Organic chelates.

quietly learning my ass off over here so thankyou, please continue!

I think it`s insulting to try and sell more bottled crap than to install a proper environment for educational growth. I have completed college level and advanced soil science courses in horticulture and agriculture. I know a thing or two about chelating environments. Am I still embarrassing someone because of a ? funny... You try to stop me from speaking without offering why other than the fact that someone says it`s embarrassing to use a ? real funny..


Why don't you use Humates and Citrates as a chelating agent? Why use sugar and MORE organic compounds to break down and turn sour?

DO you have any idea how much dolomite lime I have to put in the soil to keep it in check right now? ya.. sugar.. HA.. good advice.. blah... Sorry, I wanted to talk about amino acids and the amino complex.. I wanted to talk about why the Amino Acids can create another chelation effect AND supply the bacteria with complex proteins/gluconates. The ferrous gluconate structure is similar to that of amino acid chelates... I was ignored, instead someone said I don't know what I am talking about.. There ya go, good way to start a conversation...


DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE AMINO ACIDS????

whodatnation said:

Ok now your just a troll, why do you hate everything so much? Sad sad people.

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stop insulting me.. You are not teaching people why they can use citrates to use as a chelator as well as a pH adjusting agent. You are not talking about humus.. You are talking about why Sugar is better than humus and citric acids... You refused to talk to me about the Amino Complex and why YOU think it`s useful. I believe it is useful, I wanted YOUR advice.. What an ass I am, sorry.

Sugar as a chelator, no thanks.. Use Humic acids and/or citrates + L/D-Amino complex*, they do the same job as sugars but they use less molecular decomposition rates of organic compounds - this means less BAD bacteria AND less of the dramatic pH shifts which can occur late in bloom, because of the bad bacteria.

*The L-(amino) stands for levorotatory. In nature, the vast majority of amino acids take the L configuration as opposed to the D-(Amino) configuration; D stands for dextrarotatory. The L and D configurations are enantiomers of each other; in other words, they have the same chemical structure and order to their molecules, but they are mirror images of each other. Molecules with enantiomers polarize light that is shown through it, and assigned an L or D based on which way the light bends when shown through a solution. Most amino acids naturally only occur in the L conformation, which make them enantiomerically pure.


It is normal for the medium to compact and begin to organically decompose after a few months of being wet. This is why many growers cannot reuse their soil very well. This same reason is why the soil becomes more stagnate after being in a potting container for months on end.

I grow 8ftx8ft trees which yield 5+lbs and take 6 months to grow, i do this in 30 gallon pots. NOT A SINGLE LEAF TURNS YELLOW AND FALLS OFF, until the last 2 weeks.. embarrassing? ..i think not. ..I smash the "1 ounce per soil gallon" rule like a ninja.. My roots are PURE white and encompass the entire medium.. Why should I be embarrassed? I know sugar is shit and better on pancakes, not in my soil.



I think some of you are confused as to what an AACT system can do.. It will NOT break down all of the organic compounds, it WILL suspend the anaerobic microbes from attacking the organic compounds.

Note: If you pour the anaerobic bacteria into the roots, they will slightly eat the roots until a proper chelation system is met. This can almost NEVER happen with sugar and other worthless organics in the teas.

Through breaking down the organic compounds in an aerobic tea, you are breaking the cellular walls and releasing the Nitric, and Phosphoric acids. You are also able to release Potassium from it`s mostly carbon/sulfate/citrate bonds as well.. This is what the plant wants, not a banana shoved into the roots.. You also have to remember, example: 12-0-0 means there is 12% nitrogen. What do you think the other 88% is? well, most of it is organic compounds which NEED to be decomposed BEFORE they are put in soil. Aerobatic teas, like that of AACT, do not fully decompose all of the organics.. You will have more in the tea which will turn sour as it decomposes. The plants do not need the tea to turn sour in the roots as soon as you stop bubbling the shit... ..literally. Some organics can take weeks or months to fully decompose, if they are in your soil, BAM.. ACID.. I`m not being a dick, it`s just science.

MudDuck said:

As I understand, the mykos break down insoluble nutes into lesser chains of molecules so they can be absorbed at the root. They don't actually serve it to the root though. Those gnarly boosters have steroid effects on yield, which is my goal, through organic means. So basically (Insoluble Nutes) + (Mykos) = (Soluble Nutes) + (Humic/Fulvic) + (Happy Mykos) the interaction is over at this point but you could: (Insoluble Nutes) + (Mykos) = (Soluble Nutes) + (Humic/Fulvic) + (Happy Mykos) --> + (Amino Acids) = (Soluble CHELATED nutes) + (humic/fulvic) + (still happy mykos still doing their job on insoluble nutes)

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Fungi, in general, have various enzymes that they may excrete into their environment which help to break down materials outside of the cell. The organic acids they produce, as well as enzymes such as phosphatases, in particular, break away phosphate groups from organic complexes for mineralization. In soil phosphorous tends to be heavily bound to more complex compounds, much of the P in soil is not actually plant available. Mycorrhizal fungi actually do actively seek out water and mineral nutrients (P especially) to bring back to the plant in exchange for carbon\carbohydrates. There are several different kinds of mycorrhizal fungi. Endomycorrhizae and arbuscular mycorrhizae grow between the root cells, with their hyphae actually penetrating the cell wall and cellular membrane. Ectomycorrhizal fungi also grow in between root cells; this kind does not penetrate the root cells themselves, but rather forms an envelope or sheath of hyphae around the root tip, and around the cells within the root cortex.
So, mycorrhizal fungi really are actively serving nutrients to the plant. In fact, they do best in low-P environments as they really like to go out and find phosphorous for the plant.



.... And despite the fact that good, beneficial aerobic bacteria use simple sugars just as well. Cyclic hydroxamic acids are the primary chelating agent in blackstrap molasses. Which, btw is applied to soil for reason other than mineral chelation. But who was really talking about sugar? Besides you, Mr. KnowItAllTroll?

Thank you.


Sorry psi I cant respond to any of your posts now as Im not reading them... Good work.



Thank you again nullis. I appreciate the info

Mold is standard for aerobic and anaerobic decomposition of many organic compounds. Mold will help your roots if you pour sugar in it by creating a better chelation effect. The thread topic was starches, sugars, and amino acids, and regards toward the organic chelation effect. It`s a game of bacteria VS mold. mold is usually better. I don't know it all but I know some. if you have mold which is anaerobic, it can stop the anaerobic bacteria in the roots by overwhelming it with a by-produce of other elements - as Dev/Null has said.

just test this, cut an orange, put it in a plastic bag, watch the mold, that is a penicillin derivative - it has some bacteria, mostly mold. Aerobic and anaerobic molds can prevent the souring process of organic decomposition. It`s best to learn what you support and why is works..

whodatnation said:

Thank you.


Sorry psi I cant respond to any of your posts now as Im not reading them... Good work.



Thank you again nullis. I appreciate the info

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cool.. I wanted to say something about science. Other people can read.

MudDuck said:

I theorize that I can make a Fermented Plant Extract of quinoa which has an incredible amino acid profile by weight. As well, I'll use some kale stalks that would otherwise hit the compost pile in order to provide minerals. I will make a LAB serum to ferment the quinoa and kale with.
Once the quinoa/kale FPE is complete, I'll dilute it into an AACT where I would normally add mycorrhizae which will bring the brew to life with a bit of anaerobics while the lactic and amino acids begin bonding with the NPKs from the guanos/kelps.
The FPE's acidity will also keep the overall nute tea pH closer to high 5's.

Hopefully by adding this to an already living soil will crank the plants to overdrive for a few days of crucial bud development.
I'll update after I water in my first batch and observe results.

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just helping you understand your theory... I would like to know your results.. I theorize your soil goes acidic and toxic in 10-30 days.

Mycorrhizal fungi aren't really considered to be molds. Of course, there are fungi in healthy soil which are strictly saprophytic. However, all fungi are aerobic I am fairly confident (except yeasts which are facultative anaerobes).

Fuck all that bottled shit, gel caps are the way to go. Now please stop trolling.

Nullis said:

However, all fungi are aerobic I am fairly confident.. Now please stop trolling.

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you are wrong, stop spreading misinformation and please stop calling me a troll for saying the fact.


rad... You should see this one now.. I helped a buddy with all of his ground work. He has 6-8lbs on this plant now.. The buds are 5"-8"inches wide, and 2ft long.. insane.. it`s 8ft tall now. All supported on a 6ft fence around this plant.. He dropped his nuts when I worked the soil and additives for him.. I increased his yield by 1000%. he was using sugars, fermented starches, and other non-sense. 6-8lbs, 30 gallon bucket, 6 month old plant, same medium. The buds are bigger than my leg and he has maybe 80 of those on this plant - this picture was in late June. ..You can see how the plant makes the 30-gallon potting container look pathetically small. You should see it now, he don`t want pictures of it, though.. sorry. This is all I`m willing to share..


View attachment 2848294

Dude, if you can't do this with blood, bone, guts, and seaweed, what are we talking about?

Really? Besides the ones in the phylum Neocallimastigomycota? Yeasts are either obligate aerobes or facultative anaerobes.

Mycorrhizae and undoubtedly the great majority of saprophytes living in soil absolutely require oxygen, some can maybe get by on lower concentrations than others at times but they still require it for growth. Slime, water molds and algae aren't fungi.

Mold is standard for aerobic and anaerobic decomposition of many organic compounds. Mold will help your roots if you pour sugar in it by creating a better chelation effect. The thread topic was starches, sugars, and amino acids, and regards toward the organic chelation effect. It`s a game of bacteria VS mold. mold is usually better. I don't know it all but I know some. if you have mold which is anaerobic, it can stop the anaerobic bacteria in the roots by overwhelming it with a by-produce of other elements

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I am sorry, I just have no idea what you're saying. And I am pretty sure "starches, sugars and amino acids" wasn't quite really the 'topic' of this thread to begin with.

Nullis said:

I am sorry, I just have no idea what you're saying. And I am pretty sure "starches, sugars and amino acids" wasn't quite really the 'topic' of this thread to begin with.

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you can Google anaerobic fungi, who needs to be a dick unless they are retarded. Anyway, what WAS his theory? I quoted it at least a few times. Don't worry about it, we all feel passion for what we do and love so well, we grow cannabis, brother.. I like your posts, Null - dont think i`m a troll. I am a person, like you, on the internet. We talk because we are intelligent, we fight because we disagree. Can we find a median?


AMINO ACIDS PLEASE > as a chelation agent. Muddy dewd has some good ideas with the amino acid complex, I almost agree other than the fact that organics DECOMPOSE and create acids.. Now, if we are growing cannabis, should we be worried about the effect of pH exchange in the medium?

You are a smart guy, Nul. I am not attacking anyone, I would like to learn without people calling me a troll. They state THEORY, i state scientific fact. I learned from college and organic chemistry for my 'supposed' basis of fact. If this makes me a troll, burn all the books and say that ANYONE who has an opinion is wrong for placing too many worthless organics in the soil. N-P-K, Macro, Micro, trace, chelation. I am trying to learn instead of being a dick. I know you care and are probably hard headed, like myself. lol man.. it`s hard to hold a 4.0. go back to school and try it.. AND smoke 20 grams a day, like I do. I grow my own, I never buy.

.... And despite the fact that good, beneficial aerobic bacteria use simple sugars just as well

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I disagree... they turn bacteria and shit acid because they are not completely broken down into basic and organic NPK acids.
EDIT: Fungi can create elemental and organic elements as a by-product. Sugar creates co2 and acid, BOTH WORTHLESS, in my soil.. AACT wont stop this unless you use a tsp in 50 gallons of some nice AACT.. Do you people even know what gravity and molecular weight is? ugg... Reliving Organic Chem 101.

My acids turn into Nitric, Phosphoric, and Potassium Citrate acids, what do yours turn into with the starch and sugar?


Are you going to disagree and say citric acid is NOT a chelating agent, similar to sugar, without the aerobatic and anaerobatic bacteria sugar rapidly feeds? ...that is another set-up to prove you know what you are talking about. Muddy posted that citric acid is just as good.. where is it.. let me find it..

ok, tell me potassium citrate is not as good as sugar, and tell me why.

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Can anyone tell any of us why potassium citrate is useful with the amino acid complex? ...fuck.. I should just write a book. Can anyone tell us why the reduced citrate will rip apart from the potassium when the plant absorbs the K? ... We don't know why amino acids can bridge the breakdown of a citrate chelation agent, do we?

Right, exactly, you're supposed to be all smart and college educated and flaunting it or whatever; which is why I asked you to tell me specifically which fungi are the ones that are anaerobic (besides yeasts which are facultatively anaerobic and the aforementioned phylum. And this is also why I would expect you'd be able to explain things to us, in much better terms than:

I disagree... they turn bacteria and shit acid because they are not completely broken down into basic and organic NPK acids.

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Pretty sure you were the first to mention the word sugar. Citric acid sure is a chelating agent, but you really don't seem to understand the Krebs cycle very well yourself.

Aerobic soil bacteria\archaea capable of utilizing simple sugars as energy certainly do produce organic acids.

You get the food for citric acid and Krebs cycles though the other and more important organics, blood, bones, guano, seaweed, ect - protein, fat, carbs.. We still need to bubble the co2 out so it does not do this in our soil, man.. no alcohol in this mix please, sugar is too fast, turns alchy - or acetic with oxy.. remember the 12-0-0, 1-11-0, 1-0-18 rule. NPK ect. Let me find something.. I get 1-0-18, 100% seaweed for 7$ per pound.. amazing!!! here:

https://estore.sparetimesupply.com/products/sparetime-sol-seaweed-powder--1-0-18---br-10--520.html

- wholesale, sorry..

I still have to account for the other organics which go into my soil and decompose.

Fungi is GREAT!
Many fungi are homogeneous in nature and the air, should we talk about what is abundantly available or an additive?


fun..

Sucrose is a carbohydrate. It's a dissacharide, but you knew that. For some reason you really don't get that alcohol and acetic acid IS NOT FORMED in any significant amount by these organisms. Glycolysis of glucose yeilds pyruvate! Pyruvate can easily be used to make Acetyl-CoA....which can enter the Krebs cycle!
Otherwise IDK what to tell you, as a person who brews AACT frequently and uses blackstrap molasses (which does contain some sucrose, glucose, fructose)...there is no alcohol OR acetic acid in MY compost tea.

This is more like it.

[video=youtube;47gJSKGeRuc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47gJSKGeRuc[/video]




edit: Im a bit too drunk to participate atm you know, sunday funday.


Seriously guys dont let him get you worked up, this is supposed to be fun

"Organic NPK acids"... lol.

Nullis said:

Sucrose is a carbohydrate. It's a dissacharide, but you knew that. For some reason you really don't get that alcohol and acetic acid IS NOT FORMED in any significant amount by these organisms. Glycolysis of glucose yeilds pyruvate! Pyruvate can easily be used to make Acetyl-CoA....which can enter the Krebs cycle!
Otherwise IDK what to tell you, as a person who brews AACT frequently and uses blackstrap molasses (which does contain some sucrose, glucose, fructose)...there is no alcohol OR acetic acid in MY compost tea.

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Right. Theoretically, you could inoculate an AACT with the right amount of O2 loving yeast (belgian strong ale yeasts for any brewers reading) to potentially yield a bit of ethyl from the added molasses, but the alcohol made would be so insignificant that the plants wouldn't even get a buzz. Furthermore, without ethyl alcohol, you cannot make acetic acid. The (rather unrelated) concept ushered by some on this thread that an AACT can go to vinegar is just plain false. I've made vinegar from craft beer before (not trying to jerk off here, just an example) and anything registering below 7% alcohol is a lousy precursor to vinegar. There's just no fucking way you can get an AACT anywhere near 7% ABV from a mere few tablespoons of molasses when homebrew batches of beer call for pounds of liquid or dry malt extract (crude sugars) and a few hundred mL of liquid yeast culture @ 5 gallons. So just to clear things up, you're absolutely right, there is no alcohol (or like 0.00001%) or vinegar (potentially 0.000000001% acetic acid since I know it takes 7 gallons of beer ice bocked to 10% to produce 1 gallon of usable vinegar starter which then has to be accelerated with vodka to even resemble vinegar) in your AACT because you aren't adding nearly enough sugar to produce nearly enough alcohol to produce any vinegar...

I'm being redundant simply to close this chapter and move on. I assume you know what you're doing. Next time using blackstrap, consider an amino/citric acid/tartaric acid/well worked humic drench (1mL per gallon of anything about 25% amino) on the next watering to pull the iron away from the other compounds in the residual molasses now in the soil and allow for better nute penetration of said iron and other traces to your root base.

And last I checked soil microbes NEED sugar to prosper.... And no one here has yet suggested pouring sugar on roots, well except for one person


I aint gonna "sugar coat it", will let you know how this amifort stuff works Im excited though.

pSi - I'd love to hear your scientific explanation of how adding sugars or starches to healthy aerobic soil makes it more acidic.

You called out a little mixup on my part regarding the names of microbes involved in acetic acid formation, but my point still stands... Adding sugar to a healthy aerobic soil will not cause "souring" or vinegar formation. Acetic acid is either formed aerobicly by acetic acid bacteria (using alcohols as a good source) or anaerobically by acetobacteria. So either your soil has to go anaerobic in order to produce the precursor alcohols, or it had to go anaerobic and foster acetobacteria. Either way, I am not aware of any aerobic pathway from sugar to acetic acid.

Not implying that it's necessarily a good idea to dose your soil with sugar, just trying to clear this up... If your soil is healthy, feeding sugars to soil bacteria won't "sour" your soil...

Alright... The dust has settled. I think there's still some potential gain to be had discussing this topic if we can all keep it fact based. Opinions, theories, etc are all helpful too, but only when they are presented as such...


Let's take a step back to the original post that started this discussion... The OP was looking for an organic equivalent to something like an Open Sesame, Cha Ching, or other "bloom booster" supplying a mega dose of P and K. Then, amino acid chelation came up, and I think people might have gotten a little mixed up.


Chelation really only applies to metal cations. In agriculture, chelation mostly applies to cationic metal micronutrients (zinc, iron, copper, etc).


Chelation does not play a role in phosphorus availability, as phosphorus is not a metal cation. Take a look at the ingredients of some other "bloom boosters" (Kool Bloom and Shooting Powder are two examples), and you'll see that they don't include any chelation ingredients (like EDTA). Why? Because they don't include any micronutrients. They supply mega doses of P and K (without chelation) causing a short-term low-level stress which apparenty has some effect on yield. Fox Farm includes a few micronutrients in their "boosters", so they also include EDTA to help prevent them from "falling out of solution" (forming precipitates) when they are added to a dead hydroponic media or soil lacking life (and all the humis, organic acids, etc that come along with that life).


Back to the big picture, chelation is a way to make micronutrients which are already in solution in their mineralized form more stable, or less likely to combine with other chemicals and form a precipitate. Chelation DOES NOT speed the decomposition of organic matter or increase the speed at which nutrients "become plant available" from your organic inputs (whether in the form of guano in your tea or ammendments in your soil). Chelation actually plays no role (that I am aware of) in the uptake of potassium, either.


Are you thinking of enzymes? These substances actually WILL help raise levels of plant-available nutrients. Phosphatase is a particularly helpful enzyme; it's strips plant-available phosphorus from rock. A concoction of enzymes and high-phosphorus organic matter could potentially give your plant a main-line shot of phosphorus, if that's your goal.


What was your goal with the amino acid solution in regards to supplying a mega dose of P and K to your plants?

What could be used instead of Amifort, for those of us unable to purchase Amifort due to the state restrictions mentioned previously in the thread?

SpicySativa said:

Alright... The dust has settled. I think there's still some potential gain to be had discussing this topic if we can all keep it fact based. Opinions, theories, etc are all helpful too, but only when they are presented as such...

Let's take a step back to the original post that started this discussion... The OP was looking for an organic equivalent to something like an Open Sesame, Cha Ching, or other "bloom booster" supplying a mega dose of P and K. Then, amino acid chelation came up, and I think people might have gotten a little mixed up.

Chelation really only applies to metal cations. In agriculture, chelation mostly applies to cationic metal micronutrients (zinc, iron, copper, etc).

Chelation does not play a role in phosphorus availability, as phosphorus is not a metal cation. Take a look at the ingredients of some other "bloom boosters" (Kool Bloom and Shooting Powder are two examples), and you'll see that they don't include any chelation ingredients (like EDTA). Why? Because they don't include any micronutrients. They supply mega doses of P and K (without chelation) causing a short-term low-level stress which apparenty has some effect on yield. Fox Farm includes a few micronutrients in their "boosters", so they also include EDTA to help prevent them from "falling out of solution" (forming precipitates) when they are added to a dead hydroponic media or soil lacking life (and all the humis, organic acids, etc that come along with that life).

Back to the big picture, chelation is a way to make micronutrients which are already in solution in their mineralized form more stable, or less likely to combine with other chemicals and form a precipitate. Chelation DOES NOT speed the decomposition of organic matter or increase the speed at which nutrients "become plant available" from your organic inputs (whether in the form of guano in your tea or ammendments in your soil). Chelation actually plays no role (that I am aware of) in the uptake of potassium, either.

Are you thinking of enzymes? These substances actually WILL help raise levels of plant-available nutrients. Phosphatase is a particularly helpful enzyme; it's strips plant-available phosphorus from rock. A concoction of enzymes and high-phosphorus organic matter could potentially give your plant a main-line shot of phosphorus, if that's your goal.

What was your goal with the amino acid solution in regards to supplying a mega dose of P and K to your plants?

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Sorry dude, real life called and I have been unable to respond:
You're right. If the thread hadn't been derailed we would've arrived here sooner. Alas you beat me to it!

http://bashanis.org/paolo/paoloenzymes.pdf
Check out page 236 for the conclusion- last paragraph. Sorry folks, won't let me copy+paste it.

It explains that the most likely source for phosphatases are microorganisms in the soil. These fungi/bacteria are mostly responsible (I say mostly because according to this article, some plants have been proven to secrete said enzymes) for the creation of these enzymes. The article, starting at 233, discusses humic chelation with said enzymes. It says that enzymes bonded with humic molecules are able to withstand denaturation from pH, temps, or proteolysis (the breakdown of proteins into amino acids) better than a free enzyme or an enzyme complex bonded with Ca.
Promising.
Even a cooler coincidence for this thread is that when an acid phosphatase acts specifically on Tyrosine, one of the essential aminos, it cleaves the amino into immediately available phosphorous in the rhizosphere!
A toast to you, Spicy!