Organic Growing: An Introductory Guide

yeatster

Well-Known Member
@Rasta Roy thanks for the great thread. I'll be coming back to this soon.
Kinda bummed your not selling a soil mix yet because that's why I'm here.

Is there a bagged soil you could recommend to start with, until I take the plunge and start cooking my own? I've looked into this til my eyes hurt. I was ready to order some, Kis Water Only Organic Soil, but shipping is $54! I've seen numerous problems with Fox Farm so, Im all set with that.
Please help me get away from Advanced Nutrients!

I hope your new business venture booms. If your soil was on the market, I would be here, only to thank you.
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
@Rasta Roy thanks for the great thread. I'll be coming back to this soon.
Kinda bummed your not selling a soil mix yet because that's why I'm here.

Is there a bagged soil you could recommend to start with, until I take the plunge and start cooking my own? I've looked into this til my eyes hurt. I was ready to order some, Kis Water Only Organic Soil, but shipping is $54! I've seen numerous problems with Fox Farm so, Im all set with that.
Please help me get away from Advanced Nutrients!

I hope your new business venture booms. If your soil was on the market, I would be here, only to thank you.
If you're in the mid Michigan area I could sell you some soil but unfortunately we aren't shipping yet! Ill message you some soil concoctions later when I'm at home for the evening that will save you cash on the bottled nutes and bagged soils.
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
Can you use canola wheat or barley as a cover crop?
I use malted barley for enzymes. Clover would be my recommendation for a cover crop, it grows well underneath established crops; but my cover crop experience is limited! My grow style leans toward using layers of compost and mulch instead of cover crops. Cover crops are great I'm just up to my ass in compost and mulch where cover crops would be me outsourcing materials.
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
What mulch do you prefer if you don't mind me asking?
The worms in my indoor beds love straw! The underside of the straw mulch rots from being damp and the worms love to congregate and make sweet worm love in these areas.

However I recommend straw with a pretty hard ******

**** Unless you know the farm where your straw comes from it can be hard to know for sure that the straw doesn't contain chemical residues that can be death to your garden.

Shredded red pine mulch is my new favorite. It breaks down faster than lolly pine and as it breaks down it adds organic matter into the soil, increases the CEC, and water and nutrient retention.

Something to consider! Pine straw mulch (pine needles) will make soil more acidic as it breaks down...So say your no til medium is made up of mostly compost and coco coir...No peat moss. So it's naturally not acidic. But some of the amendments that are used to provide calcium can also raise pH (good for peat moss, not for compost heavy mixes), the pine needles will help keep you in the sweet spot.

Likewise, hardwood mulches make soil more alkaline as they break down...So if you got a peat base for your soil then it should also help the balance or at least make a buffer to stop your pH from going into a free fall as the peat breaks down.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I use malted barley for enzymes. Clover would be my recommendation for a cover crop, it grows well underneath established crops; but my cover crop experience is limited! My grow style leans toward using layers of compost and mulch instead of cover crops. Cover crops are great I'm just up to my ass in compost and mulch where cover crops would be me outsourcing materials.
I agree, cover crops are BADASS for a virgin cycling soil, but after that all it does is use nutrients, not to mention if you are using nitrogen fixing legumes, you then need to till them up ad allow them to degrade in order for the nitrogen to be used.
I also feel it's important to note that legumes will use MORE macros then they put back.
but on a virgin soil that's cycling?
hell yea, also you'll visibly see the legumes BUST when the nutrients are finally cycled.
which obviously would indicate that the soil/compost/whatnot is ready to be used.
Oh, actually cover crops are also badass for outdoor grows, when you harvest, plant the cover crop, it'll keep the soil happy and healthy while keeping the nutrient leeching to a minimum during the rainy season.
a cover crop growing from nov to march is about perfect
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
They say too much citrus can make the bin uninhabitable for the worms if it gets too acidic but it seems they definitely can handle more than I would have thought it sounds like from your results! Citrus pulp from my juicer ends up in my worm bin, but the peels go to my composters outside.

I'm definitely trying to do what I can to ensure quality of bagged product. The bags we are using are breathable to make sure nothing goes anaerobic. My only concern is it losing moisture on store shelves and losing microbe life. We keep everything moist and healthy while it's in our possession so if you can get it fresh from us in person it's definitely gonna be the best quality. The product will only be bagged right before it's shipped out to retailers so hopefully it retains it's quality for as long as possible on a store shelf (and hopefully doesn't sit on shelves for long!).
ahh, well if that was a possibility I woulda done it, I add a LOT of citrus peels to my compost
only I do it a lil weird..
when I trim (nonstop it seems) I keep the fanleaves in a brown paper bag, and I eat oranges like a mofo (sorta helps with the sugar munchie-craving) anyways, I toss the rinds in with my fanleaves and shake em up, the dry fanleaves act sorta like a desicant and the orange peel is a white-green fuzzy mold in like 2 days
in each half full bag of fanleaves I probably have three oranges in it
the last pile I did, I had probably 20 bags of fanleaves with the orange peels.
One thing I've noticed about worms is that they aren't stupid, I used to be anal about what goes in the pile, not much anymore (the exception being animal stuff)
i'm also abandoning the wormbin, yup you heard it right, my compost pile has a metric fuck-ton of reds in it, probably 100x the amount I have in the wormbin, so whats the point?
it's gonna be the same, and my compost pile is big enough that I can put WA more worm food in it without disrupting it's general wellbeing
I don't even thaw the veggies for em anymore, I toss it in a hole and bury it, and the worms are smart enough to figure it out.
Like I said before, the last 5 yrs or so of growing I've been trying to limit the superfluous activities.
finding out that the end product doesn't change much provided you have the almighty fresh humus.
Fresh humus with tons of microbes.
That's where the magic happens

BUT... you are waaay better to er on the side of caution if you have an "early" wormbin, meaning one that's not very established
OR if you are in a small bin
I wouldn't add citrus to a wormbin that didn't already have a good amount of leaves and soil in it already.
or if you have them fresh.
you want em a lil aged, moldy and degraded, just like all the wormbin foods
the more moldy/degraded the better
 
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Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
ahh, well if that was a possibility I woulda done it, I add a LOT of citrus peels to my compost
only I do it a lil weird..
when I trim (nonstop it seems) I keep the fanleaves in a brown paper bag, and I eat oranges like a mofo (sorta helps with the sugar munchie-craving) anyways, I toss the rinds in with my fanleaves and shake em up, the dry fanleaves act sorta like a desicant and the orange peel is a white-green fuzzy mold in like 2 days
in each half full bag of fanleaves I probably have three oranges in it
the last pile I did, I had probably 20 bags of fanleaves with the orange peels.
One thing I've noticed about worms is that they aren't stupid, I used to be anal about what goes in the pile, not much anymore (the exception being animal stuff)
i'm also abandoning the wormbin, yup you heard it right, my compost pile has a metric fuck-ton of reds in it, probably 100x the amount I have in the wormbin, so whats the point?
it's gonna be the same, and my compost pile is big enough that I can put WA more worm food in it without disrupting it's general wellbeing
I don't even thaw the veggies for em anymore, I toss it in a hole and bury it, and the worms are smart enough to figure it out.
Like I said before, the last 5 yrs or so of growing I've been trying to limit the superfluous activities.
finding out that the end product doesn't change much provided you have the almighty fresh humus.
Fresh humus with tons of microbes.
That's where the magic happens

BUT... you are waaay better to er on the side of caution if you have an "early" wormbin, meaning one that's not very established
OR if you are in a small bin
I wouldn't add citrus to a wormbin that didn't already have a good amount of leaves and soil in it already.
or if you have them fresh.
you want em a lil aged, moldy and degraded, just like all the wormbin foods
the more moldy/degraded the better
Brilliant stuff dude. Are you going to bother with turning the pile still or just let the worms do their magic?
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
Brilliant stuff dude. Are you going to bother with turning the pile still or just let the worms do their magic?
when I add leaves and grass it'll be turned, but have a different spot for my new piles, then I have massive smartpot I use to keep my finished compost from yrs past..
I've found that a good pile lasts a LONG time..
also I have huge problems with the critters in my forest eating the reds out of the compost, so I have layers or damp cardboard on the top to protect the worms, and to feed them too, the cardboard slowly disappears.
But right now I still have compost from two yrs back, actually the same shit that I made the thread on.
that one and last yrs and at the rate I grow, I have compost till 2020 or so, so to keep all the microbiology happy I just started treating it as a massive wormbin.
but the finished compost I don't turn at all, although I did add a BUNCH of rice hulls cuz the tarp over it evidently isn't water-proof, so it got wet during the storms
but being in a smartpot it wasn't too bad

I just bury a good ten frozen fruits/veggies in there each week, and each week they are gone by the time I check it the next week
a customer gave me a huge bag of super ripe plums and avocados that she had, and I couldn't eat them fast enough (side note, be wary of eating lots of avocados and plums at the same meal...)
Anyways I still have a LOT of those n my freezer for my worms
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I use malted barley for enzymes. Clover would be my recommendation for a cover crop, it grows well underneath established crops; but my cover crop experience is limited! My grow style leans toward using layers of compost and mulch instead of cover crops. Cover crops are great I'm just up to my ass in compost and mulch where cover crops would be me outsourcing materials.
another cool thing about clover as a cover crop is that if you do happen to encounter mites?
well, the clover is the "canary in the gold mine"
they go to clover waaay before the cannabis, it's like top-sirloin to a spider mite
aphids too, not that many get those though
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
Check it out guys, this a room testing out some of my company Great Lakes Compost soil conditioner (compost, worm castings, with a blend of plant and ocean based organic amendments and minerals. Mixed into recycled soil. Along with some plants that are planted into a few different variations on the recipe for the bagged potting soil we will be bringing to stores at the end of the year.

This is when they were first planted into the soil at the beginning of April.

0408171043.jpg

The first cart and second cart are ten gallon pots in the conditioner and recycled soil. The third cart row is three gallon pots with a few different takes on our soil blend. They were just planted from solo cups into the three gallon pots.
The fourth row is a 60 gallon trough with five plants planted into. Next to it is a 28 gallon tub with one plant that had been vegging longer than the others before being transplant.

Behind that is more 10 gallon pots like the first carts.

Here they are today, 3 and a half weeks into flower.

0511171122.jpg 0511171139c.jpg 0511171139_Burst01.jpg 0511171139.jpg

Given a compost tea (just compost and molasses) when they were first transplanted, and when they first switched into flower. Nothing but plain water otherwise.
 

MongolianMonkeyNuts

Well-Known Member
i remember reading this post last year September. Went through all my alerts to find it and finally did. Spent the last 45minutes breaking down the recipe and ingredients and am eager to get started ASAP.

one question though: Can you start Veg plants with this Soil-less mix along with the Veg Tea? I always Veg for like 5 weeks.

I guess its two questions: What amendments do you add after week 3? week 4-7 of flower? just the AACT tea and Kelp tea?

I know this post is a year old and had it last post on April, so hop[efully this will be read by someone.

I really wanna try this alongside the the modified subcool super soil ( https://www.rollitup.org/t/sharing-my-modified-subcool-super-soil-recipe.526665/ )
just because i have a lot of ingredients left over.

want to get started asap.

Thank you in advance
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
i remember reading this post last year September. Went through all my alerts to find it and finally did. Spent the last 45minutes breaking down the recipe and ingredients and am eager to get started ASAP.

one question though: Can you start Veg plants with this Soil-less mix along with the Veg Tea? I always Veg for like 5 weeks.

I guess its two questions: What amendments do you add after week 3? week 4-7 of flower? just the AACT tea and Kelp tea?

I know this post is a year old and had it last post on April, so hop[efully this will be read by someone.

I really wanna try this alongside the the modified subcool super soil ( https://www.rollitup.org/t/sharing-my-modified-subcool-super-soil-recipe.526665/ )
just because i have a lot of ingredients left over.

want to get started asap.

Thank you in advance
I could definitely stand to update this thing!

Doing just the veg tea with a soilless mix you still might be missing a few things, it's more for a base mix in a container needing more fertilizer after a few weeks, or for a soil whose nutrients haven't fully cycled so your plants need a boost of readily available nutrients.

This is my current soil recommendation:

Even parts peat moss/aeration(perlite or rice hulls)/compost

Your part of compost can be homemade, composted manure, or combination of whatever quality composts are available to you.

Add 1/4 cup of lime or oyster shell flour to buffer ph.

Mix it with 10%-15% worm castings for whatever pot size you're in to really up the quality of the mix.

You can plant seedlings, freshly rooted clones, or start seeds in that mix.

Once you throw em into a one gallon and on up tho do the same mix but with these added:

1/2 cup per cubic foot of:
Fish Bone meal or Bone meal
Neem seed meal
Gypsum
Crab shell meal
Kelp meal

1/4 cup per cubic foot of:
Alfalfa meal
Langbeinite

In a container 15 gallons or bigger, that mix should carry you through 4 weeks of veg, and flower. In a smaller container, or if your plants eat hardy, I would top dress when you start flower with some fresh castings or compost, kelp meal, neem seed meal and a bit of Alfalfa meal.

No need for teas or bloom stuff, you can keep it straight water.
 

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
I could definitely stand to update this thing!

Doing just the veg tea with a soilless mix you still might be missing a few things, it's more for a base mix in a container needing more fertilizer after a few weeks, or for a soil whose nutrients haven't fully cycled so your plants need a boost of readily available nutrients.

This is my current soil recommendation:

Even parts peat moss/aeration(perlite or rice hulls)/compost

Your part of compost can be homemade, composted manure, or combination of whatever quality composts are available to you.

Add 1/4 cup of lime or oyster shell flour to buffer ph.

Mix it with 10%-15% worm castings for whatever pot size you're in to really up the quality of the mix.

You can plant seedlings, freshly rooted clones, or start seeds in that mix.

Once you throw em into a one gallon and on up tho do the same mix but with these added:

1/2 cup per cubic foot of:
Fish Bone meal or Bone meal
Neem seed meal
Gypsum
Crab shell meal
Kelp meal

1/4 cup per cubic foot of:
Alfalfa meal
Langbeinite

In a container 15 gallons or bigger, that mix should carry you through 4 weeks of veg, and flower. In a smaller container, or if your plants eat hardy, I would top dress when you start flower with some fresh castings or compost, kelp meal, neem seed meal and a bit of Alfalfa meal.

No need for teas or bloom stuff, you can keep it straight water.
What is the purpose of the gypsum? You should have plenty of calcium & sulfur without it.
Also, I've never seen "crab shell meal", just crab meal.
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
What is the purpose of the gypsum? You should have plenty of calcium & sulfur without it.
Also, I've never seen "crab shell meal", just crab meal.
Crab meal being sold for garden purposes is crab shell meal, they use the meat for food industry, and the left over shell by product is sold as fertilizer.

So the reason why we add gypsum to a soil that already has other things supplying them is because of two things. 1. What gypsum is (calcium sulfate)
2. And how gypsum releases calcium sulfate

Gypsum releases calcium sulfate through a sort of precipitation type process (sorry dog, you're gonna have to hit up a chemistry book if you want a more scientific description lol).

But basically it releases very small amounts, for a long period, and is not dramatically effected by weathering (watering) and is not prone to leeching (wasted nutrients).

This gives you a small amount of plant uptakeable calcium sulfate every time you water, and here is the beauty of it. The highly water soluble plant uptakeable calcium sulfate likes to split up and go pick up friends. The sulfate will find bound up magnesium particles in the soil and form highly uptakeable magnesium sulfate. The calcium will find bound up phosphates and absorb them to make highly uptakeable calcium phosphate. So now you've increased your uptake of phosphorus and magnesium along with your calcium and sulfur. Every time you water.

Not to mention multiple field tests where crops fertilized with gypsum consistently out performed those that weren't.
 
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