Nitrogen Toxicity?

After some troubles this plant has bounced back, but now it started having nitrogen toxicity problems, I believe. I think this is the case since the leaves are all dark green and clawing/bending downwards.

The problem started after I went from a ppm of about 500 to 650 (base RO ppm is 200). What I did to attempt to fix it was change out to another bucket that just had ph'd RO water for 24 hours. However, after this it looked worse - the downward pointed leaves were only on the lower leaves but now they're on all of them. One or two leaves on the bottom have speckled brown as well, near the middle of the leaves. On growweedeasy it stated this is generally N toxicity... What I did as well to avoid possible issues is two weeks ago, sprayed with a light dose of neem oil, and last week another dose as well as a very tiny amount mixed in of Safer Insect Killing Soap. I'm talking like 1 ml to one of those sprayer/misters, so likely a mix ratio of 500/1 or so.

So now my ph is 5.3 (usually 5.2 to 5.6) right now. Using hydroguard. ppm is now at 500, so there's 300 ppm of nutes, which is what I had before issues arose; isn't that kinda low for ppm? My nute is dynagro. Roots look nice and white, though after a day in just RO they seemed to have a tinge of brown - one day in plain RO? WTH? Res temp is 65 right now. Temps went down and for the prior two days the temp of the res was 60 - 62, so I haven't been exhausting the air out of the room to the outside, rather just into the room, then a fan on low blowing out of the room. Light is a cob LED, 240 watts (true watts). Light height was about 2.5 feet, just lowered to 2 feet, to try and give some more heat and fuel to the plant. Location of grow is in a basement that has a room temp right now of 66-68 degrees.

I understand from my previous issues/thread that smaller increments are best for hydro, so I hope that's what I'm doing now. I have a CBD strain that is just coming out of a rapid rooter in a dome, hope to be ready soon so hopefully I can get these issues resolved soon.

Lion-O said:

(base RO ppm is 200).

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RO should be 0 ppm.

650 ppm is WAY too strong for those little ones.

pH should be 5.5 to 6.1

rkymtnman said:

RO should be 0 ppm.

650 ppm is WAY too strong for those little ones.

pH should be 5.5 to 6.1

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Thanks for the information - however RO is not always 0. I read a study on why RO ppm would not be 0. Don't remember the specifics, but the take-away is that it could read different than zero. I can't find the link, but it's a real study. So rather than debate upon that part, I will take the other information you posted and adjust. So what should the ppm be for that size then for nutes?

Lion-O said:

Thanks for the information - however RO is not always 0. I read a study on why RO ppm would not be 0. Don't remember the specifics, but the take-away is that it could read different than zero. I can't find the link, but it's a real study. So rather than debate upon that part, I will take the other information you posted and adjust. So what should the ppm be for that size then for nutes?

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RO if more than 5ppm is not RO and the filters need to be changed.

i'd go for half of what you are at. 300ppm range.

rkymtnman said:

RO if more than 5ppm is not RO and the filters need to be changed.

i'd go for half of what you are at. 300ppm range.

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Thank you again for the prompt reply, but they are NEW filters, new always gives me about that number. I just checked the roots and adjusted per your information. Now the ph is 5.5 and now the ppm is 490, subtracting base RO it is 390 ppm. I generally lift the lid and place in an empty bucket to do adjustments to the water, so seeing the roots showed they are definitely not entirely white, have a light brown, so some issues there as well. Added 1/2 strength hydroguard, so 3 ml of that. I'm not going to search all day for the RO study, but if I come across it, I will provide the link. For now, please give me the benefit of a doubt about that.

With those changes, how long would you say before I see an improvement? Or perhaps will improvement only be seen on new growth? I wish I had a mentor to work with in person, but I'm in a non-legal area. Each mistake that kills a seed or plant costs money which just plain sucks.

it will take awhile to see changes. at least 3 to 4 days.

i just did a google search for RO ppms and up to 50 is considered OK. where i buy my RO (walmart), it's never above 10ppm.

could the brown roots be from nute staining? GH micro will turn them non white. but knowing this, i would recommend full strength hydroguard

Again, RO TDS/PPM readings will differ, they are not always zero. Can't find the link, but I read the study, didn't dream it or anything. From what I remember it has to do with how the meter reads it, based upon electrical conductivity, so something happens with different types of water where the ec/ppm will read differently than expected. TDS meters don't actually count anything, they figure out how to display the result using a formula against the conductivity of the water. All my filters are new/membrane too.

I don't think the browning is from staining as they have been white since adding hydroguard. Only added 1/2 as I did full strength 2 days ago. What I did was get a clean bucket, add nutes and HG, then noticed the plant issues, so got another bucket and it flushed for 24 hrs, the nuted HG water was sitting covered for the day. It's back in the nuted bucket now. Something happened since it was directly placed in plain RO water with the roots. Perhaps since it was in plain RO with PH of 5.2 rather than higher. I also ran another air tube from the air pump using a 3 way to have more air pump through the stone.

I'll keep it at higher PH and hope for the best over the next few days.

Lion-O said:

Again, RO TDS/PPM readings will differ, they are not always zero. Can't find the link, but I read the study, didn't dream it or anything. From what I remember it has to do with how the meter reads it, based upon electrical conductivity, so something happens with different types of water where the ec/ppm will read differently than expected. TDS meters don't actually count anything, they figure out how to display the result using a formula against the conductivity of the water. All my filters are new/membrane too.

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Pure water is a very poor conductor of electricity, which is why an EC meter will read 0.0 in rainwater, reverse osmosis water or de-mineralized water.

I don't know what study you are referring to but the goal of RO water is 0 ppm/EC. if not, why bother with all the filters and membranes?

trust me on this one. RO should be as close to 0 as possible.

rkymtnman said:

Pure water is a very poor conductor of electricity, which is why an EC meter will read 0.0 in rainwater, reverse osmosis water or de-mineralized water.

I don't know what study you are referring to but the goal of RO water is 0 ppm/EC. if not, why bother with all the filters and membranes?

trust me on this one. RO should be as close to 0 as possible.

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I understand what you are saying, but by being as respectful as possible without arguing, I must disagree. Zero is not always the end result due to many factors. Just because I am a newbie at hydro and growing in general does not mean I do not know what I am talking about. I've spent more time than I wanted to in searching for the article just to prove to you this - if I found the article I have the feeling that you may just disagree with it anyway. Please, I do not want to argue or cause problems. I respect your input and really appreciate your help and assistance, but I am an educated person, just cannot find the article. I've used this same water all last year but in soil, without issues in soil - yes hydro/soil is different animal, but issues experienced in soil were unrelated to water issues, other than occasional ph.

If we can please move on from that point --- I'm also wondering if my hydroguard solution is not up to par. I purchased it via Amazon and noticed that several people have spoken online about it not being active/good from there. It's within the 6 mos. beyond date on the label, but others stated it could still be no good. I think I may try my local hydro store today to get another jug or equivalent.

Lion-O said:

Zero is not always the end result due to many factors.

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no, i agree with you. like i said in an earlier post, 0 to 50 ppm is considered acceptable for RO water. a thousand dollar RO system will get closer to 0 than a fifty dollar system.

have you thought about trying a sterile res? that's what i use. HTH pool shock for 3ppm free chlorine will kill the nasties and it's actually a nutrient used by the plant too.

Lion-O said:

ppm is now at 500, so there's 300 ppm of nutes,

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No, there's 500ppm of nutes. What's in your tap water is also nutes unless a water softener is making it all sodium.

rkymtnman said:

650 ppm is WAY too strong for those little ones.

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No it's not.

RO removes salt from water softener. I thought that the hydroguard would fix any issues with roots. Root issues started only after in plain RO for a day to flush, before that was nice and white. For the sake of argument I changed my pre/post filters for RO yesterday and sterilized the system. Membrane was new from March this year. RO system is GE, about $200 a couple years ago. System is a bitch to change membrane section filter though. Didn't check ppm on new water yet though. My filter system is for a well, it goes: whole house sediment > whole house filter > water softener > RO system which has a pre filter, post filter then to membrane. I have a 2nd faucet for it in the basement where my plants are located which makes things easier.

Didn't get to hydro store yesterday, but hopefully today. I may just get all new nutes and root product. I'm also wondering if putting on the neem / insect killing soap is what made more issues too. Perhaps was too preventative. If that's the case, I hope the new growth will compensate, and will not use a preventative product until much more mature in the future. I'm not averse to using hydrogen peroxide, but hoping I won't need to, read horror stories about that. What is HTH though, is it available at Walmart?

Here's new photos. The closeup showing leaf damage is from using a paint brush to brush off stuff when sprayed with insect killing soap/neem oil, however the coloring is a different story. Should have used freebie seeds to start on hydro, but thought I wouldn't be running into problems as my temps are good, and environment is stable. Today the ppm is 492, res 66.3 degrees, tent 68-70, 240 watt cobb led, 2 fans not directly on plant, one exhaust, tent 3x3x6, lights 18/6, off from 12pm - 6pm.

OK, 185 ppm new filters. Arguments with me or against, it is what it is.

Hi guys I need help please my new growing something wrong with it

churchhaze said:

No it's not.

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I don't go that high ever in dwc. what works for you doesn't always work for others.

Lion-O said:

RO removes salt from water softener. I thought that the hydroguard would fix any issues with roots. Root issues started only after in plain RO for a day to flush, before that was nice and white. For the sake of argument I changed my pre/post filters for RO yesterday and sterilized the system. Membrane was new from March this year. RO system is GE, about $200 a couple years ago. System is a bitch to change membrane section filter though. Didn't check ppm on new water yet though. My filter system is for a well, it goes: whole house sediment > whole house filter > water softener > RO system which has a pre filter, post filter then to membrane. I have a 2nd faucet for it in the basement where my plants are located which makes things easier.

Didn't get to hydro store yesterday, but hopefully today. I may just get all new nutes and root product. I'm also wondering if putting on the neem / insect killing soap is what made more issues too. Perhaps was too preventative. If that's the case, I hope the new growth will compensate, and will not use a preventative product until much more mature in the future. I'm not averse to using hydrogen peroxide, but hoping I won't need to, read horror stories about that. What is HTH though, is it available at Walmart?

Here's new photos. The closeup showing leaf damage is from using a paint brush to brush off stuff when sprayed with insect killing soap/neem oil, however the coloring is a different story. Should have used freebie seeds to start on hydro, but thought I wouldn't be running into problems as my temps are good, and environment is stable. Today the ppm is 492, res 66.3 degrees, tent 68-70, 240 watt cobb led, 2 fans not directly on plant, one exhaust, tent 3x3x6, lights 18/6, off from 12pm - 6pm.

OK, 185 ppm new filters. Arguments with me or against, it is what it is.
View attachment 3940391 View attachment 3940392 View attachment 3940393 View attachment 3940394

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ok, where to start: roots look like crap. let's get that fixed first.
did you say you had hydroguard?

this is what i would do: skip using your RO water temporarily. go to walmart and buy one of those 5 gal jugs and fill it up with their RO. use a max dose of hydroguard whatever that may be. go to really light nutes for a few days at least. shoot for somehting like 250 ppm.

hth pool shock is super concentrated chlorine. we can talk about that later but let's get you back on track first and get those roots looking better.

plants that size should have much more root development. less roots means they can handle less nutes too.

Esso2222 said:

Hi guys I need help please my new growing something wrong with it

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you sure do. i would start a new thread over in the soil section and put those same pics up. the dirt guys and gals can give you better advice.

Lion-O said:

neem / insect killing soap

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and stop using that for now too unless you see insects/mites. then keep using it.

If the 490ppm is on the 0.5 scale, that's almost an EC of 1.0 which would be a decent concentration. (I'd still raise it).

If it's a 0.7 scale, you're looking at an EC of 0.7 which is too low. I'd raise it.

I suggest keeping EC between 1.0-1.4.

If you follow the advice to lower it to 250ppm (EC of 0.35 @ 0.7 scale and 0.5 @ 0.5 scale ), your plant will quickly start to look worse.

I just can't understand why so many people on RIU suggest to noobs that they starve their plants.

Lion-O said:

What I did to attempt to fix it was change out to another bucket that just had ph'd RO water for 24 hours. However, after this it looked worse

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Don't do that again... lol. I assume some noob told you you had nute burn and that it needed to be flushed away like that? Yeah that's bad!

There's no point to flushing DWC because you can just empty the reservoir and start over if the mix is bad.

churchhaze said:

(I'd still raise it).

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great advice. plants look like they already have too much N and the roots look like shit so add more nutes.