Organic soil help

OK I started another thread in the newbies section that I'm pretty sure I got settled for the most part but maybe someone here can offer more advice. I know there's plenty of recipes online but I can't get anything ordered to me right now and unfortunately my local shop is lacking in organics they said.

I gave them a call saying I basically wanted to go all organic and wanted to see what options they have for me. Best route he came up with for me was to buy some roots organic potting soil and mix in some black gold ewc, 0-7-0 bat guano,0-12-0 seabird guano, 9-3-1 bat guano, and some dolomite, great white mycos, and a Malibu Compost Bus Brew biodynamic compost tea bas

Now he says that I'd still be lacking and since I can't order online right now that he would work with me on The Guano Company super tea and budswel. Just wondering if you all think this would be OK for a newbish grower?

How important is what you say I'm missing? And any other ways I can get it without ordering. I know one person told me I need some organic unsulphured black strap molasses but I could try grocery store near me.
Any other ideas?

JB702 said:

OK I started another thread in the newbies section that I'm pretty sure I got settled for the most part but maybe someone here can offer more advice. I know there's plenty of recipes online but I can't get anything ordered to me right now and unfortunately my local shop is lacking in organics they said.

I gave them a call saying I basically wanted to go all organic and wanted to see what options they have for me. Best route he came up with for me was to buy some roots organic potting soil and mix in some black gold ewc, 0-7-0 bat guano,0-12-0 seabird guano, 9-3-1 bat guano, and some dolomite, great white mycos, and a Malibu Compost Bus Brew biodynamic compost tea bas

Now he says that I'd still be lacking and since I can't order online right now that he would work with me on The Guano Company super tea and budswel. Just wondering if you all think this would be OK for a newbish grower?

How important is what you say I'm missing? And any other ways I can get it without ordering. I know one person told me I need some organic unsulphured black strap molasses but I could try grocery store near me.
Any other ideas?

Click to expand...

1st off, welcome to the organics threads.

What do you mean by local shop?...............hydro store?
Where are you?..................are there no local garden/horticultural outlets? they'd be a better place to start

I honestly wish I'd never have heard of hydroponics or the stores, I'd have had to learn how to make and grow in good soil from scratch years ago.

With all the guano suggested, your soil mix would probably be hot to start off with and due to the fairly fast rate of breakdown of guano you'd be left with nothing in the soil for later in flowering. Most organic peeps' tend to be moving away from the use of guano's due to ecological/sustainability issue's along with the possibility of certain pathogens

It is now thought that a fairly simple home made soil mix is best KISS

1/3 Peat moss
1/3 Humus (Good compost/EWC)
1/3 Aeration

2-3 Cups Nutrient mix per cubic foot - ('MY' Ideal (but not my invention) 1.5 cups kelp meal, 0.75 cup neem meal, 0.75 cup Crabshell/shrimp meal, IMO, the kelp meal is essential and you should be able to find it somewhere, if you can't find the others, get a dry organic fertilizer for tomatoes or peppers)

4 cups minerals per cubic foot - ( 1 cup garden lime, 1/2 cup gypsum 2.5 cups rock dusts)

Mix it all up, wet it down and let it sit for nutrient cycling for 2-6 weeks depending on what nutrients you've put in

My approach;

Use some of the Roots Organic soil to get yourself started. It's pretty good stuff, and should be enough to get you through your first grow, without much additional guano or anything else.

Also get the Worm Castings. If you can afford lots of castings, mix 1 gallon of EWC with every 4 gallons of Roots Organic Soil. If you have to stay within the budget, you can get a small bag of Earth Worm Castings, a cheap fish tank pump, the molasses you mentioned, and make EWC tea. Either way, this will improve the Roots soil, which is already pretty good. That said, mixing more castings into the soil is better and easier than messing with EWC tea.

With the nutrients build into the Roots soil, and the microbes/fungus from the castings, you should be good without the Great White, or budswell, or guano, or anything else. In 5 gallon pots, you should (my opinion) be able to veg 4-6 weeks and flower for 8 or 9 weeks without any additives.

If you can't resist the urge to play around a little, get some of the 9-3-1 bat guano. You can mix 2 tea spoons of guano and 1 teaspoon of molasses into a bucket of water, and use this 2 or 3 times during flower, if your plants start to fade a little. This is not necessary, but sometimes it's fun to play around. If you do decide to make nutrient teas with guano, don't use very much! Just a teaspoon or 2 into 5 gallons of water. Again, this isn't necessary.

Your first grow should take a few months. While thats happening, you can track down more organic amendments, and start your compost pile. Leave your plants alone, let the soil do its thing, learn about compost piles and worms. Scour your town for ingredients. Then, after you finish that first crop, you'll be able to use the good amendments and your own compost to "recondition" the Roots Organic Soil.

To get started, look for;
-Kelp Meal
-Crab Shell
-Alfalfa Meal or Neem Meal

As you gain more experience, you can add to the Roots Organic Soil you used as a base, with your own soil recipe. For me, it's been a never ending process. I've been adding to and mixing and tweaking my soil over and over for years.

Both options provided above are decent ideas. I personally would offer a more simple method of getting big organic buds. My suggestion is probably slightly cheaper as well. But as stated, these guys offered you good advice. If you can find it at a local hydro store, buy FOX FARMS HAPPY FROG soil and perlite for your veg process (pot size of your choice). 30% perlite will allow for plenty of root growth. When you are ready for flowering, switch to a much larger pot and fill it with the same happy frog but only 10% perlite. The happy frog will give you everything you need as far as food goes. The trick is to not over water. Water until you see small bits of water leave the bottom of the pot but nothing more. The more water that runs out of the pot, the more food (organic fertilizer) you are losing.

Great points, and great, simple approach to pot size, areation, and proper watering.

Thank you guys for the replies. I've been trying to keep it all at the hydro store where I've been going but I will look around some more. I'm having car troubles right now and my schedule makes it hard but I will keep looking around and should be able to source everything by this grows end I hope.

I do have one more question for you guys please . If I was going to use advanced nutrients on one plant would it be OK using your mixes?

OK did some calling around today and I should be able to pick up some alfalfa meal, crab meal, and kelp meal. They also recommended some fish bone meal and oyster she'll flour for a little extra and it was pretty cheap so I asked them to set some aside for me. Any experience with these?

And still wondering if anyone happens to know if I'm going to do a plant with advanced nutrients will it be fine in the same soil or should I just do plain roots organic

All of those amendments including the ones recommend are very good choices for your soil mix.

Alright! You've come a long way in just a few days. From guano and bottles, to straight meals! Alfalfa, Crab Shell, Kelp, Fish bone and Oyster shell are about as good as it gets.

What is your plan moving forward?
-Will you use your meals, some EWC, peat moss and perlite and build your own soil from scratch?
-Use Roots soil as-is now, and re-amend it in the future?
-Or are you trying to add stuff to the Roots to make some kind of loaded-up, super-dirt?

I think I will use the roots organic as is this time unless there is a way I can add to it without having to wait a few more weeks as I need to get something started quickly. When this grow is done I planned to re-amend the same roots organic soil and use on the outdoors garden we will be doing and making my own soil from scratch for the next go around

Haha! My girl thinks I'm sick. I hate spending more than $10 on a shirt but I'm willing to drop money on all this stuff without thinking twice. In her words " you got some shit called advanced nutrients for FREE. I may not know much about weed but i know nutrients are good so ADVANCED nutrients gotta be the shit" lol if only she knew. I ended up getting crab meal, alfalfa meal, kelp meal, fish bone, and oyster shell flour.

Its Canadian sphagnum peat moss (that OK right?) 2.2 cubic ft bag so I would double the recipe? It looks like a standard recipe calls for 2-3 cups nutrient mix, so 4-6 cups with kelp equaling double the rest it looks like? A lot of ppl are also using gypsum I noticed but all they had at the nursery was a fast acting gypsum? Is this OK and how much to mix?

DonBrennon said:

1st off, welcome to the organics threads.

2-3 Cups Nutrient mix per cubic foot - ('MY' Ideal (but not my invention) 1.5 cups kelp meal, 0.75 cup neem meal, 0.75 cup Crabshell/shrimp meal, IMO, the kelp meal is essential and you should be able to find it somewhere, if you can't find the others, get a dry organic fertilizer for tomatoes or peppers)

4 cups minerals per cubic foot - ( 1 cup garden lime, 1/2 cup gypsum 2.5 cups rock dusts)

Mix it all up, wet it down and let it sit for nutrient cycling for 2-6 weeks depending on what nutrients you've put in

Click to expand...

So 4-6 cups nutrient mix for my 2.2 cubic foot bag? Fast acting gypsum ok?

-If you use the entire 2.2 c.f. bag of peat moss, you'll need 2.2 c.f. of compost and 2.2 c.f. of areation. This will give you 6.6 c.f. of "base mix." You will need six times the ingredients in the recipe to fertilize all of it.

-As far as I know, gypsum is all pretty much the same. Maybe some is really fine, like flour, and other stuff is granular or pellitized.

-Worm castings are great, but they are pretty fine. With just peat moss and EWC and aeration, my soil can be kinda compact, and "tight" and uniform. Actual compost will have a denser, thicker structure, with some bits and clumps. In my experience, this helps the soil be " looser" and "lighter." Even the chips of bark and bits of sticks from cheap compost help improve the structure and consistency of the soil, in my opinion.

So, for the one third of your soiI that will be "Compost" I would go like 50/50 EWC and compost.

In the past, I have used "Purple Cow" and "Big Daddy Pete's" brand with good results.

I have also used cheap mushroom compost from the big box stores without any problems.

I would love to try out some "Coast of Maine Lobster Compost."

JB702 said:

So 4-6 cups nutrient mix for my 2.2 cubic foot bag? Fast acting gypsum ok?

Click to expand...

youraveragehorticulturist said:

-If you use the entire 2.2 c.f. bag of peat moss, you'll need 2.2 c.f. of compost and 2.2 c.f. of areation. This will give you 6.6 c.f. of "base mix." You will need six times the ingredients in the recipe to fertilize all of it.

-As far as I know, gypsum is all pretty much the same. Maybe some is really fine, like flour, and other stuff is granular or pellitized.

-Worm castings are great, but they are pretty fine. With just peat moss and EWC and aeration, my soil can be kinda compact, and "tight" and uniform. Actual compost will have a denser, thicker structure, with some bits and clumps. In my experience, this helps the soil be " looser" and "lighter." Even the chips of bark and bits of sticks from cheap compost help improve the structure and consistency of the soil, in my opinion.

So, for the one third of your soiI that will be "Compost" I would go like 50/50 EWC and compost.

In the past, I have used "Purple Cow" and "Big Daddy Pete's" brand with good results.

I have also used cheap mushroom compost from the big box stores without any problems.

I would love to try out some "Coast of Maine Lobster Compost."

Click to expand...

Sound advice and I'm making the assumption he's correct and you are adding 1/3rd humus + 1/3rd aeration, they are absolutely necessary.

Good mix of ingredients you got there, I'm no expert(and I hope any more experienced organic heads Will put me straight if I fuck up here). It does depend on how rich, nutrient wise, your humus source is, if it's really rich home made EWC or compost you could probably go a little lighter on the amounts but for your mix 'I'd' go for around 15-18 cups total nutrients

something like this

8 cups kelp
4 cup crab shell
1 cup alfalfa
2 cup fish bone

If you could get hold of neem meal, I'd drop a cup of the crabshell & fish bone and add 3 cups of neem, it'd give you a few benefits including better pest protection and many micro nutes. Everybody swears by it, get your credit card on amazon if you have to.

6.5 cups oyster shell
3 cups gypsum
15 cups rock dust's'!!!! If you find it local it's dirt cheap, literally lol

If you did add the neem meal this would be a top quality soil, a few tea's along the way and as long as the environment and genetics are good, you'll be growing grade 'A' quality bud

DonBrennon said:

Sound advice and I'm making the assumption he's correct and you are adding 1/3rd humus + 1/3rd aeration, they are absolutely necessary.

Good mix of ingredients you got there, I'm no expert(and I hope any more experienced organic heads Will put me straight if I fuck up here). It does depend on how rich, nutrient wise, your humus source is, if it's really rich home made EWC or compost you could probably go a little lighter on the amounts but for your mix 'I'd' go for around 15-18 cups total nutrients

something like this

8 cups kelp
4 cup crab shell
1 cup alfalfa
2 cup fish bone

If you could get hold of neem meal, I'd drop a cup of the crabshell & fish bone and add 3 cups of neem, it'd give you a few benefits including better pest protection and many micro nutes. Everybody swears by it, get your credit card on amazon if you have to.

6.5 cups oyster shell
3 cups gypsum
15 cups rock dust's'!!!! If you find it local it's dirt cheap, literally lol

If you did add the neem meal this would be a top quality soil, a few tea's along the way and as long as the environment and genetics are good, you'll be growing grade 'A' quality bud

Click to expand...

Going to pick up some compost to mix with ewc. 1 part peat 1 part humus 1 part aeration. Is perlite OK since I already have some? Pretty sure I saw some need at the nursery near me so I'll check. As far as the rock dust
http://www.viragrow.com/organic-fertilizers
They have some kelzyme and zeolite. This look ok?

Did a search on here and it looks like a few people on here are using zeolite so I'll go with that and pick up some gypsum and compost while I'm there until I can get my own compost/worm bins started. Stop at the nursery and grab some neem and all set to go right?

Any advice on prep/mixing? Order of ingredients etc.?

JB702 said:

Did a search on here and it looks like a few people on here are using zeolite so I'll go with that and pick up some gypsum and compost while I'm there until I can get my own compost/worm bins started. Stop at the nursery and grab some neem and all set to go right?

Any advice on prep/mixing? Order of ingredients etc.?

Click to expand...

what ingredients did you decide on?
and how many cubic feet?
6?

JB702 said:

Any advice on prep/mixing? Order of ingredients etc.?

Click to expand...

go to wallys world and pickup a small kiddie pool to mix in...
and pickup a dust mask.....
usually mix the "base" first, then add amendments..

greasemonkeymann said:

what ingredients did you decide on?
and how many cubic feet?
6?

Click to expand...

Ya I figured I'd just mix to whole bag and get it done with. So 6 c.f. I already have alfalfa meal, crab meal, kelp meal, fish bone meal, azomite, oyster shell flour, Black Gold vermiculite, and fast acting gypsum.

I couldn't make it to pick up the compost today so I'll try tomorrow and base will be 1 part peat 1 part humus (ewc/compost mix) and perlite

Also have some bus brew tea bags and molasses