SocataSmoker
Well-Known Member
All you need, right here.
Accurate and logical reasoning.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0112/eagar/eagar-0112.html
"New World Order" conspiracy theory
- Thread starter Zeplike
- Start date
All you need, right here.
Accurate and logical reasoning.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0112/eagar/eagar-0112.html
doc111
Well-Known Member
Never said I didn't buy into secret societies. I know plenty of freemasons. I know that secret societies exist but I don't believe that secret societies are trying to take over the world. Like I said in an earlier post, I am older than most of the people on this site and this conspiracy has been around as long as I can remember. When are they gonna make their move and take over the world? As for 9/11; what do I know, I was only there. And the fact that I am propably as educated in the physics of building collapse as any structural engineer means that I do know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry to disappoint all you conspiracy lovers but most of the crap being put out about 9/11 conspiracy is utter b.s. Have there been certain things covered up or mishandled? Sure but that's to be expected with this kind of thing. Our govt. is incompetent so I just don't see them pulling off a cover up of this magnitude. I've studied this topic since shortly after 9/11 and I've not found any convincing evidence that can't be explained logically. This type of collapse is unprecedented but that doesn't mean it was planned. I was there and smelled the jetfuel and saw pieces of aircraft. I saw pieces of body parts and smelled the horrific odor of rotting flesh. It's nightmarish what I experienced and I hope nobody ever has to see or experience what I saw and experienced. I try to keep an open mind about things but some of the allegations being made are completely false and ridiculous (No offense).
More words being put into my mouth. Show me where I say that I back up any govt. Governments lie. Get used to it bro. It's not right but it's a fact of life. Look at who runs govt. It's politicians and what do they do? They lie.
Zig Zag Zane
Well-Known Member
well, your still only addressing 9/11 like thats all im speaking about, and the government hasn't pulled off some huge impossible cover-up, because obviously people like me are exposing it, and we aren't a minority. When you said you were older it made sense to me. Older generations have trouble seeing these things for what they really are. They've been too conformed in this system for so many years, got the false education, and have always just followed the masses. I know because I try to enlighten my mother about history a bit, and all she wants to do is watch desperate housewives. Oh and also its realllly easy to make it sound ridiculous when you say "they want to take over the world" like it's that black and white...like they are villains on a cartoon or something. Well they dont need to take over the world because they already control it...all they really want now is a one world government at this point and to destroy the USA as we know it, and if you haven't looked around, they're doing a damn good job......look Doc11, you really wanna get educated on this stuff, go pick up a book called "Behold a Pale Horse" by William Cooper, its a very serious book and it covers everything. I just dont think your grasping how big this picture is. I can tell you have the metality that conspiracy theorists like myself just want to think we know something others dont and are boosting our egos by spreading the word about this stuff, but that isn't it at all. I can just see how power really operates now, and the pure tragedy governments, and TPTB have caused forever, and all im doing is trying to teach. You want to think your above that. So since I can tell your not going change no matter how much evidence I provide, which I am, i'll just leave you with some quotes by very powerful people to ponder:
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." - Mayer Amschel Rothschild, l790
"I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire, ...The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire. And I control the money supply." -Baron Nathan Mayer Rothschild, 1815
"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent."- Statement by Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member James Warburg to The Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17th, l950
"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order [referring to the 1991 LA Riot]. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond [i.e., an "extraterrestrial" invasion], whether real or *promulgated* [emphasis mine], that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this *scenario*, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government." - Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991
"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries." - David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991.
"In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty wasn't such a great idea after all." -Strobe Talbot, President Clinton's Deputy Secretary of State, as quoted in Time, July 20th, l992
"For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - David Rockefeller's Memoirs (Random House, New York, 2002)
I COULD GO ON ALL DAY.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." - Mayer Amschel Rothschild, l790
"I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire, ...The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire. And I control the money supply." -Baron Nathan Mayer Rothschild, 1815
"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent."- Statement by Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member James Warburg to The Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17th, l950
"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order [referring to the 1991 LA Riot]. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond [i.e., an "extraterrestrial" invasion], whether real or *promulgated* [emphasis mine], that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this *scenario*, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government." - Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991
"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries." - David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991.
"In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty wasn't such a great idea after all." -Strobe Talbot, President Clinton's Deputy Secretary of State, as quoted in Time, July 20th, l992
"For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - David Rockefeller's Memoirs (Random House, New York, 2002)
I COULD GO ON ALL DAY.
doc111
Well-Known Member
Never said I didn't buy into secret societies. I know plenty of freemasons. I know that secret societies exist but I don't believe that secret societies are trying to take over the world. Like I said in an earlier post, I am older than most of the people on this site and this conspiracy has been around as long as I can remember. When are they gonna make their move and take over the world? As for 9/11; what do I know, I was only there. And the fact that I am propably as educated in the physics of building collapse as any structural engineer means that I do know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry to disappoint all you conspiracy lovers but most of the crap being put out about 9/11 conspiracy is utter b.s. Have there been certain things covered up or mishandled? Sure but that's to be expected with this kind of thing. Our govt. is incompetent so I just don't see them pulling off a cover up of this magnitude. I've studied this topic since shortly after 9/11 and I've not found any convincing evidence that can't be explained logically. This type of collapse is unprecedented but that doesn't mean it was planned. I was there and smelled the jetfuel and saw pieces of aircraft. I saw pieces of body parts and smelled the horrific odor of rotting flesh. It's nightmarish what I experienced and I hope nobody ever has to see or experience what I saw and experienced. I try to keep an open mind about things but some of the allegations being made are completely false and ridiculous (No offense).
More words being put into my mouth. Show me where I say that I back up any govt. Governments lie. Get used to it bro. It's not right but it's a fact of life. Look at who runs govt. It's politicians and what do they do? They lie.
Read my entire post. The first 5 sentences address the freemason/illuminotti thing. I've read a lot of this shit in my younger days. I found it to be fascinating and I believe there is some truth to every myth or conspiracy. That's what makes most of them so believable to so many seemingly intelligent people. It is my opinion that there is no secret society trying to take over the world, and I was pretty much a believer like yourself at one time. I do believe that there is a loose association, nothing official or even tangible except some business relationships and political affiliations, of elites that are doing some pretty devious things but they are doing it openly for the most part. It may not be getting reported as it should but I don't buy into an organized plot by some ultra secret group of shadowy figures in black robes, chanting unintelligible verses from some book of spells or something. It's a great plot for a movie but hardly seems like reality to me. I admit that I may be wrong but I doubt it. Nobody here can say for sure what is really going on because no one person has all the pieces to the puzzle. The puzzle is enormous and life is too complicated to have knowledge of everything. My appetite for knowledge is insatiable and I have read volumes on conspiracies and plain old boring history as well. I still don't know everything and admit that I have much to learn. If I am presented with enough evidence to satisfy my skeptical mind I may change my views, but I'll remain skeptical until such a time.
BTW, I read Behold a Pale Horse back in the early 90's.
DobermanGuy
Well-Known Member
I love you, couldn'tve said it better.Read my entire post. The first 5 sentences address the freemason/illuminotti thing. I've read a lot of this shit in my younger days. I found it to be fascinating and I believe there is some truth to every myth or conspiracy. That's what makes most of them so believable to so many seemingly intelligent people. It is my opinion that there is no secret society trying to take over the world, and I was pretty much a believer like yourself at one time. I do believe that there is a loose association, nothing official or even tangible except some business relationships and political affiliations, of elites that are doing some pretty devious things but they are doing it openly for the most part. It may not be getting reported as it should but I don't buy into an organized plot by some ultra secret group of shadowy figures in black robes, chanting unintelligible verses from some book of spells or something. It's a great plot for a movie but hardly seems like reality to me. I admit that I may be wrong but I doubt it. Nobody here can say for sure what is really going on because no one person has all the pieces to the puzzle. The puzzle is enormous and life is too complicated to have knowledge of everything. My appetite for knowledge is insatiable and I have read volumes on conspiracies and plain old boring history as well. I still don't know everything and admit that I have much to learn. If I am presented with enough evidence to satisfy my skeptical mind I may change my views, but I'll remain skeptical until such a time.
DobermanGuy
Well-Known Member
i hate to say it but there WAS a molten metal running from the side of the one of the towers. That sorta nulls that whole article, imo. Unless there's is a metal that gets red hot at those temps that im not thinking of.
blazin256
Well-Known Member
doesnt really answer anything for me. just strengthens my point. in that article it says that the wtc was unlikely it got above 750-800c. still doesnt explain the molten steel MONTHS after the collapse. still doesnt explain the plane NASA flew over ground zero that recorded hot spots weeks after the collapse. i guess the eyewitnesses were wrong http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a091601hotspots
and im no scientist but on the initial impact of the planes, does most of the fuel escape in that plume?
i try to remain skeptical too, but history has shown numerous times of people trying to gain control of the world. it is no different now. but they got smart and teamed up for the control. time can only tell though, and they can only defeat us if we let them. this is a good article to read also http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571 and pretty much anything on that site makes sense, to me anyway..Read my entire post. The first 5 sentences address the freemason/illuminotti thing. I've read a lot of this shit in my younger days. I found it to be fascinating and I believe there is some truth to every myth or conspiracy. That's what makes most of them so believable to so many seemingly intelligent people. It is my opinion that there is no secret society trying to take over the world, and I was pretty much a believer like yourself at one time. I do believe that there is a loose association, nothing official or even tangible except some business relationships and political affiliations, of elites that are doing some pretty devious things but they are doing it openly for the most part. It may not be getting reported as it should but I don't buy into an organized plot by some ultra secret group of shadowy figures in black robes, chanting unintelligible verses from some book of spells or something. It's a great plot for a movie but hardly seems like reality to me. I admit that I may be wrong but I doubt it. Nobody here can say for sure what is really going on because no one person has all the pieces to the puzzle. The puzzle is enormous and life is too complicated to have knowledge of everything. My appetite for knowledge is insatiable and I have read volumes on conspiracies and plain old boring history as well. I still don't know everything and admit that I have much to learn. If I am presented with enough evidence to satisfy my skeptical mind I may change my views, but I'll remain skeptical until such a time.
doc111
Well-Known Member
Thank you. I like your reasoning as well. Look, I'm not trying to make anybody look or feel stupid. I take this 9/11 conspiracy thing kinda seriously I guess. I realize that there are firefighters who believe that this is a conspiracy and I respect them and their opinions. It doesn't mean I don't think they are wrong. I concede that there are some things that are a bit difficult to explain and certainly there were pieces of evidence that were mishandled. I think that they didn't follow all of the normal protocols because they had tons and tons of evidence! Now, how the hell are you going to process thousands of tons of evidence without some of it slipping through? Normal protocols probably weren't followed because it was obvious what happened. There were several thousand, if not millions of eye witnesses (I watched the second plane hit on tv). There was no time to set up a controlled demo. They would've had to have explosives in place before the planes hit and in the perfect spot. That's highly unlikely to say the least. I'm sure someone will come on here and explain to me how I'm wrong and just don't understand because I haven't seen all of the evidence. I've read as much stuff, if not more than these people on here. Look at my signature. 343 is a reference to the number of firefighters killed at ground zero. It's my tribute to them. I knew a few of those guys and I'm still not the same person I was before 9/11. The month I spent at ground zero changed my life forever. But I'm fortunate 'cause I didn't lose my life and I don't have to deal with the pain of having lost someone really close. All this conspiracy b.s. is a bit upsetting to me because I think it dishonors the memory of the brave men and women who gave their lives so that others could live. Those firemen and police that paid the ultimate price that day are true heroes and deserve better than this.
doc111
Well-Known Member
.........and neither did these buildings. They were hit by jumbo jets travelling somewhere around 500 miles per hour. There were huge explosions on impact, THEN they burned for over an hour before finally collapsing. It was hardly "fire alone" that did these buildings in.
MediMary
Well-Known Member
sorry guys for the multiple posts, having some problems with the internet tday.
ok doc.
[video=youtube;cUlWpqLsOVs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUlWpqLsOVs[/video]
after the plane hit in 1945, the WTC were built specifically to withstand a large plane crashing into them.
http://www.withthecommand.com/2002-Jan/NY-empireplane.html
Historical Perspective:
Plane strikes the Empire State Building
By Thomas M. Cunningham
US Naval Academy Fire Department
At 9:50 am on Saturday July 28, 1945, impossibility became a reality. A B-25 Billy Mitchell bomber belonging to the US Army Air Corps crashed into the Empire State Building. The plane was enroute to the Newark Airport located in New Jersey when it struck the 102-story structure. The odds against such an incident ever happening were computed as being 10,000 to 1. But weather flying conditions at the time helped contribute to the incident.
Lt. Col. William F. Smith a 27-year-old West Point Graduate was piloting the plane at the time of the incident. He was a combat veteran and had flown for two years over the skies of Europe. During his time in Europe he had amassed over a thousand hours flying time. For the hours he had flown Col. Smith was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal and the Croix de Guerre for his wartime service in the European theater.
This flight originated in New Bedford, Mass and attempts to land at LaGuardia airport were unsuccessful due to the dense fog that had socked in the area. The plane then turned and headed for Newark airport. LaGuardia tower told Col. Smith that the ceiling was near zero and visibility forward would be limited to three miles. The air traffic controller also added that because of the conditions the top of the Empire State Building was not visible.
People walking on the streets below at approximately 9:48 am looked up and briefly caught a glimpse of the bomber flying through the clouds as it just missed the Rockefeller center. Eyewitness accounts say the plane was flying about 500 feet when the near miss occurred. The plane then banked sharply up and disappeared into the fog.
No one knows for sure, but investigators believe that Col. Smith looked down through a break in the cloud cover and saw a curved river and thought it to be the East River, when in fact it was the Hudson. Seeing this curve it is believed that he then descended for his approach at Newark airport. It is believed that the planes speed at this time was 225 mph. Within seconds the plane was closing rapidly on the Empire State Building. Col. Smith attempted to veer away from the structure but his proximity to the building would not allow for such an evasive maneuver. The plane impacted the78th and 79th floors on the towers north end.
The impact of the plane created an 18 x 20 foot hole in the side of the tower. This crash caused extensive damage to the masonry exterior and the interior steel structure of the building. The 102-foot building was rocked by the impact. Many people who were in the street at the time saw flames shooting from the point of impact, which was at the 913-foot level. The impact was heard as far as two miles away. Flames and dense smoke obscured the top of the structure. Later on a wing was found on Madison Avenue, one block away.
Nearby buildings were damaged by fragments of the impact and one of the planes engines was found on the South side of the building in the top of a twelve story building. The engine had flown over thirty-third St. and had crashed through a skylight in a penthouse. The engine started a $78,000.00 fire in the studio of sculptor Henry Hering. Hotel magnet Vincent Astor owned this 12-story building.
The other engine hit the door leading into an elevator shaft and fell 80 stories. While falling the engine cut the cables on many of the elevators. A woman riding one of these elevators was sent plummeting downward, but the elevator braking system prevented a basement crash, instead the top of the elevator was crush an she was trapped in total darkness.
The fuselage of the plane disintegrated into the 78th and 79th floor killing all four onboard the B-25, as well as killing or injuring everyone working in the War Relief Services and National Catholic Welfare Conference offices. Those who perished were either killed by the flying metal or by the raging inferno that followed.
One body was found on a 72nd story ledge, but was burned beyond recognition. Only 14 people would perish in this incident and another 25 would suffer severe wounds.
In the streets people were frozen in terror as they watched the events unfold. Arriving fire companies proceeded up into the building using the remaining working elevators and began to attack the blaze. Water and gasoline poured out of the gapping hole and ran down the exterior of the building.
Soon fire companies got the blaze under control and were able to extinguish it without any further calamities occurring. It took the FDNY 4 alarms to bring this situation under control.
The woman in the elevator was saved when a man named Donald Maloney who had been passing by witnessed the accident ran into a drugstore. There he demanded hypodermic needles as well as drugs and other medical supplies, he then raced into the damaged building to help. Mr. Maloney was a former hospital apprentice in the US Coast Guard.
Once inside he found rescuers who had forced an opening into the crushed elevator. Mr. Maloney then lowered himself into the crushed elevator and removed the unconscious woman, upon extricating her he administered morphine to her and she was then rushed to the hospital Mr. Maloneys actions saved the womans life.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/spain_fire_9-11.html
SPANISH SKYSCRAPER FIRE RAISES
QUESTIONS ABOUT 9/11 COLLAPSES
By Christopher Bollyn
American Free Press
The fact that a Spanish skyscraper is still standing after an intense
fire consumed the steel and concrete tower for 24 hours provides real
world evidence that fire alone does not cause high-rise towers to
collapse.
As an intense fire consumed the 32-story Windsor Building in Madrid's
business district, the press reports all began with the words "fear
of collapse." After 24 hours, however, the tower, which was a similar
construction to the twin towers of the World Trade Center, remained
standing.
The fact that an extremely severe fire did not cause the Spanish
steel and concrete tower to collapse raises serious questions about
the events of 9/11 and how they have been explained. Why did the
Windsor Building remain standing when similar towers in New York City
collapsed completely after being affected by much less intense fires
burning for considerably shorter periods of time?
The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) sponsored engineers to
conduct the World Trade Center Building Performance Study (BPS) to
examine how the buildings of the WTC responded to the airplane
crashes and fires that allegedly caused the collapses of the twin
towers and WTC 7, a 47-story office building on the next block.
"Prior to September 11, 2001, there was little, if any, record of
fire-induced collapse of large fire-protected steel buildings," the
BPS says in the chapter about the mysterious collapse of WTC 7, the
third tower to collapse on 9/11. WTC 7 was not hit by aircraft or
large pieces of debris and had only sporadic fires. At about 5:25
p.m., WTC 7, owned by Larry Silverstein, collapsed in what appeared
to be a controlled demolition.
It would be more accurate to say that no steel framed high-rise, like
WTC 7, has ever collapsed due to fire. The fact that the Windsor
Building is still standing is proof that fire alone does not cause
properly constructed steel and concrete towers to collapse.
Dr. W. Gene Corley, Senior Vice President of Construction Technology
Laboratories (CTL) of Skokie, Ill., was team leader of the engineers
who wrote the BPS.
CTL is a subsidiary of the Portland Cement Association and "provides
structural and architectural engineering, testing, and materials
technology services throughout the U.S. and internationally."
According to its website, "CTLs expertise extends beyond cement and
concrete, encompassing virtually all structural systems and
construction materials."
WACO, OKLAHOMA CITY, AND WTC
Corley served as expert adviser during the government's investigation
of the 1993 fatal fire at the Branch Davidian complex in Waco, Texas.
In 1995, Corley led a Building Performance Assessment Team (BPAT)
investigation of the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in
Oklahoma City. In September 2001, once again, Corley was selected to
head the team to study building performance after the attack on New
Yorks World Trade Center.
In the executive summary of the WTC study, Corley wrote that
secondary fires caused the twin towers to collapse:
"The heat produced by this burning jet fuel does not by itself appear
to have been sufficient to initiate the structural collapses.
However, as the burning jet fuel spread across several floors of the
buildings, it ignited much of the buildings' contents, causing
simultaneous fires across several floors of both buildings," Corley
wrote. "Over a period of many minutes, this heat induced additional
stresses into the damaged structural frames while simultaneously
softening and weakening these frames. This additional loading and the
resulting damage were sufficient to induce the collapse of both
structures."
In the section that deals with the collapse of the twin towers, the
BPS says: "Because the aircraft impacts into the two buildings are
not believed to have been sufficient to cause collapse without the
ensuing fires, the obvious question is whether the fires alone,
without the damage from the aircraft impact, would have been
sufficient to cause such a collapse it is impossible, without
extensive modeling and other analysis, to make a credible prediction
of how the buildings would have responded to an extremely severe fire
in a situation where there was no prior structural damage."
The Windsor Building fire in Madrid provides an excellent real-world
model to show how the twin towers should have responded to "an
extremely severe fire" alone. The Windsor Building has central
support columns in its core section, which is similar to the
construction of the twin towers. This central core is what supported
the gravity load of the towers.
In the Windsor Building fire, the fire is thought to have started on
the 21st floor late on Saturday night, Feb. 12. The upper floors were
consumed by intense fire for at least 18 hours. The fire moved down
the building and burned the entire structure. The fire is reported to
have burned temperatures of at 800 degrees Celsius, or nearly 1,500
degrees Fahrenheit.
There was a partial collapse of parts of the top 10 floors as the
trusses, which went from the core columns to the outside walls,
appear to have failed. It is important to note, however, that the
lower floors did not collapse and the core section is still standing
with a construction crane on the roof.
The complete failure of the 47-central support columns in the twin
towers of the WTC is one of the key outstanding questions about what
caused their collapses. It would be expected that they should have
remained standing even if some of the floor trusses failed. There is
no explanation for what caused the huge box columns to fail.
Two of the contractors who removed the rubble told AFP that they had
found molten steel in the 7th basement level when they reached the
bedrock where the columns were based. There is no explanation for
what caused such intense residual heat to be found at the base of the
twin towers, although some experts have pointed to powerful
explosives.
By press time, Dr. Corley had not responded to questions about the
BPS findings and the questions raised by the Windsor Building fire.
Corley's assistant told AFP that he had just gone to the airport and
would not be returning to the office until Feb. 28.
The Windsor Building was built from 1973-1979 in an area of Madrid
where commercial property was developed on land owned by Rio Tinto,
the international mining giant. This is thought to be the reason why
the Windsor Building carries the name of the British royal family.
The WTC towers were completed in the early 1970's.
The Windsor Building housed the offices of Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu,
a multinational financial services company, which occupied 20 floors
of the tower.
The area where the Windsor Building stands is a mixed residential and
commercial area known as the AZCA zone. Dubbed 'Madrid's Manhattan',
AZCA contains a cluster of modern skyscrapers. The tallest one is the
Torre Picasso, a 516-foot tower built in 1989. The Picasso Tower was
designed by Minoru Yamasaki, who also designed the twin towers of the
WTC. Unión de Explosivos Río Tinto, S.A., owns the land where the
tower stands.
Finis
The Windsor Building (Edificio Windsor) in Madrid, Spain burned "like
a torch" for more than 18 hours from Saturday night, Feb. 12. After
burning in an uncontrolled inferno the tower's core columns remain
standing with a huge construction crane on top of the roof. This
evidence supports the fact that prior to 9/11 NO steel-framed high-
rise had ever collapsed due to fire. On 9/11 the 47-story WTC 7,
owned by Larry Silverstein, collapsed at 5:25 p.m. There is no
explanation for why the WTC 7 collapsed except for the fact that
Silverstein told PBS that the decision was made to "pull it" and "we
watched it come down."
also check this out http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wtc1_core.html
The Collapse of WTC 1:
Madrid Exposes a Fundamental Flaw
some of the folks in this thread make we want to start calling names...
ok doc.
[video=youtube;cUlWpqLsOVs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUlWpqLsOVs[/video]
after the plane hit in 1945, the WTC were built specifically to withstand a large plane crashing into them.
http://www.withthecommand.com/2002-Jan/NY-empireplane.html
Historical Perspective:
Plane strikes the Empire State Building
By Thomas M. Cunningham
US Naval Academy Fire Department
At 9:50 am on Saturday July 28, 1945, impossibility became a reality. A B-25 Billy Mitchell bomber belonging to the US Army Air Corps crashed into the Empire State Building. The plane was enroute to the Newark Airport located in New Jersey when it struck the 102-story structure. The odds against such an incident ever happening were computed as being 10,000 to 1. But weather flying conditions at the time helped contribute to the incident.
Lt. Col. William F. Smith a 27-year-old West Point Graduate was piloting the plane at the time of the incident. He was a combat veteran and had flown for two years over the skies of Europe. During his time in Europe he had amassed over a thousand hours flying time. For the hours he had flown Col. Smith was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal and the Croix de Guerre for his wartime service in the European theater.
This flight originated in New Bedford, Mass and attempts to land at LaGuardia airport were unsuccessful due to the dense fog that had socked in the area. The plane then turned and headed for Newark airport. LaGuardia tower told Col. Smith that the ceiling was near zero and visibility forward would be limited to three miles. The air traffic controller also added that because of the conditions the top of the Empire State Building was not visible.
People walking on the streets below at approximately 9:48 am looked up and briefly caught a glimpse of the bomber flying through the clouds as it just missed the Rockefeller center. Eyewitness accounts say the plane was flying about 500 feet when the near miss occurred. The plane then banked sharply up and disappeared into the fog.
No one knows for sure, but investigators believe that Col. Smith looked down through a break in the cloud cover and saw a curved river and thought it to be the East River, when in fact it was the Hudson. Seeing this curve it is believed that he then descended for his approach at Newark airport. It is believed that the planes speed at this time was 225 mph. Within seconds the plane was closing rapidly on the Empire State Building. Col. Smith attempted to veer away from the structure but his proximity to the building would not allow for such an evasive maneuver. The plane impacted the78th and 79th floors on the towers north end.
The impact of the plane created an 18 x 20 foot hole in the side of the tower. This crash caused extensive damage to the masonry exterior and the interior steel structure of the building. The 102-foot building was rocked by the impact. Many people who were in the street at the time saw flames shooting from the point of impact, which was at the 913-foot level. The impact was heard as far as two miles away. Flames and dense smoke obscured the top of the structure. Later on a wing was found on Madison Avenue, one block away.
Nearby buildings were damaged by fragments of the impact and one of the planes engines was found on the South side of the building in the top of a twelve story building. The engine had flown over thirty-third St. and had crashed through a skylight in a penthouse. The engine started a $78,000.00 fire in the studio of sculptor Henry Hering. Hotel magnet Vincent Astor owned this 12-story building.
The other engine hit the door leading into an elevator shaft and fell 80 stories. While falling the engine cut the cables on many of the elevators. A woman riding one of these elevators was sent plummeting downward, but the elevator braking system prevented a basement crash, instead the top of the elevator was crush an she was trapped in total darkness.
The fuselage of the plane disintegrated into the 78th and 79th floor killing all four onboard the B-25, as well as killing or injuring everyone working in the War Relief Services and National Catholic Welfare Conference offices. Those who perished were either killed by the flying metal or by the raging inferno that followed.
One body was found on a 72nd story ledge, but was burned beyond recognition. Only 14 people would perish in this incident and another 25 would suffer severe wounds.
In the streets people were frozen in terror as they watched the events unfold. Arriving fire companies proceeded up into the building using the remaining working elevators and began to attack the blaze. Water and gasoline poured out of the gapping hole and ran down the exterior of the building.
Soon fire companies got the blaze under control and were able to extinguish it without any further calamities occurring. It took the FDNY 4 alarms to bring this situation under control.
The woman in the elevator was saved when a man named Donald Maloney who had been passing by witnessed the accident ran into a drugstore. There he demanded hypodermic needles as well as drugs and other medical supplies, he then raced into the damaged building to help. Mr. Maloney was a former hospital apprentice in the US Coast Guard.
Once inside he found rescuers who had forced an opening into the crushed elevator. Mr. Maloney then lowered himself into the crushed elevator and removed the unconscious woman, upon extricating her he administered morphine to her and she was then rushed to the hospital Mr. Maloneys actions saved the womans life.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/spain_fire_9-11.html
SPANISH SKYSCRAPER FIRE RAISES
QUESTIONS ABOUT 9/11 COLLAPSES
By Christopher Bollyn
American Free Press
The fact that a Spanish skyscraper is still standing after an intense
fire consumed the steel and concrete tower for 24 hours provides real
world evidence that fire alone does not cause high-rise towers to
collapse.
As an intense fire consumed the 32-story Windsor Building in Madrid's
business district, the press reports all began with the words "fear
of collapse." After 24 hours, however, the tower, which was a similar
construction to the twin towers of the World Trade Center, remained
standing.
The fact that an extremely severe fire did not cause the Spanish
steel and concrete tower to collapse raises serious questions about
the events of 9/11 and how they have been explained. Why did the
Windsor Building remain standing when similar towers in New York City
collapsed completely after being affected by much less intense fires
burning for considerably shorter periods of time?
The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) sponsored engineers to
conduct the World Trade Center Building Performance Study (BPS) to
examine how the buildings of the WTC responded to the airplane
crashes and fires that allegedly caused the collapses of the twin
towers and WTC 7, a 47-story office building on the next block.
"Prior to September 11, 2001, there was little, if any, record of
fire-induced collapse of large fire-protected steel buildings," the
BPS says in the chapter about the mysterious collapse of WTC 7, the
third tower to collapse on 9/11. WTC 7 was not hit by aircraft or
large pieces of debris and had only sporadic fires. At about 5:25
p.m., WTC 7, owned by Larry Silverstein, collapsed in what appeared
to be a controlled demolition.
It would be more accurate to say that no steel framed high-rise, like
WTC 7, has ever collapsed due to fire. The fact that the Windsor
Building is still standing is proof that fire alone does not cause
properly constructed steel and concrete towers to collapse.
Dr. W. Gene Corley, Senior Vice President of Construction Technology
Laboratories (CTL) of Skokie, Ill., was team leader of the engineers
who wrote the BPS.
CTL is a subsidiary of the Portland Cement Association and "provides
structural and architectural engineering, testing, and materials
technology services throughout the U.S. and internationally."
According to its website, "CTLs expertise extends beyond cement and
concrete, encompassing virtually all structural systems and
construction materials."
WACO, OKLAHOMA CITY, AND WTC
Corley served as expert adviser during the government's investigation
of the 1993 fatal fire at the Branch Davidian complex in Waco, Texas.
In 1995, Corley led a Building Performance Assessment Team (BPAT)
investigation of the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in
Oklahoma City. In September 2001, once again, Corley was selected to
head the team to study building performance after the attack on New
Yorks World Trade Center.
In the executive summary of the WTC study, Corley wrote that
secondary fires caused the twin towers to collapse:
"The heat produced by this burning jet fuel does not by itself appear
to have been sufficient to initiate the structural collapses.
However, as the burning jet fuel spread across several floors of the
buildings, it ignited much of the buildings' contents, causing
simultaneous fires across several floors of both buildings," Corley
wrote. "Over a period of many minutes, this heat induced additional
stresses into the damaged structural frames while simultaneously
softening and weakening these frames. This additional loading and the
resulting damage were sufficient to induce the collapse of both
structures."
In the section that deals with the collapse of the twin towers, the
BPS says: "Because the aircraft impacts into the two buildings are
not believed to have been sufficient to cause collapse without the
ensuing fires, the obvious question is whether the fires alone,
without the damage from the aircraft impact, would have been
sufficient to cause such a collapse it is impossible, without
extensive modeling and other analysis, to make a credible prediction
of how the buildings would have responded to an extremely severe fire
in a situation where there was no prior structural damage."
The Windsor Building fire in Madrid provides an excellent real-world
model to show how the twin towers should have responded to "an
extremely severe fire" alone. The Windsor Building has central
support columns in its core section, which is similar to the
construction of the twin towers. This central core is what supported
the gravity load of the towers.
In the Windsor Building fire, the fire is thought to have started on
the 21st floor late on Saturday night, Feb. 12. The upper floors were
consumed by intense fire for at least 18 hours. The fire moved down
the building and burned the entire structure. The fire is reported to
have burned temperatures of at 800 degrees Celsius, or nearly 1,500
degrees Fahrenheit.
There was a partial collapse of parts of the top 10 floors as the
trusses, which went from the core columns to the outside walls,
appear to have failed. It is important to note, however, that the
lower floors did not collapse and the core section is still standing
with a construction crane on the roof.
The complete failure of the 47-central support columns in the twin
towers of the WTC is one of the key outstanding questions about what
caused their collapses. It would be expected that they should have
remained standing even if some of the floor trusses failed. There is
no explanation for what caused the huge box columns to fail.
Two of the contractors who removed the rubble told AFP that they had
found molten steel in the 7th basement level when they reached the
bedrock where the columns were based. There is no explanation for
what caused such intense residual heat to be found at the base of the
twin towers, although some experts have pointed to powerful
explosives.
By press time, Dr. Corley had not responded to questions about the
BPS findings and the questions raised by the Windsor Building fire.
Corley's assistant told AFP that he had just gone to the airport and
would not be returning to the office until Feb. 28.
The Windsor Building was built from 1973-1979 in an area of Madrid
where commercial property was developed on land owned by Rio Tinto,
the international mining giant. This is thought to be the reason why
the Windsor Building carries the name of the British royal family.
The WTC towers were completed in the early 1970's.
The Windsor Building housed the offices of Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu,
a multinational financial services company, which occupied 20 floors
of the tower.
The area where the Windsor Building stands is a mixed residential and
commercial area known as the AZCA zone. Dubbed 'Madrid's Manhattan',
AZCA contains a cluster of modern skyscrapers. The tallest one is the
Torre Picasso, a 516-foot tower built in 1989. The Picasso Tower was
designed by Minoru Yamasaki, who also designed the twin towers of the
WTC. Unión de Explosivos Río Tinto, S.A., owns the land where the
tower stands.
Finis
The Windsor Building (Edificio Windsor) in Madrid, Spain burned "like
a torch" for more than 18 hours from Saturday night, Feb. 12. After
burning in an uncontrolled inferno the tower's core columns remain
standing with a huge construction crane on top of the roof. This
evidence supports the fact that prior to 9/11 NO steel-framed high-
rise had ever collapsed due to fire. On 9/11 the 47-story WTC 7,
owned by Larry Silverstein, collapsed at 5:25 p.m. There is no
explanation for why the WTC 7 collapsed except for the fact that
Silverstein told PBS that the decision was made to "pull it" and "we
watched it come down."
also check this out http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wtc1_core.html
The Collapse of WTC 1:
Madrid Exposes a Fundamental Flaw
some of the folks in this thread make we want to start calling names...
iNVESTIGATE
Well-Known Member
If you watch the videos of the impact of the second plane.. you see all of the jetfuel burn up in that big ass fire ball as soon as it hits.
And fire tends to crawl around and eat up sources (to things that will fuel the fire(desks, chairs, paper, etc)) and then once its burned up it moves to try an find another means of surviving.
The chances of fire sufficiently burning in that short of a time & SYMMETRICALLY collapsing 3 fire-proofed steel framed high rise buildings in less than an hour and a half after incident is slim to none..
But oh wait, 'planes hit the twin tower's so of course they were gonna collapse'.. more so to my point then. The fucking building's shouldnt have fallen through what is the path of Greatest resistance and should have toppled or something of the like. Defying physic's as we know it.
If the OCT (Official Conspiracy Theory/9-11Commision) is true than there should be world-wide safety/fire regulation's for high-rise steel buildings set in place.
Because fire has never, until '01, accomplished what few demolition companies could.
And there yah go.. next time we need to demolish a building lets just drive an empty shell-of-a-plane into said building and set it aflame and it will crush mid-air into pyroclastic clouds of pulverized concrete falling into it's own footprint neatly so as not to damage other building's without terrorist insurance claims..
And fire tends to crawl around and eat up sources (to things that will fuel the fire(desks, chairs, paper, etc)) and then once its burned up it moves to try an find another means of surviving.
The chances of fire sufficiently burning in that short of a time & SYMMETRICALLY collapsing 3 fire-proofed steel framed high rise buildings in less than an hour and a half after incident is slim to none..
But oh wait, 'planes hit the twin tower's so of course they were gonna collapse'.. more so to my point then. The fucking building's shouldnt have fallen through what is the path of Greatest resistance and should have toppled or something of the like. Defying physic's as we know it.
If the OCT (Official Conspiracy Theory/9-11Commision) is true than there should be world-wide safety/fire regulation's for high-rise steel buildings set in place.
Because fire has never, until '01, accomplished what few demolition companies could.
And there yah go.. next time we need to demolish a building lets just drive an empty shell-of-a-plane into said building and set it aflame and it will crush mid-air into pyroclastic clouds of pulverized concrete falling into it's own footprint neatly so as not to damage other building's without terrorist insurance claims..
MediMary
Well-Known Member
amen investigate..
and like i said the towers were made specifically to withstand being hit by a plane, because of the plane that hit the empire state build in1945(which DIDNT even fall down)
I guess the old say "they dont build like they used to" applies.
I thought building would be better made after all the advances over the years..
and like i said the towers were made specifically to withstand being hit by a plane, because of the plane that hit the empire state build in1945(which DIDNT even fall down)
I guess the old say "they dont build like they used to" applies.
I thought building would be better made after all the advances over the years..
doc111
Well-Known Member
No plane hit tower 7 but 2 buildings right next to WTC 7 were hit and subsequently collapsed. Thousands of tons of burning debris then rained down on everything below, including building 7. Major structural damage was reported on building 7 and there was a raging fire which consumed some of the diesel tanks which fueled the emergency generators. These buildings were designed to withstand the initial impact of a large plane, which both buildings did brilliantly. The 767's which struck the WTC are considerably larger and faster than the b-25 which struck the empire state building. Both jets were loaded with fuel. Any time something of this magnitude happens, there will be those who will immediately start to claim conspiracy, which is exactly what happened on 9/11. Within hours I was hearing stories about how it was Israel, or the Bush administration (and that was before he was really despised).
Ask any demo engineer how long it takes to rig a building for implosion. It can take months and it takes a lot of manpower. Someone would've noticed. The 2 towers would've had to have been rigged precisesly where the buildings were hit. This is so highly unlikely................
It's true that no steel frame building had collapsed solely from fire before this. These buildings didn't collapse solely from fire either. They were hit with a shitload of kinetic energy and bathed in a jetfuel fireball. I've seen the claims about how some skyscrapers that have burned far worse than the WTC and survived. The only thing I can say is that the events of 9/11 were unprecedented. Never before had a jumbo jet, filled with fuel and passengers been driven intentionally into a skyscraper. 2 were driven into skyscrapers in the same day and they were right next to each other! The first tower collapsing more than likely damaged the structure of the other tower and building 7. The second tower came down and probably further damaged building 7. I don't know what more I can say.
These are the facts as I understand them. IMO they are mostly accurate. Thousands, if not millions of people witnessed these 2 planes being driven into the towers so we know that actually happened. No demo was necessary after that because they were both badly damaged on impact. IMO, it's amazing they stood as long as they did.
Check this site out. It explains everything far better than I ever could:
http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm
doc111
Well-Known Member
Here are the specifications for both the B-25 and the 767. You can clearly see how much more weight, fuel and speed the 767 has in comparison to the Mitchell B-25 bomber. That adds up to a shitload more kinetic energy being released upon impact. Now I'm not a physicist but I did sleep at a holiday inn express last night. 
North American B-25B Specs:
[FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][FONT=arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1]Boeing 767-300 specs[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]One of the two airplanes which flew into the side of the World Trade Center towers in New York was confirmed to be American Airlines, Flight 11 -- a Boeing 767 -- out of Boston. The flight was scheduled to leave Boston at 7:45 a.m. en route to Los Angeles. Below are details on the type of aircraft. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
Picture of American Airlines Boeing 767-300[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
Dimensions of American Airlines Boeing 767-300 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Basic Dimensions Wing Span: 180 ft 3 in (54.9 m) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Overall Length: 52 ft (15.8 m) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Tail Height: 15 ft 6 in (4.7 m) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Interior Cabin Width 156 ft 1in (47.6 m) Passengers [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Typical 3-class configuration: 218[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Typical 2-class configuration: 269[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Typical 1-class configuration: up to 351[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Cargo: 3,770 cu ft (106.8 cu m) Maximum Fuel Capacity: 23,980 U.S. gal (90,770 l) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Maximum Takeoff Weight: 412,000 lb (186,880 kg) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Maximum Range: 6,115 nautical miles; 11,320 km [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Typical Cruise Speed: at 35,000 feet 0.80 Mach; 530 mph (850 km/h) [/FONT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]
North American B-25B Specs:
- Engines: Two 1700 hp Wright R-2600-9 Double Cyclone fourteen-cylinder air-cooled radials.
- Maximum Speed: 300 mph at 15,000 feet.
- Ceiling: 23,500 feet.
- Range: 2000 miles with 3000 pounds of bombs.
- Weight: 20,000 pounds empty, 28,460 pounds loaded, 31,000 pounds maximum.
- Wingspan: 68 feet, Length: 53 feet
- Fuel: 692 gallons. Provison for one 420-gallon drop tank
- Armament: One nose-mounted .30 caliber machine gun. Four .50 calibers, a pair in two Bendix turrets (one top and one bottom).
[FONT=arial,helvetica]One of the two airplanes which flew into the side of the World Trade Center towers in New York was confirmed to be American Airlines, Flight 11 -- a Boeing 767 -- out of Boston. The flight was scheduled to leave Boston at 7:45 a.m. en route to Los Angeles. Below are details on the type of aircraft. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Basic Dimensions Wing Span: 180 ft 3 in (54.9 m) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Overall Length: 52 ft (15.8 m) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Tail Height: 15 ft 6 in (4.7 m) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Interior Cabin Width 156 ft 1in (47.6 m) Passengers [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Typical 3-class configuration: 218[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Typical 2-class configuration: 269[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Typical 1-class configuration: up to 351[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Cargo: 3,770 cu ft (106.8 cu m) Maximum Fuel Capacity: 23,980 U.S. gal (90,770 l) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Maximum Takeoff Weight: 412,000 lb (186,880 kg) [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Maximum Range: 6,115 nautical miles; 11,320 km [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Typical Cruise Speed: at 35,000 feet 0.80 Mach; 530 mph (850 km/h) [/FONT]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]
DobermanGuy
Well-Known Member
600,000 tons per tower. 20,000 tons falling is morethan enough to do MAJOR damage. Working with this amount of weight is insane.
+1. Doesnt get much clearer.Check this site out. It explains everything far better than I ever could: