constant so I don't think it will fluctuate too much when the lights are on anyway.
 

Kola_Kreator

Well-Known Member
I know nothing about rice makers but have reasonable knowledge and experience writing control system software.
Again, a fuzzy logic algorithm has no benefit in a simple linear system.
A PID controller (Proportional Integral Derivative) continually calculates and error value (target - current) and self-adjusts to compensate.
The P term is the current error, the I term is cumulative error, and the D term is the rate of change of the error.
Tuning the PID terms can take a bit of trial and error but it's a proven and effective algorithm widely used in industry in similar applications.
You know a lot more than I do about control system software. Will the PID controller learn and tune itself to keep things stable?

I always thought fuzzy logic was basically what you are describing when talking about PID. What advantage if any does fuzzy logic have over PID?

Do all grow room control systems run PID at the minimum? Some of the cheaper prices control systems don't state which software they run.
 

Billy the Mountain

Well-Known Member
You know a lot more than I do about control system software. Will the PID controller learn and tune itself to keep things stable?

I always thought fuzzy logic was basically what you are describing when talking about PID. What advantage if any does fuzzy logic have over PID?

Do all grow room control systems run PID at the minimum? Some of the cheaper prices control systems don't state which software they run.
I would guess a PID controller is used in most all commercial CO2 controllers and would be surprised if any of them used a true fuzzy logic system.
Fuzzy logic controllers are used in more complex scenarios where there's more "grey area"; things like medical diagnosis, image processing, stock trading, etc.; situations where there's a number of variables to be factored and there's more noise in the system. Controlling a relay based on a sensor input isn't one of them.

It's self-tuning in the sense that a PID controller will modify it's output to minimize error, but it's P, I, and D parameters are defined by the user.
You can tune how quickly it responds, amount of overshoot and ringing, and sensitivity; basically a compromise between speed and accuracy, but it doesn't normally change dynamically at runtime.

Hope that helps


Basic PID algorithm:
1693096578134.png
 

Kola_Kreator

Well-Known Member
I would guess a PID controller is used in most all commercial CO2 controllers and would be surprised if any of them used a true fuzzy logic system.
Fuzzy logic controllers are used in more complex scenarios where there's more "grey area"; things like medical diagnosis, image processing, stock trading, etc.; situations where there's a number of variables to be factored and there's more noise in the system. Controlling a relay based on a sensor input isn't one of them.

It's self-tuning in the sense that a PID controller will modify it's output to minimize error, but it's P, I, and D parameters are defined by the user.
You can tune how quickly it responds, amount of overshoot and ringing, and sensitivity; basically a compromise between speed and accuracy, but it doesn't normally change dynamically at runtime.

Hope that helps


Basic PID algorithm:
View attachment 5321465
Good explanation but poor understanding on my part. My grow shop only carries the trolmaster units which apparently use fuzzy logic. I can pick one up that does temp RH and CO2 for about 600. It works for because the grow shop will sort things that day out if there's any issues down the track.
 

Billy the Mountain

Well-Known Member
Good explanation but poor understanding on my part. My grow shop only carries the trolmaster units which apparently use fuzzy logic. I can pick one up that does temp RH and CO2 for about 600. It works for because the grow shop will sort things that day out if there's any issues down the track.
I'm sure it works well but I still wouldn't be wowed by the fuzzy logic claim; I'd bet big it's just fuzzy marketing lingo.
The price seems exhorbitant, but I'm just a hobbyist with a few tents and like to build things.

From their product description:
a ) If the Fuzzy Logic function disabled, the unit will OPEN the output of CO2 device when the current CO2 level is less than setpoint, and CLOSE the output when the current CO2 level is greater than CO2 setpoint plus deaband value.
b ) if the Fuzzy Logic function enabled, the unit will fully OPEN the output of CO2 device when the current CO2 level is much lower than teh setpoint. When the CO2 level is closing to the setpoint, the unit will calculate and send PWM signal to control the output of CO2 device. The PWM cycle is 5 seconds.


What they just described in b) is a PID controller, i.e. the output is used to vary a PWM signal, and not a fuzzy logic controller.
I use the exact same method to control a resistive heater for my alcohol extractor. The PID controller lowers the PWM duty cycle as the target is approached. Once the target temp is reached, it doesn't vary by more than 0.25C, even thought the heater is either fully on or fully off.
 

Kola_Kreator

Well-Known Member
I'm sure it works well but I still wouldn't be wowed by the fuzzy logic claim; I'd bet big it's just fuzzy marketing lingo.
The price seems exhorbitant, but I'm just a hobbyist with a few tents and like to build things.

From their product description:
a ) If the Fuzzy Logic function disabled, the unit will OPEN the output of CO2 device when the current CO2 level is less than setpoint, and CLOSE the output when the current CO2 level is greater than CO2 setpoint plus deaband value.
b ) if the Fuzzy Logic function enabled, the unit will fully OPEN the output of CO2 device when the current CO2 level is much lower than teh setpoint. When the CO2 level is closing to the setpoint, the unit will calculate and send PWM signal to control the output of CO2 device. The PWM cycle is 5 seconds.


What they just described in b) is a PID controller, i.e. the output is used to vary a PWM signal.
I use the exact same method to control a resistive heater for my alcohol extractor. The PID controller lowers the PWM duty cycle as the target is approached. Once the target temp is reached, it doesn't vary by more than 0.25C, even thought the heater is either fully on or fully off.
Probably is PID then
 
Top