Nutrient Ratios Information

In Hydro Buddy, there are drop down menus for P>P2O5, K>K2O and Si>SiO2 which allows me to input either the refactored values, or the oxide, whatever is listed. IDK what's available in Europe, but EVERY hydro grower would be much better served to acquire nutrient salts. I mixed my own chelated micro blend and have been using it for the past month or so. Because I am able to dial in my micros to perfection, it is much easier to target all of the macros and secondaries. Those are where the changes are made throughout the grow. My feed usually resolves in an EC range of 1.0-1.4 which is perfect for max calcium uptake. All in all, I am nowe growing the best cannabis I've grown in 5 years and I used GH Flora series for about 4 of those years.
Agreed, although in my case I've just bought the basic salts required to reach my targets for Macros/Secondaries (PotNit, CalNit, MagNit, MKP, MagSulf, PotSulf), and am relying on a Micro blend just to simplify, to minimise the amount of chemicals I have to deal with.
That might change in the near future, as I now spend more on "Essentials" (Micro elements only) than on anything else.
I'm using Nitric Acid as pH- in veg, phosphoric as pH- in flower, and Potassium Silicate as pH+ throughout.

Can I ask: what is the benefit of "max calcium uptake" wouldn't this work against the uptake of potassium, as both are cations? Apologies if this seems a silly question, I really don't understand the role of Calcium very well at all I'm afraid.
 

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
Yeah this is a complex topic and will be different for each strain and grower. This is why nutrient ratio's are much more important than nutrient concentration (ppm). VPD is important to take into consideration and record when testing for optimal concentration. The same strength solution can cause nute burn in one setup and no problems in another. Great thread i found using multiple sources of the same nutrient to be the easiest to balance.
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
Agreed, although in my case I've just bought the basic salts required to reach my targets for Macros/Secondaries (PotNit, CalNit, MagNit, MKP, MagSulf, PotSulf), and am relying on a Micro blend just to simplify, to minimise the amount of chemicals I have to deal with.
That might change in the near future, as I now spend more on "Essentials" (Micro elements only) than on anything else.
I'm using Nitric Acid as pH- in veg, phosphoric as pH- in flower, and Potassium Silicate as pH+ throughout.

Can I ask: what is the benefit of "max calcium uptake" wouldn't this work against the uptake of potassium, as both are cations? Apologies if this seems a silly question, I really don't understand the role of Calcium very well at all I'm afraid.
I am experimenting with trying to achieve high(er) brix levels in hydro which is very hard to do, but essentially, elevated calcium and potassium levels are part of the trick. Adequate calcium levels make stronger branches which my grow is and has mostly always lacked, mostly due to lack of calcium. I tried to add supplemental calcium via Cal Carbonate and Cal Acetate, both of which throttled the PH up and made that change a nightmare for a day. I've since reverted my calcium ambitions back down to around 105ppm from 120.

You have one more salt than me, lol. I do not have PotNit. Also, prior to making my own micro blend, I used to also use GH Flora Micro with my salts and got good results, but ultimately you'll want to acquire your own chelated micros and formulate your own blend. I got my blend from @nxsov180db and though it works good, I suspect a few things could use some tweaking, so in a few months when I finish my gallon, I will augment my micro targets and try something new. Here are my current targets and I am have fantastic results with.

Full Grow Targets.JPG
and here was my High Brix targets that I ran with for a few days, but I had to discontinue until I find a better secondary source of calcium that is more PH stable.

High Brix Targets.JPG

So what I am doing now is the High Brix chart, except I lowered my calcium target to 105 so that I can keep my nitrate below 100. If you want some great reading materials, I suggest reading these Blog Archives from the creator of Hydro Buddy (Daniel Fernandez). There is SO much great information in his articles. I read maybe a third of them, but intend to ultimately read them all.

https://scienceinhydroponics.com/blog-archive
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
Yeah this is a complex topic and will be different for each strain and grower. This is why nutrient ratio's are much more important than nutrient concentration (ppm). VPD is important to take into consideration and record when testing for optimal concentration. The same strength solution can cause nute burn in one setup and no problems in another. Great thread i found using multiple sources of the same nutrient to be the easiest to balance.
I feel the same way, but as best as my research is showing, we canna growers don't yet have our own ratios that are verified. Plus also, ratios are relative to the concentration of at least one element. Not being able to locate the ratios that I sought, I found someone (@im4satori and @nxsov180db ) to help me dial in the concentrations of each element, then I began testing minimal changes as I see plant expressions.

Here's a great article I just read last night about this topic;

https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2017/03/hydroponic-micro-and-macro-nutrient-sufficiency-ranges.html
 

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
I feel the same way, but as best as my research is showing, we canna growers don't yet have our own ratios that are verified. Plus also, ratios are relative to the concentration of at least one element. Not being able to locate the ratios that I sought, I found someone (@im4satori and @nxsov180db ) to help me dial in the concentrations of each element, then I began testing minimal changes as I see plant expressions.

Here's a great article I just read last night about this topic;

https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2017/03/hydroponic-micro-and-macro-nutrient-sufficiency-ranges.html
Yeah good article but also those optimal's will change based on several factors. A lot more studies will be coming out soon enough but i think these ratio's in relation to each other are the important factor not the ppm values. So we have a lot more info than is commonly thought. These ratio's will change during flowering stages but are relatively the same throughout veg. PPM is only relevant if all other factors are the same and this varies from grower to grower. If we have the ideal ratio's for different stages of growth then we could solve the equation of ppm for different stages of growth once and for all. Since you can measure your PPM in your solution to see how much the plant is eating. What we need is to not only find out how much the plant is eating in ppm but what nutrients that PPM is made up of while factoring in evaporation and other factors. If we can tell the exact uptake of each nutrient throughout the different stages of growth we have our answer for that specific strain under those specific conditions that may be able to be adjusted on a % basis using VPD and PPM

I think the general information out there gets us pretty close but until someone starts to study this we are kinda stuck at this point in time.
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
I think the general information out there gets us pretty close but until someone starts to study this we are kinda stuck at this point in time.
and that's the predicament we're in. Until Canna is descheduled (in the states), no AG universities are going to hammer these issues out, so the burden falls onto us growers for the time being and because of that is why I chose to abandon using ratios for now. The "ratio" argument, though very valid must remain on the back burner because as best I can tell, we have no known ratios for Canna/Hydro at this time.

In effort to kind of flesh out what is ideal (for me in potted rockwool), I've been heading in this direction, ie in pursuit of high brix hydro, which as I understand is damn near impossible for several reasons. But generally speaking, high brix means super healthy from balanced feed. That said, I got the refractometer as well as a PH meter that can measure the PH of just a few drops of something (leaf sap) and have been trying to bring my leaf sap PH to 6.4 for a little over a week now. I started at 6.1 and got it up to 6.3.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/high-brix-in-hydro-thoughts-facts-ideas-etc.81612/#post-1697051

First Test.jpg Higher PH.jpg
 

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
and that's the predicament we're in. Until Canna is descheduled (in the states), no AG universities are going to hammer these issues out, so the burden falls onto us growers for the time being and because of that is why I chose to abandon using ratios for now. The "ratio" argument, though very valid must remain on the back burner because as best I can tell, we have no known ratios for Canna/Hydro at this time.

In effort to kind of flesh out what is ideal (for me in potted rockwool), I've been heading in this direction, ie in pursuit of high brix hydro, which as I understand is damn near impossible for several reasons. But generally speaking, high brix means super healthy from balanced feed. That said, I got the refractometer as well as a PH meter that can measure the PH of just a few drops of something (leaf sap) and have been trying to bring my leaf sap PH to 6.4 for a little over a week now. I started at 6.1 and got it up to 6.3.

https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/high-brix-in-hydro-thoughts-facts-ideas-etc.81612/#post-1697051

View attachment 4328548 View attachment 4328549
I think we are going to see a lot more studies from legal states and Canada. Personally i think the ratio is the way go at the moment but only as a basic guideline since we don't have the studies cannabis specific yet. But we do have studies involving very similar plants. PPM is easy enough to check and change based on what your plant is telling you by the daily readings. I'm not overly familiar with brix but get the idea behind it.Its probably a good next step also but is also lacking specific cannabis info so far and cannot provide the information on the specific nutrient ratio's but rather possibly the contents of mobile nutrients in the sap. This could be much different than the amount of a nutrient that is being taken up by the plant.
 
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Skybound420

Well-Known Member
@Skybound420 can you get a chelated calcium?

I use this https://shopfront.solufeed.co.uk/solufeed-ca-95-edta-226-p.asp
The manufacturer says it's 3 times more effective than regular calcium, so 33.3 Mg/L is equivalent to 100 Mg/L they say..
It works great as a foliar too.

Also keeping concentrations of K low in the recirculating solution will aid and increase Ca uptake.

Peace
BL
I actually have that, though I have Akzo Nobel Dissolvine. When I bought mine, CustomHydro advertised that for each gram, you get 25ppm Ca and 33ppm of Na. They've taken out the language regarding the sodium, so even if they've taken the sodium out of the calcium disodium ( :lol: ), there's still the EDTA to contend with. I've read that most chelators are poisonous at higher concentrations. So they're fine for chelating trace metals, but calcium is used at a much higher concentration.
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
What are the odds I can get you guys to share your feed charts and/or targets/ratios? I'd love to see what others are using and what they like/dislike about it.
 

Billy Liar

Well-Known Member
I actually have that, though I have Akzo Nobel Dissolvine. When I bought mine, CustomHydro advertised that for each gram, you get 25ppm Ca and 33ppm of Na. They've taken out the language regarding the sodium, so even if they've taken the sodium out of the calcium disodium ( :lol: ), there's still the EDTA to contend with. I've read that most chelators are poisonous at higher concentrations. So they're fine for chelating trace metals, but calcium is used at a much higher concentration.
I must say I'm surprised at how much Na that brings along for the ride... I'll contact solufeed and ask them to confirm that for the product I've got. I've spoken with them before and they said there's only a very small amount of Na.. but I've used the Ca 9.5 in quite high amounts successfully.
But it's definitely a good foliar feed used little and often which may help get more Ca into the plant.

As for target ratios I copy the jacks formula pretty much, but roughly halve the N as I use Nitric acid for pH correction. Plants seem to prefer N added in more frequently IME.

Peace
BL
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
I must say I'm surprised at how much Na that brings along for the ride... I'll contact solufeed and ask them to confirm that for the product I've got. I've spoken with them before and they said there's only a very small amount of Na.. but I've used the Ca 9.5 in quite high amounts successfully.
But it's definitely a good foliar feed used little and often which may help get more Ca into the plant.

As for target ratios I copy the jacks formula pretty much, but roughly halve the N as I use Nitric acid for pH correction. Plants seem to prefer N added in more frequently IME.

Peace
BL
IDK why, but on CustomHydro's site, if you work your way into the calcium products, then get to the Dissolvine page, there's no mention of the sodium. Yet, when I search the topic here and retrieve the link Satori pasted in another thread, the link is still valid and it still retrieves the page that states 32ppm of sodium to the 25ppm of calcium. Strange, but it's there and I can't pretend I didn't see that.

https://customhydronutrients.com/calcium-edta-chelated-97-20-pound-bucket-p-764.html?cPath=1_47_452&zenid=44ffa2a794be7db2a31627d7212fb785

I also bought the Chelated Calcium that's good for foliar or root amending. I've never did foliar spraying, well not regularly, in the years I've been growing, but I've made peace with the fact that the only way I'm going to get my added calcium is via foliar sprays.
 

HydroLynx

Well-Known Member
Here in the UK at least, GHE's labels are thus:
View attachment 4328410

The 6% Potassium Silicate solution product I've been using (Silicon Max) also lists the % of the oxide content, as does the CalMag product I've used in the past. The NPK label values are mandated by EU legislation, I'm not sure whether the others are, but it made my calculations simpler, in some ways, to follow that convention for easier comparison.
Interesting. Well I got a bottle here, Im from South Africa. Your bottle says 3% Mg and 5% S, while mine says 18.8g/l Mg and 19.4g/L S. So it maybe there is labeling law differences.

MgO vs Mg:
MgO = 60% Mg (from Lentech molecular weight calculator)
3% MgO * 60% = 1.8% or 18g/l....so Mg on your and my bottle both match in actual concentration, but are just labelled differnetly

Just check sulfur too:
SO3 = 40% S
5%S *40% = 2% or 20g/l (becauase x% = x grams per 100ml). which is close enough to the 19.4g/l that I got.

Actually my bottle says "g/kg" not g/l, which may account for the slight differences. I have to think a bit more.
 

Attachments

Diatomacious

Active Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think soils can be mapped out like hydro can due to the fact in organics, you have to provide more than is needed, yet what the plant gets is what the microbes produce/make available.
It can be done but you would need a laboratory to analyze each organic amendment for percent composition of plant essential nutrient. The agricultural dept. can usually do this for a low fee. In soil micronutrients are usually not a problem... in soilless though you would need to amend the micronutrient as hitting the NPK plus all the micros with all natural products would be extremely difficult. In my experience though organic and chemical are the same... you just need to know the chemical composition of your organic (like MgSO4 is 9.86% magnesium). It should be quite easy to hit the NPK and calculate the trace minerals from the organic and then boost levels for any deficient elements the organics did not supply (copper is usually one of them, iron is never a problem).
 

Diatomacious

Active Member
In Hydro Buddy, there are drop down menus for P>P2O5, K>K2O and Si>SiO2 which allows me to input either the refactored values, or the oxide, whatever is listed. IDK what's available in Europe, but EVERY hydro grower would be much better served to acquire nutrient salts. I mixed my own chelated micro blend and have been using it for the past month or so. Because I am able to dial in my micros to perfection, it is much easier to target all of the macros and secondaries. Those are where the changes are made throughout the grow. My feed usually resolves in an EC range of 1.0-1.4 which is perfect for max calcium uptake. All in all, I am nowe growing the best cannabis I've grown in 5 years and I used GH Flora series for about 4 of those years.
I'd love to see the ppm numbers you finally settled on for that grow.
 

Diatomacious

Active Member
What are the odds I can get you guys to share your feed charts and/or targets/ratios? I'd love to see what others are using and what they like/dislike about it.
I'm just getting into mixing but I must admit the best results I ever got using chemical fertilizer was with a fertilizer created for feeding with every watering. I was growing in soilless and the fertilizer was a Miracle Grow product (I think... been a while). You added like 10 drops per gallon of water and fed with every watering... I might have reduced to 6 drops a gallon by the end due to nute burn but results were amazing. Just wish I knew what the ppm's were.
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
To start off, I made a tutorial on 420 for using Hydro Buddy, mixing nutes as well as a few different nutrient regimens I've used. Another grower tried to mix to my targets, but his plants were in peat which behaves a lot differently than potted rockwool which is what I use. That said, he started to contract all sorts of problems and had to revert to the semi successful regimen he was using prior.

My Hydro Buddy Tutorial

I'm just about done with my 2nd batch of micros and am considering screwing around with Megacrop's formulation, but TBH, I'm discontinuing hydro very soon and am getting into soil, so I won't be putting too much more effort into fleshing out better hydro numbers.

Also, I just had SEVERE trouble when experimenting with ammoniacal levels of N. Megacrop's 19:1 ratio of nitrate to ammonium is what got me out of those woods, but I already keep my nitrate fairly low so this leaves my NH4 content to be nearly non-existent.

The micro nutrient formulations I've tried successfully are as follows;

........1.....2
Fe....2....2.5
Mn...1....1.2
B.....0.3..0.5
Zn...0.3...0.5
Cu...0.2...0.3
Mo..0.05...0.1

When you mix your micros into a separate jug, then it's just a standard dose per gallon (or liter) every res change and then those numbers are locked in so long as you use that jug of nutes. Beyond that, you become liberated in what you can do when targeting your macros and secondaries which is how you have the most influence in the way your plant grows. For micros, I only tried the above 2 formulations, but macros I easily tried 15 different formulations. My plants started super healthy with literally one or two leaves showing signs of def, so I sought out to correct those extremely minor deficiencies which then opened me up to many more problems that slaughtered my yields. I went from regularly harvesting a pound or more per plant down to about 6 ounce per plant. I just took an Em Dog for 6 ounces, but the Pineapple Chunk I'll drop in 3 weeks should do about 20 ounces, so I believe I'm out of the woods.

B/c I'm expanding my op, I can't run 9 reservoirs as the weight will crush the building, and is why I'm switching to soil. I'll yield less per plant, but be able to take a plant per week and the weed will be high brix which should make it a lot better.

My current macro targets are as follows;
----------V/S---------Mid B---------Late B
NO3 - 114 ---------- 95 ------------- 80
NH4 -- 05 ----------- 0
P --------65 ----------------------------- 50
K ------ 170 ---------- 180 ------------ 190
Ca ---- 115 ----------------------------- 100
Mg ----- 45 ----------- 50
S ------- 50 ----------- 100
Si ------- 25 ------------------------------- 20

FWIW, V/S means Veg and Stretch. This formulation in rockwool is damn near perfect and my leaves are evenly green with a waxy sheen and only minimal reddening of petioles. When experimenting with any other formulation it is imperative to consider the effects that the changes will have on calcium as it is easily blocked from uptake, albeit by other cations, P, S, PH, RH and Temps. Any one of those can limit Ca uptake which then leads to a cascading shit show of problems. That's what killed me for like 2 months. I tried to elevate NH4 to 10% of total N and it killed calcium as well as created a severe N toxicity. I could have jacked up the K to alleviate the N tox, but K is also a cation and would have further blocked Ca from being taken up. The above seems to be a happy range for all elements while not blocking the Ca.
 
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