New To LED

A

az2000

Well-Known Member
nomofatum said:
Maybe 5 years from now they will come down to a reasonable price, or go up in quality enough to be worth it.
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Hmm. T5HO runs optimally at 40w/sq ft. Costs $44 per sq. ft. A Chinese import requires about the same w/sq ft, maybe a little more, and costs ~$40 per sq. ft.

Move up to an A51 RW-75 and you need about 30w/sq ft, costs about $73 per sq. ft. 30% more efficient (a long term savings) and 40% more expensive.

So, seems to me we're at the point of being near equal now. COBs are considerably more efficient and reaching the market now.

I don't think it will be five years.

nomofatum said:
You can tell by looking closely at the emitter, you can also tell by reading the reviews.
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It will be interesting to hear other DIYers explain why they don't use Epistar.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
Hmm. T5HO runs optimally at 40w/sq ft. Costs $44 per sq. ft. A Chinese import requires about the same w/sq ft, maybe a little more, and costs ~$40 per sq. ft.

Move up to an A51 RW-75 and you need about 30w/sq ft, costs about $73 per sq. ft. 30% more efficient (a long term savings) and 40% more expensive.

So, seems to me we're at the point of being near equal now. COBs are considerably more efficient and reaching the market now.

I don't think it will be five years.



It will be interesting to hear other DIYers explain why they don't use Epistar.
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I can tell you why they don't use Epistar. Cree makes better LEDs. They want the best of the best. They don't even bother looking and 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best. Best only beats #2 by 10%, #3 by 15%, #4 20%. But best costs about 5 times as much when you are buying the chips directly. #2,3,4 are actually better bang for the buck until you get long term enough to pay off the investment.

Most people want the best results, bang for the buck is either way down their list or not even considered. They have the mistaken notion that you need the best LED for the best result, that isn't true, you just need a fraction more of the lesser LEDs to make up the difference.
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
nomofatum said:
you just need a fraction more of the lesser LEDs to make up the difference.
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That's true, but involves a time variable. An LED user can either pay more at the beginning to save more over time, or pay less at the beginning to pay more over time.

There are no free rides. In an area with high electricity costs, or more scrutiny of heat signatures, or heat-management issues during the summer, are other variables that can influence how an individual weighs the initial cost of a fixture versus the cost of operation (replacement versus cost-effective repair options, etc.).

Chinese import fixtures don't seem to offer a winning calculus. For the money they cost, their reliability, heat generation (inefficiency), ceramic metal halide is usually recommended as a better light until the individual can invest in a better light.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
That's true, but involves a time variable. An LED user can either pay more at the beginning to save more over time, or pay less at the beginning to pay more over time.

There are no free rides. In an area with high electricity costs, or more scrutiny of heat signatures, or heat-management issues during the summer, are other variables that can influence how an individual weighs the initial cost of a fixture versus the cost of operation (replacement versus cost-effective repair options, etc.).

Chinese import fixtures don't seem to offer a winning calculus. For the money they cost, their reliability, heat generation (inefficiency), ceramic metal halide is usually recommended as a better light until the individual can invest in a better light.
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Agreed, however I expect with LEDs they will improve so much so quickly over the next decade that you won't want to keep any of the options available now as a long term option. 2-3 years from now it will be hard not to upgrade. You have to do your math and see if you will get the savings you need to justify the expense for a reasonable timeframe, IMHO 3 years.

T5 vs LED may be getting close, but LED vs HPS/MH in the upper wattages isn't so close.
 
uzerneims

uzerneims

Well-Known Member
Jimdamick said:
Fuck you, you ork.(lol) How many lights, that ain't done with 100 watts LED(nice bud)
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hehe :))
there is @Bueno Time , who grew with two CXA 3050 - yielded ~1+gpw :))) only with ~100W :p


And my feeling is, that in next five years it will be sooo cheap to buy AB 3070 bins, that easily i could run them at 350mA, and so i have 50% PAR light, not heat!
imagine that!
 
T

THE KONASSURE

Well-Known Member
nomofatum said:
T5 vs LED may be getting close, but LED vs HPS/MH in the upper wattages isn't so close.
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I`m not sure that`s true if you run 4 x 300w 1W led panels they normally draw around 180 to 200w each maybe a bit less so in reality you can run 4 of them vs 1 x 600w hps as the ballast always uses up some power and most people have digital ballasts running at "660w"

under them 4 led panels you could get a really nice sea of green going you`d need a bit more work then growing a few tall bitch`s under the hps but you`d get more yield if you knew how to

Also I`ve seen side by side grows with hps vs led yield seems to be pretty even now sometimes the leds win sometimes the hids but hps is very efficient for how old they are I mean even MH can`t touch it for yield

The big factor I`ve seen when people get clones tested is the led plants always have more terpenoids then the hps plants

The hps could be cooking off some terp`s or may lack the correct spectrum balance to produce them ?
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
THE KONASSURE said:
I`m not sure that`s true if you run 4 x 300w 1W led panels they normally draw around 180 to 200w each maybe a bit less so in reality you can run 4 of them vs 1 x 600w hps as the ballast always uses up some power and most people have digital ballasts running at "660w"

under them 4 led panels you could get a really nice sea of green going you`d need a bit more work then growing a few tall bitch`s under the hps but you`d get more yield if you knew how to

Also I`ve seen side by side grows with hps vs led yield seems to be pretty even now sometimes the leds win sometimes the hids but hps is very efficient for how old they are I mean even MH can`t touch it for yield

The big factor I`ve seen when people get clones tested is the led plants always have more terpenoids then the hps plants

The hps could be cooking off some terp`s or may lack the correct spectrum balance to produce them ?
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Too many ways to compare, this makes it easy to spin whatever way you want. I'm only looking at lumens, so I can do an apples to apples. The form factor they come in makes them more or less effective at specific techniques , but in the end if you do it all right on each setup they should put out similarly if they have similar lumen output in our target wavelength ranges. (Yes, lumens are not what plants use, but they are related heavily and are the best measure we usually have across bulb/emitter types.)
 
T

THE KONASSURE

Well-Known Member
the trouble with lumens and even par is that they don`t tell you how much light your actually going to get onto your plants

One big benefit of leds is there are easy to aim as they only emit light in one direction

The other benefit is that you can turn them on and off and on without having to wait for them to cool down (induction, cfl and flora`s all have that benefit too)
 
legitroller

legitroller

Well-Known Member
Seeing everyone's input actually has me wanting to build my own an the panel I have already ill keep for now or ill sell it maybe my local hydro store can take it off my hands

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Rollitup mobile app
 
REALSTYLES

REALSTYLES

Well-Known Member
Jimdamick said:
Fucking LED SUCKS. Sell it now to some other UNINFORMED FOOL THAT DOESN'T BELIEVE THE BULLSHIT and get some VHO t5's, if you are worried about heat or height. Been there, did it, and I would never go back to that useless shit to bloom with. It will work if you are worried about energy cost's, but that is the only thing it is good for. Come on LED boys, show me some bud, and, maybe a cola will be as big as a midget's dick I will bet on that ( unless he have a Holmes). SHOW ME BIG BUD ON LED. NEVER FUCKING HAPPEN.
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Wrong I'll be flowering these on Christmas eve

SAM_0095.JPG SAM_0099.JPG
1922watts covering a 4' x 10' area and it's 48.05w/f2

Jimdamick said:
How many plants, 20? That watt per shit is a joke, especially LED with packed plants If you do one plant under optimum conditions, that is a heavy producer genetically( medium quality herb) yes you can get weight. The ONLY way to get serious weight, is HID lighting. That is my opinion, you ork motherfucker.
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Gpw is to give you an idea if you're growing productively or wasting your time. I use to grow with HPS and MH but no more. I sold my last 4 Galaxy 1K digital ballast 2 weeks ago. Bought my first Led 11-3-2013.
 
SupraSPL

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Jimdamick said:
How many plants, 20? That watt per shit is a joke, especially LED with packed plants If you do one plant under optimum conditions, that is a heavy producer genetically( medium quality herb) yes you can get weight. The ONLY way to get serious weight, is HID lighting.
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That is some expensive dogma. I am not sure where the idea that gpw has no purpose came from, but it was not from someone good at math. Another way you could look at it is grams/heat. Heat is a major limitation for indoor grows. Yield is a lot more important than electrical use, but the heat will stop you from increasing yield. The fact is, HID is on its way out, by the millions.

This 4.5 foot tall lady was flowered with 54 LED Watts for 8 weeks.
IMG_0078b CCK2.JPG
IMG_0081b Sharp2.JPG
 
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stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
SupraSPL said:
That is some expensive dogma. I am not sure where the idea that gpw has no purpose came from, but it was not from someone good at math. Another way you could look at it is grams/heat. Heat is a major limitation for indoor grows. Yield is a lot more important than electrical use, but the heat will stop you from increasing yield. The fact is, HID is on its way out, by the millions.
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A rather "old-fashioned " dogma also ,I should add ...

HIDs are killed already by COB solid state lights ..
In every aspect possible ...

What remains to be seen ,is the Solid state tech evolving ...
COBS with UV excitation dies ..
With efficiencies over 40% at 2A ... (~80 W )
With service lives of 50+ full grow cycles ...
And more ...

You can just forget the "Discharge " thing ..
Is " Diode" by now ,baby ...

Zed's dead,babe ...
Along with Mr."Discharge" ...

It's "High Intensity Diode " ..
Like ..
Chip-on -Board ...

Funny ..It makes a rhyme ...

So long ,HPS-hippies ...
You belong to history..
You're just not aware of it ...
Yet ...

Cheers.
To Zed.
 
Jimdamick

Jimdamick

Well-Known Member
SupraSPL said:
That is some expensive dogma. I am not sure where the idea that gpw has no purpose came from, but it was not from someone good at math. Another way you could look at it is grams/heat. Heat is a major limitation for indoor grows. Yield is a lot more important than electrical use, but the heat will stop you from increasing yield. The fact is, HID is on its way out, by the millions.

This 4.5 foot tall lady was flowered with 54 LED Watts for 8 weeks.
View attachment 3317729
View attachment 3317737
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Excellent plant, (even though the image is probably fucked with) and show's exactly what my point is. Quick question? How MANY plants can you grow with that fixture ? 1? Yea, that's about right. No spread at all with LED, argue me that. I will grow 8 plants with the same wattage, using HID. That is a big difference in output of product, which is what I want.
 
SupraSPL

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Thanks, I edited the photo with digital photo professional. It was shot in RAW, sharpened by 2 points and then converted to jpeg. Sometimes I use HDR (high dynamic range processing) so the photo shows more realistic dynamic range (light and dark). The human eye can see more dynamic range than even the best cameras, so HDR is a much more realistic representation. Despite that, they really arent that great of photos, the plant is more impressive in real life and that particular lady smells even better than it looks.

That plant was 1 of 12 in that tent. The total wattage was 650W so each plant got an average of 54W. Here is another from the same room, this one smells even better than its sister
IMG_0067a CCK5.JPG IMG_0065a CCK5.JPG IMG_0065c CCK5.JPG IMG_0076a CCK5.JPG
 
PSUAGRO.

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
nomofatum said:
I can tell you why they don't use Epistar. Cree makes better LEDs. They want the best of the best. They don't even bother looking and 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best. Best only beats #2 by 10%, #3 by 15%, #4 20%. But best costs about 5 times as much when you are buying the chips directly. #2,3,4 are actually better bang for the buck until you get long term enough to pay off the investment.

Most people want the best results, bang for the buck is either way down their list or not even considered. They have the mistaken notion that you need the best LED for the best result, that isn't true, you just need a fraction more of the lesser LEDs to make up the difference.
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With your thinking we should just buy updated epi-whatever ufo's every year. The fact that experienced led growers don't use them should tell you everything.......but WTF do they know right? Lol

Like how your just making up #s too......it's cute

You want semi disposable light sources?......then stick with hid bulbs ; better efficiencies ;-)

Using Low quality diodes/mcpcb-heatsink/drivers is a great idea when growing expensive flowering annuals.....don't think anything could go wrong in this scenario!sarc....

nomofatum said:
Agreed, however I expect with LEDs they will improve so much so quickly over the next decade that you won't want to keep any of the options available now as a long term option. 2-3 years from now it will be hard not to upgrade. You have to do your math and see if you will get the savings you need to justify the expense for a reasonable timeframe, IMHO 3 years.

T5 vs LED may be getting close, but LED vs HPS/MH in the upper wattages isn't so close.
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So your going to be buying cheap/mid grade electronics your whole life waiting for the next big thing?

My pioneer kuro is still better than most of the tv's out now......IMO
 
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