Old 600w HPS bulbs = low yield ??

fartoblue

fartoblue

Well-Known Member
My transition to RDWC has not been smooth with 2 disastrous crops. My latest (11 Roses from Delicious seeds, grown from seed) provided less than 1/3 the yield I would have expected from my Coco grows. Buds were just very light and airy.

Had a little root rot early on just before flip (which I successfully treated with Hydro guard), res temps always around 18 celcius. Maybe low humidity with lights on 30%. Slight thrip problem was easily sorted just before flip with permethrin.

Temps around 25 day, 19 night PH always between 5.5 and 6.5, feeding at 1.2 ec max reducing from week 7 then 3 day flush. Changed res at flip and 3 weeks later then at 7 weeks. I took the plants to 9 weeks, breeder says 8 weeks.

I have 4 x 600w HPS 18" above 8 plants, and plenty air bubbles underneath them ( air compressor 70w - 80 lpm divided between the 8 plants) The plants were veged for a very long time due to circumstances and had to be super cropped almost in half from 5 feet tall (stretchy) then given a 3-4 days to recover before flip, but have looked very healthy throughout.

My only other explanation could be using old HPS, the general consensus here in the UK is only change your bulbs when they won't light up or go pop.

I could see any of the above causing a below average grow but not to such an extreme.

After I chopped roots were brown (I use GH 3 part) but no rot plants all healthy Canna boost at recommended dose.

Any ideas?
 
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JSB99

JSB99

Well-Known Member
fartoblue said:
My transition to RDWC has not been smooth with 2 disastrous crops. My latest (11 Roses from Delicious seeds, grown from seed) provided less than 1/3 the yield I would have expected from my Coco grows. Buds were just very light and airy.

Had a little root rot early on just before flip (which I successfully treated with Hydro guard), res temps always around 18 celcius. Maybe low humidity with lights on 30%. Slight thrip problem was easily sorted just before flip with permethrin.

Temps around 25 day, 19 night PH always between 5.5 and 6.5, feeding at 1.2 ec max reducing from week 7 then 3 day flush. Changed res at flip and 3 weeks later then at 7 weeks. I took the plants to 9 weeks, breeder says 8 weeks.

I have 4 x 600w HPS 18" above 8 plants, and plenty air bubbles underneath them ( air compressor 70w - 80 lpm divided between the 8 plants) The plants were veged for a very long time due to circumstances and had to be super cropped almost in half from 5 feet tall (stretchy) then given a 3-4 days to recover before flip, but have looked very healthy throughout.

My only other explanation could be using old HPS, the general consensus here in the UK is only change your bulbs when they won't light up or go pop.

I could see any of the above causing a below average grow but not to such an extreme.

After I chopped roots were brown (I use GH 3 part) but no rot plants all healthy Canna boost at recommended dose.

Any ideas?
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You need to change your bulbs way before they actually burn out. They lose significant luminocity over time, but will appear just as bright. When they get old, they also run hotter. Some people replace them after a year, while others (like myself) go three grows. It also depends on if you use HPS through the entire grow, which is recommended, instead of using both MH and HPS.

Your plants probably stretched like they did, because they weren't getting sufficient, useable light. It would also explain the puffy nugs. Think of how lower buds on a plant are fluffy. They are like that because of the lack of light (or from heat issues, which it doesn't sound like you're having).

5.5 to 6.5 is a little wide of range for your pH. Ideally, 5.8 to 6.0 is where you want to be, in order to transport all the nutrients throughout the plants.

How you take care of your soup, and the amount your system holds, is a good determination of how often you need to flush. I don't flush at all, and my roots are always white. I've also never used hydrogaurd. There are many things that go into this, but done properly, your roots will stay healthy.

I'd stay away from boosters and supplements. Go with something very simple, like GH Maxi Gro, and Maxi Bloom, and that's all. Get your system stable, then if you want to experiment later, go for it. I only use the Maxi series, and always have superb results! I've never used boosters. If you keep things very simple, it'll make finding the source of problems, much easier.

All the things I listed above are enough to cause all the issues you're seeing, especially the lights, in your case.
 
M

McFrosticles

Well-Known Member
A mate of mine gave me 2 HPS (philips and a lumatek), said they'd only been used for 3-4 months. I then added an extra light going into the third week of flower, just a cheap one from the grow shop so paid over the odds. The brightness really hurt my eyes off it and had to wear glasses working around the plants under it.

After seeing the difference in brightness I then got 2 sunmaster super hps deluxe from amazon and overnight the difference was unbelievable. Past few days everything swelling and looking frosty, even the lower stuff, maybe it's just the time they swell and get frosty but it was pretty much an overnight change.

If I was to grow again I'd use those new ones for veg and get new bulbs again when flipping, maybe overkill but only needs to produce a half oz to justify itself
 
JSB99

JSB99

Well-Known Member
McFrosticles said:
A mate of mine gave me 2 HPS (philips and a lumatek), said they'd only been used for 3-4 months. I then added an extra light going into the third week of flower, just a cheap one from the grow shop so paid over the odds. The brightness really hurt my eyes off it and had to wear glasses working around the plants under it.

After seeing the difference in brightness I then got 2 sunmaster super hps deluxe from amazon and overnight the difference was unbelievable. Past few days everything swelling and looking frosty, even the lower stuff, maybe it's just the time they swell and get frosty but it was pretty much an overnight change.

If I was to grow again I'd use those new ones for veg and get new bulbs again when flipping, maybe overkill but only needs to produce a half oz to justify itself
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I know that some people change them out each grow, but I think that's overkill. If you use the inexpensive Phillips HPS bulbs, then sure. They're only around $20us. But if you use an Eye Hortilux, which runs around $65us, then I would say you're throwing your money away. Especially if you have multiple lights.

I highly doubt you would see any difference between a first and second grow, using the same light, even if it was the one of the cheaper brands.

I use an EH 1000w HPS, and I replace it once a year, which is around 3 grows. I think $65/yr is reasonable, compared to $195/yr, if I were to change it out after each grow.
 
M

McFrosticles

Well-Known Member
JSB99 said:
I know that some people change them out each grow, but I think that's overkill. If you use the inexpensive Phillips HPS bulbs, then sure. They're only around $20us. But if you use an Eye Hortilux, which runs around $65us, then I would say you're throwing your money away. Especially if you have multiple lights.

I highly doubt you would see any difference between a first and second grow, using the same light, even if it was the one of the cheaper brands.

I use an EH 1000w HPS, and I replace it once a year, which is around 3 grows. I think $65/yr is reasonable, compared to $195/yr, if I were to change it out after each grow.
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Yeah on reflection maybe not every grow, I'd maybe save the newer ones for flower and use the older ones in veg a little closer to the plant
 
JSB99

JSB99

Well-Known Member
McFrosticles said:
Yeah on reflection maybe not every grow, I'd maybe save the newer ones for flower and use the older ones in veg a little closer to the plant
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Don't forget that older bulbs will run hotter, so you may not be able to get them close enough. I use my $20 Phillips for veg, and a week or two flower, then switch to the Eye Hortilux to finish them. After three grows I replace them both.
 
70's natureboy

70's natureboy

Well-Known Member
Have you grown Roses before? Seed buying is a crap shoot for me. I buy more duds than keepers. I don't notice and drop in yields with old bulbs in my keeper strains. I run them until they die. Permethrin will set them back if you aren't careful. I think your lack of yield is strain dependent.

I try to keep everything simple like JSB99 but I can't get that dang Maxibloom to mix. I'll have to try it again since I have a full bag. I never have problems with Floranova but the 3 part is just fine.
 
TacoMac

TacoMac

Well-Known Member
fartoblue said:
the general consensus here in the UK is only change your bulbs when they won't light up or go pop.
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Then the general populous consist of patent idiots.

The general rule is that you get about 50% of a bulbs rated life at max performance. After that, it begins to drop off. Example:

The typical 600 watt HPS bulb has a life expectancy of 24,000 hours. So for about 12,000 hours the bulb is going to perform as advertised. After that, it's going to start to slowly lose its spectrum. As the bulb gets older, it will begin to lose spectrum faster and faster.

So the safe bet is to replace after 12,000 hours. You can always hold on to one or two to keep as spares just in case you have a mishap with a bulb. Then you can throw one of them back in until you order a replacement in.

To put that into perspective: The typical grow with HPS is a 12 on 12 off schedule for 10 weeks. That means that each grow you're putting 840 hours per flower on the bulb. Now, if you grow year 'round, that means that you put 4,380 hours per year on the bulb, so in just under three years, it's gone. If you've had one any longer than that, it's garbage.

Now, you'll hear some people talk about time in months. They're full of it. A bulb doesn't age in days, weeks, months or years, it ages in hours used. Some also say that you should replace a bulb every X number of hours no matter what. That too is ridiculous.

Half the rated life. That's what you get. That's why it's important to keep a log running on your bulbs just as carefully as you do on your feeding schedule.
 
coreywebster

coreywebster

Well-Known Member
Everyone I know in UK change bulbs every couple of grows and thats assuming they are only flowering with them.
Get some omega bulbs, not dual spectrum, they are the best of the cheaper bulbs.
Change your res a bit more often.
Keep your ph in a narrower range.
Roots will go brown with canna boost, it dyes them.
The most likely cause without knowing your experience or seeing your grow is chopping a week or two early.
Fuck what the breeder says they aren't running your set up.
 
M

McFrosticles

Well-Known Member
TacoMac said:
Then the general populous consist of patent idiots.

The general rule is that you get about 50% of a bulbs rated life at max performance. After that, it begins to drop off. Example:

The typical 600 watt HPS bulb has a life expectancy of 24,000 hours. So for about 12,000 hours the bulb is going to perform as advertised. After that, it's going to start to slowly lose its spectrum. As the bulb gets older, it will begin to lose spectrum faster and faster.

So the safe bet is to replace after 12,000 hours. You can always hold on to one or two to keep as spares just in case you have a mishap with a bulb. Then you can throw one of them back in until you order a replacement in.

To put that into perspective: The typical grow with HPS is a 12 on 12 off schedule for 10 weeks. That means that each grow you're putting 840 hours per flower on the bulb. Now, if you grow year 'round, that means that you put 4,380 hours per year on the bulb, so in just under three years, it's gone. If you've had one any longer than that, it's garbage.

Now, you'll hear some people talk about time in months. They're full of it. A bulb doesn't age in days, weeks, months or years, it ages in hours used. Some also say that you should replace a bulb every X number of hours no matter what. That too is ridiculous.

Half the rated life. That's what you get. That's why it's important to keep a log running on your bulbs just as carefully as you do on your feeding schedule.
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Very informative thanks!
 
JSB99

JSB99

Well-Known Member
TacoMac said:
Then the general populous consist of patent idiots.

The general rule is that you get about 50% of a bulbs rated life at max performance. After that, it begins to drop off. Example:

The typical 600 watt HPS bulb has a life expectancy of 24,000 hours. So for about 12,000 hours the bulb is going to perform as advertised. After that, it's going to start to slowly lose its spectrum. As the bulb gets older, it will begin to lose spectrum faster and faster.

So the safe bet is to replace after 12,000 hours. You can always hold on to one or two to keep as spares just in case you have a mishap with a bulb. Then you can throw one of them back in until you order a replacement in.

To put that into perspective: The typical grow with HPS is a 12 on 12 off schedule for 10 weeks. That means that each grow you're putting 840 hours per flower on the bulb. Now, if you grow year 'round, that means that you put 4,380 hours per year on the bulb, so in just under three years, it's gone. If you've had one any longer than that, it's garbage.

Now, you'll hear some people talk about time in months. They're full of it. A bulb doesn't age in days, weeks, months or years, it ages in hours used. Some also say that you should replace a bulb every X number of hours no matter what. That too is ridiculous.

Half the rated life. That's what you get. That's why it's important to keep a log running on your bulbs just as carefully as you do on your feeding schedule.
Click to expand...
Well explained!

I mentioned that I go about a year. That's based on continued use throughout the year, for both veg and flower. So, 18hrs on for six to eight weeks, then another eight to twelve weeks at 12hrs on.
 
TacoMac

TacoMac

Well-Known Member
JSB99 said:
Well explained!

I mentioned that I go about a year. That's based on continued use throughout the year, for both veg and flower. So, 18hrs on for six to eight weeks, then another eight to twelve weeks at 12hrs on.
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A friend of mine does auto flowers on a 24/7 schedule. He goes through them every year.
 
fartoblue

fartoblue

Well-Known Member
Many thanks for all of your replies. All of my bulbs have become mixed up so I have no idea how old they are some could be 3 years old from my first ever grow. Think I will change the lot.
My other bother is getting PH drops rather than PH increase like most lads do in RDWC. Also some rusting along the leaf veins.
 
fartoblue

fartoblue

Well-Known Member
xtsho said:
I change my bulbs out every couple of grows I buy the Vivosun enhanced spectrum for under $20. I get the same results as I have gotten with the more expensive bulbs.
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I've been looking at The Sylvania Grolux 600w HPS around £23.00 each. Anyone used them?
 
TacoMac

TacoMac

Well-Known Member
JSB99 said:
Should work just as well as any other $20 HPS. They aren't anything special, but it'll still get the job done. Nothing wrong with using a low-priced bulb, especially from a well known manufacturer like Sylvania.
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Ummmm...ahem...

Just a few years ago, Sylvania had to settle a class action lawsuit for false claims on their bulbs. They actually engineered them to fail while advertising longer life expectancy. It costs them just over 30 million dollars.

But you are correct in the premise. I use Yield Labs bulbs exclusively. They're very cheap, very good at what they do and the only problem I've ever had from them is one showed up broken once. They replaced it no questions asked.
 
JSB99

JSB99

Well-Known Member
TacoMac said:
Ummmm...ahem...

Just a few years ago, Sylvania had to settle a class action lawsuit for false claims on their bulbs. They actually engineered them to fail while advertising longer life expectancy. It costs them just over 30 million dollars.

But you are correct in the premise. I use Yield Labs bulbs exclusively. They're very cheap, very good at what they do and the only problem I've ever had from them is one showed up broken once. They replaced it no questions asked.
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Ah ha, glad you stepped in :). Yeah, when I get less expensive bulbs, I usually get the iPower or Vivosun. Never really considered GE, or any of the other larger manufacturers. Its probably just a mental thing, but like to go with companies who specializes in the growing industry, not a company who just adds them to their catalog of other lights. But, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there's anything wrong with them, except with issues like what you described.
 
fartoblue

fartoblue

Well-Known Member
TacoMac said:
Ummmm...ahem...

Just a few years ago, Sylvania had to settle a class action lawsuit for false claims on their bulbs. They actually engineered them to fail while advertising longer life expectancy. It costs them just over 30 million dollars.

But you are correct in the premise. I use Yield Labs bulbs exclusively. They're very cheap, very good at what they do and the only problem I've ever had from them is one showed up broken once. They replaced it no questions asked.
Click to expand...
Mmmm will give them a miss for that reason alone
 
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