Organic (Super)Soil Runoff PPM

GlueSniffer · Jul 5, 2020

Does Runoff PPM mean anything when growing in supersoil?

I just transplanted today from base mix to 5 gallon fabric pots with supersoil mix. They were about 1 month old and seemed to be growing slow. Base mix was 1 part FFOF, 1 part FFHF, 1 part seed starter mix, 2/3 part perlite, 1/3 part hydroton. Supersoil ammendments were from an older Subcool recipe. Made the supersoil about 8 weeks ago. Plants had been given pH'd water from my fish tank and a few feedings of worm casting tea. When I transplanted today, I watered thoroughly to let the soil settle. I watered with bigbloom at 20ml/gal (thats what I fed my peppers and used the leftover for the transplants). The feeding/watering was around 450ppm and 6.5pH. I gave more water than I wanted to and got significant runoff. Checked the runoff and got 7.1 pH and 6,200 ppm!!! I usually will use tap water with absorbic acid at 25mg / gallon for the chlorine and lemon juice to lower pH.

Please Help. I've never heard anybody talk about runoff with ppm that high. I realize my EC meter is cheap, but it reads my tap water at about 170ppm and RO water at around 5 ppm, so it seems somewhat calibrated. What does runoff ppm mean in supersoil? What should I do?

BTW... These are feminized GirlSC from GC. One of the ladies looks nice, but really short and has huge fan leaves. They seem kinda droopy all the time. I don't think I've been overwatering but it is possible. They said it was short plant that slightly leaned towards the indica side even though being 60% sativa. The one set of leaves is about as big as the whole plant is tall. Had 7+ nodes and was under 6" tall. I topped to the 6th node and it is bushing out, but still seems to be growing slowly. The other plant seems to be shaping up slightly differently but doesn't seem to be doing so well. Also topped this girl to the 6th node. Seems to be some type of nutrient deficiency or toxicity/lockout. Leaves on the bottom are yellowing with brown (maybe purple?) spots. Upper leaves tips are showing some clawing. Plant has smaller leaves and not as much new growth. Both plants have some purple'ing of the stems. After transplanting, I put paper plates under the plants to keep the leaves from hanging into the wet soil. I also trimmed the lowest sets of leaves off each plant. Hoping the plate might also reflect some of the light back to the inner part of the plant.

Just transplanted today, so any issues up to now could not be from the supersoil (but could be from the base mix).
Temps have been 72-82F and RH 50-60%

Better of the two.

Sicker of the two.

Thanks in Advance!
-Sniffer

GreenGuy_1995 · Jul 6, 2020

I use a 'water only' organic soil recipe, but not Subcool's super soil recipe...

A couple times, out of curiosity, I've used my Blue Lab Truncheon to measure the EC of the runoff water (when I get some), and it always tests super high, like unbelievably high.. But the plants always look great, so I pay it no mind.

I'm not pointing the finger here, as I've not tested it myself, but I've read that Subcool's super soil recipe is very unbalanced. If that's true, it could cause problems.

I'm not sure you should be feeding your plants anything when transplanting into a super soil.. Assuming that everything they need should already be in the super soil?

Anyhow, best of luck to you!

GlueSniffer · Jul 6, 2020

Thank you for the reply. I plan on just giving plain water from here on out. The top of the grow bag is just the base mix and the supersoil gets more concentrated as it gets deeper. I thought an initial watering of dilute bigbloom wouldn't hurt since the roots hadn't reached the supersoil yet.

And I know there are some better recipe's than the one I used. And Sub said this recipe hadn't worked that well when he used it with FFOF. Suggested mixing 1 to 1 with seed starter mix I believe. When I looked at the ingredients, I didn't much K (if any) in the amendments.

Any thoughts on issue showing up on the 2nd plant. Yellowing lower leaves with brown (or maybe purple) spots, clawing tips on most of the leaves, purple stems- even on the healthy plant (but not sure if that is genetics or not). This issue was developing in base mix, 1 FFHF : 1 FFOF : 1 Seed Starter : 2/3 Perlite : 1/3 Hydroton.

I was thinking Magnesium or Phosphorus Deficiency, but since I'm growing in soil and using tap water I hoped there would be enough. The clawing also makes me think there might be too much of something else locking things out or something. That particular plant seemed a darker green. But I'm not really sure what could lead to mag or phos lockout. Plus I'm not really sure if my base mix has enough N to cause toxicity.

Well the show goes on. I started low stress training and tied them down today. Lets see how they do. Either they get better or they get worse. LOL

MustangStudFarm · Jul 7, 2020

GlueSniffer said:
Checked the runoff and got 7.1 pH and 6,200 ppm!!!

Yeah, that's high! You are most likely dealing with micronutrient lockout and that starts happening at Ph 6.5 and higher. Basically, anything over 6.5 and you can guarantee that you have micronutrient lockout. I'm thinking specifically manganese(not magnesium). Your SuperSoil is SuperHot, like expected. I don't like to dis on TGA because he got me into organics, but Clackamas Coot's recipe is MUCH better and forgiving. I've never seen P lockout in a high organic matter potting soil. I see micronutrient lockout just about every time that I have soil tested though...

Wattzzup · Jul 7, 2020

MustangStudFarm said:
Yeah, that's high! You are most likely dealing with micronutrient lockout and that starts happening at Ph 6.5 and higher. Basically, anything over 6.5 and you can guarantee that you have micronutrient lockout. I'm thinking specifically manganese(not magnesium). Your SuperSoil is SuperHot, like expected. I don't like to dis on TGA because he got me into organics, but Clackamas Coot's recipe is MUCH better and forgiving. I've never seen P lockout in a high organic matter potting soil. I see micronutrient lockout just about every time that I have soil tested though...

This happened to me using an organic top dressing. I could never get the runoff under 7-7.5. Everyone pretty much said disregard but I had micro deficiencies so this makes sense.

MustangStudFarm · Jul 7, 2020

Wattzzup said:
This happened to me using an organic top dressing. I could never get the runoff under 7-7.5. Everyone pretty much said disregard but I had micro deficiencies so this makes sense.

People who say to disregard Ph in organics are Newbs. I have a soil Ph probe and it's the first thing that I check if I have problems. When getting your soil tested, you are supposed to look at soil Ph first before diagnosing the rest. Like I said though, TGA got me into organic gardening with supersoil, but I switched to Clackamas Coots soon after. Clackamas is widely accepted in this forum as THE go-to recipe. I was drawn to it because I was getting crazy high phosphorus #'s on my test results. I knew that high P was a problem and Clackamas based his soil mix around a low P mix. I haven't looked back since.

MustangStudFarm · Jul 7, 2020

GlueSniffer · Jul 8, 2020

Thanks for the help. Growing looks so easy when watching on the tube. LOL I guess everybody has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth.

I tested soil pH before using. Both the base and the supersoil. Not sure if my method of testing is accurate. I just took a handful soil in a cup, added some RO water, stirred for a minute, then stuck my cheap pH pen in the cup with soil / water solution. Since RO water shouldn't have any buffering ability, I figured this method should give decent results even if I wasn't exact with the amount of soil / water used. Both were pretty low, under 6.0. I actually added some fast acting lime to both mixes until my pH measurements were ~6.4. Been watering at 6.5, so I was surprised when the runoff was 7.1.

Perhaps my initial watering (to runoff) when transplanting into the supersoil ranoff some of that lime?
What do you recommend I pH the water to next time? Should I try 6.0 instead of 6.5?

Here are the ladies 2.5 days after transplanting into the supersoil and some LST.
The last pic is the healthier of the two, first 4 pics show the issue plant.

NewGrower2011 · Jul 11, 2020

@MustangStudFarm how are you liking that kelway meter? Compared to a known accurate pen/probe?

I kept eyeballing those and almost purchased but when Bluelab came out with a soil probe I got one of those instead. Still like the ideal of not having to deal with a true glass probe and calibration, etc. So a "reliable/accurate" version of one of those meters is definitely appealing.

PadawanWarrior · Jul 11, 2020

NewGrower2011 said:
@MustangStudFarm how are you liking that kelway meter? Compared to a known accurate pen/probe?

I kept eyeballing those and almost purchased but when Bluelab came out with a soil probe I got one of those instead. Still like the ideal of not having to deal with a true glass probe and calibration, etc. So a "reliable/accurate" version of one of those meters is definitely appealing.

Good question. I looked at that too, but got the BlueLab instead. I hear ya about the glass.

IIReignManII · Jul 12, 2020

MustangStudFarm said:
People who say to disregard Ph in organics are Newbs. I have a soil Ph probe and it's the first thing that I check if I have problems. When getting your soil tested, you are supposed to look at soil Ph first before diagnosing the rest. Like I said though, TGA got me into organic gardening with supersoil, but I switched to Clackamas Coots soon after. Clackamas is widely accepted in this forum as THE go-to recipe. I was drawn to it because I was getting crazy high phosphorus #'s on my test results. I knew that high P was a problem and Clackamas based his soil mix around a low P mix. I haven't looked back since.

Gotta keep that sulfur handy...mature compost is naturally very alkaline isnt it? I'm noticing with a friends grow that this grow store selling their own brand of live soil uses a very alkaline compost, and like 3 different liming agents, and his soil is over 8 right now. I believe it was Shluby who talked about ditching liming agents all together and having better results than ever. I barely put any in my soil now maybe an 8th of a cup per cuft

GlueSniffer · Jul 12, 2020

Like I mentioned before the problem was developing before I ever transplanted into the supersoil. Good news is that it seems to be under control since the transplant. The plant that wasn't showing any signs at my last update began showing the same symptoms but seemed to quickly correct, as did the plant that already looked deficient.

Showed up a day or two later on the other "healthy" plant

And spread a little higher on plant already showing issues

As for testing my soil pH, I tried a more standardized way to test. Using 10grams of soil and 25ml of RO water, mix for 5 minutes, wait 30 minutes, mix again, and test pH. It measured 7.2.

If the original problem was a nutrient lockout, it would have been an mobile nutrient right? Since it was only showing in the older, lower leaves.
As I understand the mobile nutes are N, P, K, and Mg, which should be available at 7.1 - 7.2pH, right?
If a high pH was causing a micro nutrient lockout, wouldn't it show up in the new growth since the micros are mostly immobile? Or is there a relationship where a micro lockout could also cause macro lockout like Phos?

An update... 35 days from seed, 7 days since transplant. It has been a week since transplanting into 5 gallon pots and one girl got her first drink since the transplant. Again I used tap water, dechlorinated with vitamin C (25mg per gallon), used lemon juice to lower pH to 6.2 this time. I bottomed watered this time. The plant are short, with big fan leaves, plus I've been training them to stay even shorter. 5 weeks old, tops are only 5 inches from soil, but each has at least a dozen tops all at that 5 inch height plus more new growth coming in from the middle. I didn't want the leaves hanging in wet soil, so I decided to water from the bottom. Is bottom watering a bad idea with supersoil???

The other girl wasn't ready for a drink yet. I've been trying these wooden dowels to check soil moisture until i get an idea for the weight of the thirsty pots.
These are the dowels many hours after removing from the soil and you can still see a difference. It was much more pronounced at the time with lots of soil clinging to the dowel on the right.

One of two..
Has a bit of tip burn on very few leaves. Hasn't been watered in a week

Two of two... Just watered today

I am trying to fill up a 2'x2' tent with colas. Do I put up a scrog net or a few layers of nets and veg until I have an even canopy with a top in each square, then flip the lights? I think the net would have 36 squares in the 2x2, which is only 18 tops per plant, but the plants are going to have to stretch to fill the canopy. The plants are about as wide as the pots which is about 12". I'm not really sure how the plant development or canopy management is going, but I'm trying and learning new things. I think things could be much worse for my first grow. Just wondering how long I need to veg. Not sure if I should fill the canopy then flip, or flip before the canopy is full and see if they will stretch to fill after I flip the lights?

MustangStudFarm · Jul 12, 2020

NewGrower2011 said:
@MustangStudFarm how are you liking that kelway meter? Compared to a known accurate pen/probe?

I kept eyeballing those and almost purchased but when Bluelab came out with a soil probe I got one of those instead. Still like the ideal of not having to deal with a true glass probe and calibration, etc. So a "reliable/accurate" version of one of those meters is definitely appealing.

I bet that the digital pen is better. Digital were not out when I bought the Kelway meter, so I didn't have a choice. Soil Ph probes are fairly new...

MustangStudFarm · Jul 12, 2020

IIReignManII said:
Gotta keep that sulfur handy...mature compost is naturally very alkaline isnt it? I'm noticing with a friends grow that this grow store selling their own brand of live soil uses a very alkaline compost, and like 3 different liming agents, and his soil is over 8 right now. I believe it was Shluby who talked about ditching liming agents all together and having better results than ever. I barely put any in my soil now maybe an 8th of a cup per cuft

I know that anything over Ph 6.5 you will start locking out micronutrients. I found that things do just fine at Ph 5.8 but I usually have excess of phosphorus and low in micros like zinc or manganese. I really don't use OSF that often anymore either, unless I'm dealing with a worm bin that really needs it. If you see potworms in your compost, it's time for more rock dust. I'm currently using azomite, greensand, and basalt in my compost/worm bin. I'll even tell you my secret ingredient, I'll mix in manganese sulfate with a bowl of rockdust before I use it. Also, I stopped using Humic acid unless it's going to be in the compost for a while. Humic acid will chelate iron and make Mn less available, it's great to lower the amount of P in manure composts, but you will have to add Mn to offset the iron. It's tricky as hell trying to balance soil, I've been trying to do it since 2016(soil testing). You say that cow manure is alkaline, it may be true because it always has a high K value. If you ever heard the term "base saturation ratio" they are talking about acid/bases and your bases that need to be in the right ratio are Ca(70%), Mg(20%), K(10%), and Na. They are antagonistic against eachother.

MustangStudFarm · Jul 12, 2020

GlueSniffer said:
Like I mentioned before the problem was developing before I ever transplanted into the supersoil. Good news is that it seems to be under control since the transplant. The plant that wasn't showing any signs at my last update began showing the same symptoms but seemed to quickly correct, as did the plant that already looked deficient.

Showed up a day or two later on the other "healthy" plant
View attachment 4621833 View attachment 4621836
And spread a little higher on plant already showing issues
View attachment 4621835

As for testing my soil pH, I tried a more standardized way to test. Using 10grams of soil and 25ml of RO water, mix for 5 minutes, wait 30 minutes, mix again, and test pH. It measured 7.2.

If the original problem was a nutrient lockout, it would have been an mobile nutrient right? Since it was only showing in the older, lower leaves.
As I understand the mobile nutes are N, P, K, and Mg, which should be available at 7.1 - 7.2pH, right?
If a high pH was causing a micro nutrient lockout, wouldn't it show up in the new growth since the micros are mostly immobile? Or is there a relationship where a micro lockout could also cause macro lockout like Phos?

An update... 35 days from seed, 7 days since transplant. It has been a week since transplanting into 5 gallon pots and one girl got her first drink since the transplant. Again I used tap water, dechlorinated with vitamin C (25mg per gallon), used lemon juice to lower pH to 6.2 this time. I bottomed watered this time. The plant are short, with big fan leaves, plus I've been training them to stay even shorter. 5 weeks old, tops are only 5 inches from soil, but each has at least a dozen tops all at that 5 inch height plus more new growth coming in from the middle. I didn't want the leaves hanging in wet soil, so I decided to water from the bottom. Is bottom watering a bad idea with supersoil???

The other girl wasn't ready for a drink yet. I've been trying these wooden dowels to check soil moisture until i get an idea for the weight of the thirsty pots.
These are the dowels many hours after removing from the soil and you can still see a difference. It was much more pronounced at the time with lots of soil clinging to the dowel on the right.
View attachment 4621841

One of two..
Has a bit of tip burn on very few leaves. Hasn't been watered in a week
View attachment 4621857 View attachment 4621866 View attachment 4621865
Two of two... Just watered today
View attachment 4621863 View attachment 4621864

I am trying to fill up a 2'x2' tent with colas. Do I put up a scrog net or a few layers of nets and veg until I have an even canopy with a top in each square, then flip the lights? I think the net would have 36 squares in the 2x2, which is only 18 tops per plant, but the plants are going to have to stretch to fill the canopy. The plants are about as wide as the pots which is about 12". I'm not really sure how the plant development or canopy management is going, but I'm trying and learning new things. I think things could be much worse for my first grow. Just wondering how long I need to veg. Not sure if I should fill the canopy then flip, or flip before the canopy is full and see if they will stretch to fill after I flip the lights?

The first 3 weeks of flower is nothing but stretch, just keep that in mind. Some strains stretch more than others... Looking again, it looks like you have indica dom strains that probably won't stretch much. So, they probably need a little more veg time than a 50/50 hybrid... They are vegging kind of slow, right?

GlueSniffer · Jul 12, 2020

Yes, veg seems slow to me. I guess with organic in soil, you are kinda playing a long term game anyway. Nothing is going to change instantly. I'll just keep being patient and keep paying attention to the plants. If it says up to 550g / sq meter, I think that is like 200g in a 2'x2'. I'm using about 250 watts of LED, so I would be pretty happy with 200g for my first grow. Not really sure how reasonable that might be.

Strain Description says, " nicely balanced hybrid that falls ever so slightly to the indica side... Girl Scout Cookies cannabis seeds are a good choice for gardeners both new and old – the strain is not difficult to cultivate, and offers up an average yield. If you live in a warm and humid climate, you could have good success with an outdoor Girl Scout Cookies crop; otherwise, indoors is ideal and the plants – which lean more toward indica in their short to medium height and bushy appearance – lend themselves well to the “Sea of Green” low-stress training method. You’re looking at a flowering stage of between eight and 10 weeks."

Strain Genetics	OG Kush x Durban Poison
Blend	40% Indica, 60% Sativa
Flowering Time	55-65 days
THC Content	20%
CBD Level	Low
Effects	Creative, Euphoric, Happy
Best Use	Daytime, pain management, reduce stress
Flavor	Earthy, Sweet
Indoor Yield	450-550 g/m2
Outdoor Yield	600-700 g/plant
Growing Difficulty	Easy
Plant Sex	Feminized
Flowering Type	Photoperiod
Where to Grow	Indoor/Outdoor
Plant Height	Short
Seed Type	Feminized Cannabis Seeds

MustangStudFarm · Jul 12, 2020

GlueSniffer said:
Yes, veg seems slow to me. I guess with organic in soil, you are kinda playing a long term game anyway. Nothing is going to change instantly. I'll just keep being patient and keep paying attention to the plants. If it says up to 550g / sq meter, I think that is like 200g in a 2'x2'. I'm using about 250 watts of LED, so I would be pretty happy with 200g for my first grow. Not really sure how reasonable that might be.

Strain Description says, " nicely balanced hybrid that falls ever so slightly to the indica side... Girl Scout Cookies cannabis seeds are a good choice for gardeners both new and old – the strain is not difficult to cultivate, and offers up an average yield. If you live in a warm and humid climate, you could have good success with an outdoor Girl Scout Cookies crop; otherwise, indoors is ideal and the plants – which lean more toward indica in their short to medium height and bushy appearance – lend themselves well to the “Sea of Green” low-stress training method. You’re looking at a flowering stage of between eight and 10 weeks."

Strain Genetics OG Kush x Durban Poison
Blend 40% Indica, 60% Sativa
Flowering Time 55-65 days
THC Content 20%
CBD Level Low
Effects Creative, Euphoric, Happy
Best Use Daytime, pain management, reduce stress
Flavor Earthy, Sweet
Indoor Yield 450-550 g/m2
Outdoor Yield 600-700 g/plant
Growing Difficulty Easy
Plant Sex Feminized
Flowering Type Photoperiod
Where to Grow Indoor/Outdoor
Plant Height Short
Seed Type Feminized Cannabis Seeds

Looking at this info, I thought that I was wrong after seeing OG Kush x Durban Poison. Then, I saw under "plant height" it says short. I'm willing to bet that slow growth has more to do with the genetics than organic soil. It's probably just one of those that needs extra veg time.

GlueSniffer · Aug 17, 2020

An update:
Ended up vegging for 51 days from seed. 2 plants in a 2x2. LST, then topping, then scrog, then every top got topped. With scrog net, the canopy was around 10-12” from the soil and the tent was pretty full. After flipping the lights I Added another net to help keep the colas separated as the flowering stretch happened. I defoliated and lollipopped when I switched to flower and after two weeks of flower. Once in flower, I started adding molasses (1 Tbsp per gallon) and Big Bloom (Started at 1, then 1.5, now 2 Tbsp per gallon). I gave an all purpose ewc / nut tea when I flipped the lights and I gave a bloom ewc / bat guano nutrient tea after two weeks of flower.

It’s now been 3 weeks of flower and seems to be going nicely. Canopy is about 24” from soil.

I think I got the canopy the way I want it. Lots of colas, pretty even canopy. I only lollipopped to the first net. There are a lot of buds sites under the canopy that I left on the plant. I removed a lot of fan leaves, but there isn’t much light getting to the lower sites. They seem to be developing fine at the moment but the lux meter is showing 10x less than what I’d like for flowing. By best estimate of PAR (using crude lux to PPFD conversion) is around 800-1100 PPFD across the canopy. I think I was getting 60 PPFD 5 or 6” under the canopy.

Need to use to tent to dry so I can’t harvest the tops first. Wondering if the lower buds really divert that much energy from the tops?

I didn’t really plan on doing much from here on out. Possibly just fold fan leaves down or remove some from the middle if humidity starts to creep. Otherwise just going to keep watering at around 6.2 pH. Checked runoff recently and still at 7.1. I’ll probably keep with the 1 Tbsp Molasses and 2 Tbsp of Big Bloom unless I see burn or deficiencies. One plant might be showing the slightest sign of tip burn, but I’d rather have a tiny bit of burn than hungry plants I think.

LinguaPeel · Aug 17, 2020

Ppms are a myth.

"Runoff" pH is a useless number by itself. If you've got alkalinity and you acidify your irrigation, your "runoff" pH is going to be higher. Wouldn't it make more sense to measure your soil, not what you're washing out?

Quick survey for anyone reading this..:

What do you think pHing your water does? Calcium carbonate magically vanishes into thin air? Calcium carbonate is converted into magic pixy dust? Been laughing at these forums for a while and it amazes me that every single member spewing info has apparently skipped the first 3 semesters of weed school.

GlueSniffer · Aug 17, 2020

I measured the soil. It was 7.1 when I started. And isn't one of the ideas of supersoil is that you don't need to pH the water. I do it for piece of mind. I use tap water for my fish tanks. They settle at a pH of around 8.3. I just figure that if my water goes in at 6.2 and comes out at 7.1, then anywhere in that range should be ok for nutrient availability. If I prepared my soil better before I started I'd be closer to 6.5 instead of 7.1.

I use 25mg of ascorbic acid per gallon of water for the chlorine plus a few cap-fulls of lemon juice (ascorbic acid plus citric acid) to bring the pH down. Considering that my soil pH is already kind of high, I'd rather not water at 8.3 and runoff at what? Maybe 7.1, probably higher? If the soil life will deliver nutes to the roots at any pH, that's fantastic. But if for nothing else, a few cap fulls of lemon juice and an $8 meter that I keep calibrated is worth the piece of mind. There doesn't seem to be any blatant pH issues at the moment so I was just going to keep on keepin on.

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