optimum co2 levels?

applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
im curious what the optimum level of co2 enrichment would be for growing?

im curious as to whatthe optimum levels are for:

42 watt cfl lights(up to 500 watts)

400 watt hps

600 watt hps

1000 watt hps

im using these different lighs because enrichment levels vary depending on how much light because the stomata willonly accept so much co2 depending on th amount of light used.

lets also assume all grow rooms for each light setup have the same volume.
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member


[h=3]CO2 Calculator[/h][HR][/HR]
This form will calculate how much CO2 will be needed to fill a grow room to the required level. It will also determine how long it will take to fill at the given rate.It will not calculate how often you will need to refill the room with CO2. There is no way to calculate how much the plants will use or how much leaks out! Usually you would want to refill just after an exhaust cycle or every 3 hours.
*The air already has about 390 PPM(thanks Rich) so you only need to add 1110 PPM more to get the optimum level of 1500 PPM.
Enter the grow room length in feet Feet
Enter the grow room width in feet Feet
Enter the grow room height in feet Feet
CO2 to add in PPM
(Parts Per Million)		 PPM*
Flow meter setting or
generator size in CFH
(Cubic Feet per Hour)		 CFH
CO2 is an odorless, invisible, and non-flammable gas. It is also safe for humans in the maximum concentrations recommended for plant growth. The average level of CO2 in the atmosphere is about 390 PPM (parts per million). If the level decreases down below 200 PPM in an enclosed growing area, plant growth slows to a halt. Through the years of testing and research, the optimum enrichment level of CO2 for plant growth has been agreed to be about 1500 PPM. With CO2 enrichment, under good conditions, plant growth rates and flowering will increase 20-100%. CO2 can be used from seedling right through harvest.
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
chuck estevez said:


CO2 Calculator

[HR][/HR]

This form will calculate how much CO2 will be needed to fill a grow room to the required level. It will also determine how long it will take to fill at the given rate.It will not calculate how often you will need to refill the room with CO2. There is no way to calculate how much the plants will use or how much leaks out! Usually you would want to refill just after an exhaust cycle or every 3 hours.
*The air already has about 390 PPM(thanks Rich) so you only need to add 1110 PPM more to get the optimum level of 1500 PPM.
Enter the grow room length in feet
 Feet
Enter the grow room width in feet
 Feet
Enter the grow room height in feet
 Feet
CO2 to add in PPM
(Parts Per Million)
 PPM*
Flow meter setting or
generator size in CFH
(Cubic Feet per Hour)
 CFH
CO2 is an odorless, invisible, and non-flammable gas. It is also safe for humans in the maximum concentrations recommended for plant growth. The average level of CO2 in the atmosphere is about 390 PPM (parts per million). If the level decreases down below 200 PPM in an enclosed growing area, plant growth slows to a halt. Through the years of testing and research, the optimum enrichment level of CO2 for plant growth has been agreed to be about 1500 PPM. With CO2 enrichment, under good conditions, plant growth rates and flowering will increase 20-100%. CO2 can be used from seedling right through harvest.
Click to expand...
do you work at the hydro store? 1500 ppm is very debatable . for most c3 plants the saturation point is >1200 ppm. also excess co2 has been shown to reduce yields in c3 plants.

anyone else care to chime in? id love to see a study stating that 1500 ppm is optimal for cannabis

sources:

CO2 crop growth enhancement and toxicity in wheat and rice
Bugbee B, Spanarkel B, Johnson S, Monje O, Koerner G.
Adv Space Res. 1994 Nov;14(11):257-67.

Super-optimal CO2 reduces wheat yield in growth chamber and greenhouse environments
Grotenhuis T, Reuveni J, Bugbee B.
Adv Space Res. 1997;20(10):1901-4.

Very high CO2 reduces photosynthesis, dark respiration and yield in wheat
Reuveni J, Bugbee B.
Ann Bot. 1997 Oct;80(4):539-46.

Super-optimal CO2 reduces seed yield but not vegetative growth in wheat
Grotenhuis TP, Bugbee B.
Crop Sci. 1997 Jul-Aug;37:1215-22.
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
applepoop1984 said:
do you work at the hydro store? 1500 ppm is very debatable . for most c3 plants the saturation point is >1200 ppm. also excess co2 has been shown to reduce yields in c3 plants.

anyone else care to chime in? id love to see a study stating that 1500 ppm is optimal for cannabis

sources:

CO2 crop growth enhancement and toxicity in wheat and rice
Bugbee B, Spanarkel B, Johnson S, Monje O, Koerner G.
Adv Space Res. 1994 Nov;14(11):257-67.

Super-optimal CO2 reduces wheat yield in growth chamber and greenhouse environments
Grotenhuis T, Reuveni J, Bugbee B.
Adv Space Res. 1997;20(10):1901-4.

Very high CO2 reduces photosynthesis, dark respiration and yield in wheat
Reuveni J, Bugbee B.
Ann Bot. 1997 Oct;80(4):539-46.

Super-optimal CO2 reduces seed yield but not vegetative growth in wheat
Grotenhuis TP, Bugbee B.
Crop Sci. 1997 Jul-Aug;37:1215-22.
Click to expand...
no, just did a simple google search and found info related to cannabis,not wheat.
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
if anyone has any studies on the co2 saturation point of cannabis being 1500 ppm id love to see it. in the mean time I will not be accepting "it just is", "the group consensus is" "I did vague google search and im a asshat" etc... type arguments as proof that 1500 is optimal.

not only does photo-inhibition play a role, but excess co2 can cause ethylene to build up, reducing yields.

sources:

"Ethylene synthesis and sensitivity in crop plants"
 Stephen P. Klassen and Bruce Bugbee
HortScience Vol. 39(7) pp. 1546-1552 (2004)

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=3153
 
kinddiesel

kinddiesel

Well-Known Member
I hit co2 in veg and flower. levels between 1900 and 2200 average. but I have a 10 burner natural gas co2 generator so it cost me 30 bucks a month . they do benefit from the higher co2 bigger yields. veg a lot faster as well. you will only notice co2 enrichment at temps above 80f and strong lights. like a hps. I also run the co2 24/7 yeah I use It to keep the room warm at there night. not rec to run co2 at night because there photo plants but I have been doing it for ever no negative effects I actually think the yield is bigger doing so and it don't have to take for ever to fill the room again. in early flower im known to hit the co2 up in the 2500 range for the first 2 weeks. and from a 1 foot veg lol they will be 4 feet tall. 3 foot around . now if your using a bottle ad your not sealed up really good I would suggest only hitting them at 800 and up you still will benefit from co2 with out emptying that bottle fast, you will see a major difference even at 800 compared to what you have natural about 350 ish .
 
kinddiesel

kinddiesel

Well-Known Member
for got to mention. the best temp for co2 is 80f to 95f. any lower. you will not notice a difference. last week or flower co2 off and ac chilling around 55f sold buds bring the colors out.
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
kinddiesel said:
I hit co2 in veg and flower. levels between 1900 and 2200 average. but I have a 10 burner natural gas co2 generator so it cost me 30 bucks a month . they do benefit from the higher co2 bigger yields. veg a lot faster as well. you will only notice co2 enrichment at temps above 80f and strong lights. like a hps. I also run the co2 24/7 yeah I use It to keep the room warm at there night. not rec to run co2 at night because there photo plants but I have been doing it for ever no negative effects I actually think the yield is bigger doing so and it don't have to take for ever to fill the room again. in early flower im known to hit the co2 up in the 2500 range for the first 2 weeks. and from a 1 foot veg lol they will be 4 feet tall. 3 foot around . now if your using a bottle ad your not sealed up really good I would suggest only hitting them at 800 and up you still will benefit from co2 with out emptying that bottle fast, you will see a major difference even at 800 compared to what you have natural about 350 ish .
Click to expand...
if you know of any studies that list the optimal co2 level at what light condition temperature etc that would be great. did you read the abstract of the study I posted? I recommend you read that and the full text on pubmed and if what youre doing works then great but my goal is notto find just what works but what is best.
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
kinddiesel said:
for got to mention. the best temp for co2 is 80f to 95f. any lower. you will not notice a difference. last week or flower co2 off and ac chilling around 55f sold buds bring the colors out.
Click to expand...
ahhh the anthocyanins being brought out from the cold, very nice. my blueberry does that when i grow
 
kinddiesel

kinddiesel

Well-Known Member
what I did I used to do 75 ish co2 1500 ppm. then went to a friends house seen his grow. cranked my co2 and temps up I added about 30 % more yield ! his way co2 high as possible . those books are old my friends about plants they are being re written today by us . the young and new will maximize yield super cropping lolly popin topping so on and so on , old school books do not know the new techniques , new and improved techniques have to stay ahead of the pack . just like a dentist 20 years ago spit jars and big ass needles and today that annoying sucker and tiny cant feel needles . I have read all the info out there on the net I will read as mush as possible . these people don't know because they did not try pushing the co2 harder and higher temps. and looking at the difference in dry weight and fuller wallet.
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
kinddiesel said:
what I did I used to do 75 ish co2 1500 ppm. then went to a friends house seen his grow. cranked my co2 and temps up I added about 30 % more yield ! his way co2 high as possible . those books are old my friends about plants they are being re written today by us . the young and new will maximize yield super cropping lolly popin topping so on and so on , old school books do not know the new techniques , new and improved techniques have to stay ahead of the pack . just like a dentist 20 years ago spit jars and big ass needles and today that annoying sucker and tiny cant feel needles . I have read all the info out there on the net I will read as mush as possible . these people don't know because they did not try pushing the co2 harder and higher temps. and looking at the difference in dry weight and fuller wallet.
Click to expand...
you know it and i know it, but it just won't be good enough for mr.poop, He wants an actual study that says that 1340 ppm at 82 degrees is optimal saturation. Unfortunately, that study hasn't been done(yet?)
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
im sorry estimation is not good enough. im not saying limit your co2 to 750 ppm im saying these results were achieved at this concentration with this much light. if you read the whole study you'd note that at the current temp and co2 concentration 11000 lumens/sq ft yielded the best results. that's an awful lot of light like 1000 watts 2 ft from the plant canopy. afte 11000 lumens/sq ft the rate of photosynthesis dropped off meaning to support more co2 youre going toned more light. but that's merely hypothesis.
 
H

harvey m

New Member
I would just say you have to experiment. That's what I always say about questions of this nature.

I have no idea about what kinddiesel is doing, with such a high ppm of co2. That is so far past anything I've done, it's like it's from another planet, with another type of plant.

I achieved my best yield with one strain at only 850ppm. (set point. I never graphed out the actual level. Obviously, every time the burner comes on, it over shoots the set point before it turns off. So your average will always be higher than the set point.) Higher than 850 brought out a few deficiencies that I could never eliminate, and made the burner run exponentially more, with no increase in yield.

Next strain, noticeable difference between 850 and 1300 or so. So now it's at 1300. Over 1300 doesn't seem to do anything else for growth. (again, that's the set point. I don't know what the average actually is, i'd have to graph that out.) I push my plants about as hard as I can while keeping them as healthy as I can, there is always a compromise. DWC, hiblow septic aeration diaphragm pump, 60 gal tubs, aeration tubing, reflector walls, fans from above, natural gas liquid cooled co2 burner.

I also have Not found that the temp needs to be in the 80s or above to get the explosive growth. I try not to let the temp get too much into the 80s, because I have observed a noticeable reduction in bud density and quality. According to my research, I am not alone with those observations, but I don't take it as far as some people. One guy commented that he doubled his ac cost to keep his room at 70 F, spending as much on AC as on running his lights, just for that reason. I am more about quality than quantity, but energy efficiency is of paramount importance to me, hence the liquid cooled burner, etc, so to me, that's too much.
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
harvey m said:
I would just say you have to experiment. That's what I always say about questions of this nature.

I have no idea about what kinddiesel is doing, with such a high ppm of co2. That is so far past anything I've done, it's like it's from another planet, with another type of plant.

I achieved my best yield with one strain at only 850ppm. (set point. I never graphed out the actual level. Obviously, every time the burner comes on, it over shoots the set point before it turns off. So your average will always be higher than the set point.) Higher than 850 brought out a few deficiencies that I could never eliminate, and made the burner run exponentially more, with no increase in yield.

Next strain, noticeable difference between 850 and 1300 or so. So now it's at 1300. Over 1300 doesn't seem to do anything else for growth. (again, that's the set point. I don't know what the average actually is, i'd have to graph that out.) I push my plants about as hard as I can while keeping them as healthy as I can, there is always a compromise. DWC, hiblow septic aeration diaphragm pump, 60 gal tubs, aeration tubing, reflector walls, fans from above, natural gas liquid cooled co2 burner.

I also have Not found that the temp needs to be in the 80s or above to get the explosive growth. I try not to let the temp get too much into the 80s, because I have observed a noticeable reduction in bud density and quality. According to my research, I am not alone with those observations, but I don't take it as far as some people. One guy commented that he doubled his ac cost to keep his room at 70 F, spending as much on AC as on running his lights, just for that reason. I am more about quality than quantity, but energy efficiency is of paramount importance to me, hence the liquid cooled burner, etc, so to me, that's too much.
Click to expand...
the problem with doing your own studies is the lack of a controlled environment. in a lab its completely different. they used an led light that is as more powerful than the sun (2000 umol ppfd) and found that the optimal light under 750 ppm co2 is 1500 umol . the led light they used sandwiches the leaf between an led light and a device that measures the rate of photosynthesis and water uptake and other things. this is the best way to measure the best ppm ofco2 for growing. that being said its hard to argue with someone getting almost 1 g/watt but there are too many other factors
 
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