Old room, New electrical problem

I have a room with four 1k watt lights. Hortilux bulbs, mixed brand hoods, lumatek ballasts. The ballasts are plugged directly into a C.A.P. 4 light controller which is wired with 240 directly to it's own 30 amp breaker. The C.A.P. 4 light controller is plugged into a digital timer, which plugs directly into a wall outlet which is wired along with the other receptacles in the room to a 20 amp breaker. This wiring is by no means new. I haven't changed anything in this room for quite a while.

Today I was working under green light while waiting for the lights to switch on so I can get busy. I checked my phone and realize they should have flipped on 7 minutes ago.

I checked the the timer and it was set to the right time and displayed that power was being sent to turn the 4 light controller on. I checked the 4 light controller and sure enough the orange light is on indicating power from the wall outlet. At this point went to the breaker box to see if there was anything going on at the breaker. The breaker was fully in the on position. I figured I would reset the breaker by flipping it off and back on. The breaker turned off just fine, but would not turn back on. After a small amount of online research I assumed there may be a short somewhere which. I checked all the bulbs and the one had popped. Although sketchy, I hoped I had found the problem. I unplugged the ballast controlling the troubled hood from the 4 light controller and went back to the breaker box. I was able to switch the breaker to the on position. I go back to the room and nothing had changed. No lights. As of right now I have the 4 light controller unplugged from the wall outlet and I have a cfl in there attempting to simulate day light.

Does anybody have any idea what the hell is going on?

ok first thing to do is to take your stuff and test it on anouther circut .....one by one

if they work then u know the problem is between the break the wire and the outlets

what are the outlets are they the old ones of the new ones that cost 1.19 ( the one the home inspectors will say u have to have before u can sell the house )

Take my stuff and test it on another circuit. If you expect me to take your response with any weight you have to be more specific than that? You mean disconnect the 4 light controller and all of the hoods, bring them to another room, connect a different 240 wire that runs to a different breaker to the 4 light controller and see if it works? If that's what your recommending, its not an option. If not, please elaborate.

well if the 4 light controller/power unit .is chained if there is fault inside one of them that is cuasing it to fault out and not light up u will know

just need one light socket and the 4 controllers (if they are chained )...........if all 4 of them light up then the wiring on the chain might need to be corrected but since u took it off it will be as u hook it back

but u now know that the controllers are not the fault in the system ...........check the wiring on the hoods if they are chaind/ganged .....i am not sure the correct term but u on 30 amp break sounds like they are chained u only need what a 15 20 for a hi powered dryer

u basically have to start from the socket and work your way down triple checking if a wire looks bad or old replace .....once u have done this then u know it is ......the outlet sockets....the wiring to the socket....the breaker...the pannel

my father is a one of those guys he taught me to start with the gear first then if not that it is the outlet ot a break in the line or a bad breaker or the pannel needs a inspection might have damage

Justugh is giving solid advice. The first thing he told you to do was to swap out the breaker (just in case the breaker isn't giving power and its rare but can sometimes happen after a fault). But on the same token it probably wasn't the breaker that caused the problem to begin with and that's why he's correct in telling you to start checking your lighting gear. I actually had a wire going to the hot middle prong of a 600 watt hps ground out with the metal handi box that held the lamp socket. It tripped the breaker too. If not that maybe something else. Get that continuity /voltage tester handy, but just remember not to stick the voltage leads in the lamp socket while its turned on because the high frequency (Hz) of the ballast will destroy your electrical tester.

i asked my father about this

30 amps is a shit load ........before i got anywhere else telling him about what u wrote he said it sounds like he is overloading the curcut....to tell for sure he would have to have a look at it

his advice was the same thing he did in his own home .......he illegally added a second smaller pannel ( the illegal part is he did not get premits and tell them he was doing it he has a inspector training and was in the trade for 15 years before he went to his job at betchel .....it was done all correct and safe....34 years not one fire was mis hooked up sockets tho).......i never knew this the whole basement in the house is illegal ....i do not know if u have the skills to do it but here is a pics of what he had done(the house was built for him/mom ) he wired the whole basement and 2nd pannel in



as u know the wires are on the 30 amp and those on the 20 amp most of the work is done just get someone that knows code(if u need i can give u a link to download the national electrical code book private msg me)

I went ahead and replaced the breaker today. I plug in the three good lights and nothing.

I then got busy with a volt meter. First, I removed the cover of the 4 light controller and tested the 240 wire coming in. The two power lines read 120 each. Perfect. I then tested the ballast/hood connection on the ballast once it was plugged into the light controller. It read 120 as well. I wasn't sure what to expect when taking that reading so I took a controlled test from a ballast I know works in another room. It read 32 volts. This ballast positively runs a 1k watt bulb with a 32 volt reading. I thought my problem room was solved, but when I insert a bulb and plug the four light controller in, nothing.... again. The one spot I hadn't tested was the socket where the bulb connects. I tested that spot and it came in at 83. I tried switching bulbs around, even tried a brand new bulb, still nothing.

After all this I took a ballast and hood from another room. This ballast and hood are controlled by a different light controller box, which is wired with the same style 240 wire, and connected to the same style 30 amp breaker as the trouble room. This ballast and hood work perfectly in this room. I take them to the trouble room, hook them into the 4 light control box, nothing. I don't get it. There seems to be power running through everything, but my bulbs will not light up.

Does anybody have any ideas?

Below is a link to an imgur photo album pertaining to the burnt out bulb and the volt meter tests.
I went ahead and replaced the breaker today. I plug in the three good lights and nothing.

I then got busy with a volt meter. First, I removed the cover of the 4 light controller and tested the 240 wire coming in. The two power lines read 120 each. Perfect. I then tested the ballast/hood connection on the ballast once it was plugged into the light controller. It read 120 as well. I wasn't sure what to expect when taking that reading so I took a controlled test from a ballast I know works in another room. It read 32 volts. This ballast positively runs a 1k watt bulb with a 32 volt reading. I thought my problem room was solved, but when I insert a bulb and plug the four light controller in, nothing.... again. The one spot I hadn't tested was the socket where the bulb connects. I tested that spot and it came in at 83. I tried switching bulbs around, even tried a brand new bulb, still nothing.

After all this I took a ballast and hood from another room. This ballast and hood are controlled by a different light controller box, which is wired with the same style 240 wire, and connected to the same style 30 amp breaker as the trouble room. This ballast and hood work perfectly in this room. I take them to the trouble room, hook them into the 4 light control box, nothing. I don't get it. There seems to be power running through everything, but my bulbs will not light up.

Does anybody have any ideas?

Below is a link to an imgur album.

http://imgur.com/a/4XyjW

If you're saying you see 83V at the socket, it's definitely a short, and very dangerous. I'm guessing maybe one of the mechanical relays in the controller failed and is shorting.

You really need to isolate that short whether it's one of the ballasts or the controller. Unplug each ballast and see if the others on the same controller turn on. Are you running the "simulated day" CFL off the same controller with no problems or does that fail too?

Whatever it is, a short is very dangerous and could start a fire or kill you. Make sure you're wearing shoes with thick rubber bottoms (sneakers or boots).

bigdog123 said:

I went ahead and replaced the breaker today. I plug in the three good lights and nothing.

I then got busy with a volt meter. First, I removed the cover of the 4 light controller and tested the 240 wire coming in. The two power lines read 120 each. Perfect. I then tested the ballast/hood connection on the ballast once it was plugged into the light controller. It read 120 as well. I wasn't sure what to expect when taking that reading so I took a controlled test from a ballast I know works in another room. It read 32 volts. This ballast positively runs a 1k watt bulb with a 32 volt reading. I thought my problem room was solved, but when I insert a bulb and plug the four light controller in, nothing.... again. The one spot I hadn't tested was the socket where the bulb connects. I tested that spot and it came in at 83. I tried switching bulbs around, even tried a brand new bulb, still nothing.

After all this I took a ballast and hood from another room. This ballast and hood are controlled by a different light controller box, which is wired with the same style 240 wire, and connected to the same style 30 amp breaker as the trouble room. This ballast and hood work perfectly in this room. I take them to the trouble room, hook them into the 4 light control box, nothing. I don't get it. There seems to be power running through everything, but my bulbs will not light up.

Does anybody have any ideas?

Below is a link to an imgur photo album pertaining to the burnt out bulb and the volt meter tests.
I went ahead and replaced the breaker today. I plug in the three good lights and nothing.

I then got busy with a volt meter. First, I removed the cover of the 4 light controller and tested the 240 wire coming in. The two power lines read 120 each. Perfect. I then tested the ballast/hood connection on the ballast once it was plugged into the light controller. It read 120 as well. I wasn't sure what to expect when taking that reading so I took a controlled test from a ballast I know works in another room. It read 32 volts. This ballast positively runs a 1k watt bulb with a 32 volt reading. I thought my problem room was solved, but when I insert a bulb and plug the four light controller in, nothing.... again. The one spot I hadn't tested was the socket where the bulb connects. I tested that spot and it came in at 83. I tried switching bulbs around, even tried a brand new bulb, still nothing.

After all this I took a ballast and hood from another room. This ballast and hood are controlled by a different light controller box, which is wired with the same style 240 wire, and connected to the same style 30 amp breaker as the trouble room. This ballast and hood work perfectly in this room. I take them to the trouble room, hook them into the 4 light control box, nothing. I don't get it. There seems to be power running through everything, but my bulbs will not light up.

Does anybody have any ideas?

Below is a link to an imgur album.

http://imgur.com/a/4XyjW

Click to expand...

Hello,

Sorry, disregard my last post. I'm actually not sure about what that socket open circuit voltage is supposed to be.

"Whatever it is, a short is very dangerous and could start a fire or kill you. Make sure you're wearing shoes with thick rubber bottoms (sneakers or boots)."


LOL...sneakers or boots won't protect you from being electrocuted...Is that kinda like you car tires will keep you safe if your car gets hit by lightning?

So far you are on the right track. You ruled out the breaker (it is not the problem) and you swapped out the fixture (also not the problem). I would like you to test the voltage coming from the timer which activates the cap 4- light controller. I am assuming that this controller uses a contactor to hold closed the lighting circuits (am I correct?). Even though you have an indicator light on the timer telling you that it is on and doing what it should, when it should, there is a possibility that the contacts within the timer have gotten dirty or the contacts within the controller that is connected to the timer circuit have been damaged (contacts from an automatic switch/timer can get dirty over time) and may be increasing the resistance to the point of a voltage drop which will prevent your controller from operating when the timer calls it on. I could be wrong and I may have misunderstood your situation, but it does seem like the problem is somewhere within the timer control circuit and the associated contacts within the 4-light controller.If this controller is indeed a lighting contactor you may also want to check the load side contacts (the terminals that give power to each 1000 watt ballast) for full 120V output (I'm assuming 120V ballasts and 1-pole (or 1 hot wire) for each ballast).

sir ......

if u are worried about getting hurt messing with this............ask a buddy u trust to come over and give them a good solid peice of wood 6/8 feet for lever action .....if they see u getting a shock they can use the wood to break u from the line and then get help to u fairly fast ...aslong as the current does not pass over the heart u will be fine but if it does u need someone with CPR training close

justugh said:

sir ......

if u are worried about getting hurt messing with this............ask a buddy u trust to come over and give them a good solid peice of wood 6/8 feet for lever action .....if they see u getting a shock they can use the wood to break u from the line and then get help to u fairly fast ...aslong as the current does not pass over the heart u will be fine but if it does u need someone with CPR training close

Click to expand...

I never claimed to be worried about getting hurt. Someone was just trying to give me a random bit of advice. Do you have any input based on those volt readings?

if u like i will help and do some looking up .............

what is the brand controller u are using /model number.............if they have faults or flaws a look up will show the common ones and fixes
and the brand/ model number of the hoods............ditto
that is to get the baseline on what is standard
u gave us the readings u got ......i will see the old man tomarrow after noon i will pick his head and look up the national standards


as for the abnormal socket reading............2 possible things the socket(outlet) has been wore/damaged and replacing it would fix it (1.19 homedepot trip) ...........if the readings are still odd from the socket...............sir i am truly sorry the wire is bad .......u said the house is old ......when u replace the socket look at the wire and ID it ....u will get the techinal specs from the guy in home depot if they have a idea about wire.........u could be running old wire under the new code now .....it depends on the builder and if they cheapo and pocketed/ if they did it to code at the time and nothing more /or if they went for the over kill factor becuase they for sawl the need....then u have ppl hanging pics did they poke it and mice and lighting strikes

there is one other factor for a short time during building they were allowed to use allumun wire instead of copper....this could be the problem copper is much more effective in transfering higher amounts .....u might have been wired with this and since u have not tried to push this much on the current tho the wires and they finally failed

from the sound of what u have done

the wire or a fault/bad controller are the 2 most likey cuases (u removed all the other varibles ) .........i ordered a t5 set up less then 21 days ago one of the ballast had a fault in it and 4 of my lights are dead ............i proved it to the ppl that sent to me they are replacing the whole fixture at there cost

By now I have tested a ballast, hood, bulb setup in a proper room, where the equipment worked. I then brought the same setup into the problem room and tried it, it did not work. I just found an absolute difference between the proper room and the problem room.

I tested all of the ballast/hood connections on the ballasts in the proper room. The volt readings were slightly different at each ballast. They ranged from 18-32. I then went into the trouble room and tested all of the ballast/hood connections. The volt readings ranged from 72-110. More than double at the lowest reading and more than triple the highest. Coincidentally, the ballast that tested a 110 volt reading was hooked up to the hood wherein the bulb popped. In conclusion the problem room's ballasts are putting out much higher amount of volts. Hopefully someone can help solve this problem based on these readings.

My next plan is to disconnect the 4 light controller from the proper room and rewire it in the problem room to see if one box may be having an issue in regulating the amount of volts it puts out. I'm not sure if that would even make sense. I'm just trying to use my common sense to isolate the problem.

Thanks to everyone who is following this thread and giving input.

then u have just proved it

it is the socket/wire in the new room..............if the system is fine on the old room the only varible is the socket the wire and the breaker


electric should all travel in the same way the one reason it would differ is if something is different the socket and the wires in that room are the only factors left .......old socket someone lite a smoke off it back in the day damaged the power would come tho odd .....bad wires from the breaker to the socket the engery could not flow feely (little arc jumps from a hole made by a nail )

Update: I just unhooked both controllers and rewired them in the opposite rooms. First, I tried the controller from the problem room, which is now wired in the proper room. The bulb fired right up. That means that the controller was not the issue. I am waiting for this bulb to cool down and I will plug the same ballast, hood, bulb set up in to the controller from the proper room, which is now installed in the problem room.


Let's say the bulb doesn't work when plugged into the controller from the proper room, which is now wired in the problem room. Remember, I already changed the breaker at the box. Where does that leave me? It would seem there must be a problem with the 240 wire leading from the breaker to the box, which I don't understand. The wire reads 120 on both power lines when they reach the controller. All outlets in the controller read 120v when tested. This wire was installed nearly 2 years ago and has worked fine up until the other day.


I'll post an update once I try the bulb in the problem room.

Update: Just plugged in the same ballast, hood, and bulb set up from the last test into the 4 light controller originally from the proper room, now wired into the problem room. Nothing.

OVERVIEW OF THE PROBLEM, THE ACTIONS I HAVE TAKEN TOWARD SOLVING THE PROBLEM AND THE RESULTS OF THOSE ACTIONS.

Problem: Bulbs will not turn on
Action: Changed the breaker at the box
Result: No light
Action: Tested known to work hood and ballast from other room
Result: No light
Action: Tested the volts at the 4 light control box
Result: 120v at each power line and each receptacle
Action: Plugged ballasts into 4 light controller and tested the hood/ballast connection on the ballast
Result: 72v-110v. Ballasts from other room, proper room, where all bulbs are working fine read 18v-32v at same point
Action: Swapped 4 light controllers from problem room and proper room and tested the ballast/hood connections on an isolated ballast.
Result: Ballast had a much higher volt reading while plugged into the 4 light controller from the proper room, now wired into the problem room. Had a low reading while plugged into the 4 light controller from the proper room, which is now wired into the proper room.
Action: Plugged ballast, hood, bulb setup into the room with the 4 light controller from the problem room, now wired in the proper room.
Result: The bulb lit right up. The 4 light controller from the problem room can be ruled out as the problem.
Action: Plugged ballast, hood, bulb setup into the room with the 4 light controller from the proper room, now wired in the problem room.
Result: No light.

I am leaning toward attributing the lights not firing in the problem room due to the high volt levels I am getting through the ballasts. The question is, what is causing these high volt levels?

It sounds like you found the problem.