Periodic Led Dimming: Maximising Efficiencies ?

Mechmike

Well-Known Member
That does not reply to the question.
Still right and correct ,but not an answer ...:P
Sorry about that. I can only offer anecdotal 'evidence' for an answer. I get more per plant, per square meter, per crop (total yields) with a mover. Just as you mentioned, due to more surface irradiation. I originally started using a mover because I wanted better than great buds directly under the light with popcorn at the periphery. Great buds from every single site was then and still remains my goal.
 
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Mechmike

Well-Known Member
Beta-Carotene and that stupid 'valley ' of most if not all , phosphor conversion leds ..
Where β-carotene absorbs ( excess light energy quenching / high irradiance photosynthesis accessory pigment) ,
our beloved 'whities' ,are 'poor' ....

Yesterday I installed 4 of these in my latest Vero build for the very reason you suggest. http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/exotic-hyper-violet-led-430nm/
I am in total agreement that quality white emitters are clearly the best solution but they do need a little supplementation at both ends of the action spectrum to be Sun God-like.
 

bicit

Well-Known Member
Start from here if you like ...

http://www.helsinki.fi/fdpps/PhD theses/Sarvikas.pdf

Probably best place to start for the issue ...
I know it has plenty of biochemistry inside ,just run through and note what you actually understand ...
(Althought as 've you said it youself ...It's rather easy to 'decode' that 'complex' biochemistry reactions ,
described ,by just using the web ...Easy ...Takes a bit time ,more ...That's all ..
Skip a TV-broadcasted football game ,for once and study some plant bio-chemistry !!! :P

LOL !!
Cheers .
It's not football distracting me and chemistry is a fun topic for me. I just have a lot on my plate trying to figure out how to fix cars/motorcycles, learn automation(arduino and the like), go to college, go to work, write a business plan, build a website, continuing research into my new gardening hobby...... busy busy busy. All while heavily under the influence.

I need more time in the day. Or one of those special pods from dragonball z that slows down time. Oh and a robot to prepare meals. I digress, I like where this is going though. Nature doesn't always get it right and is very messy and unscientific in it's tinkering. Good at doing a lot of things very well, but not optimized for anyone thing. Maybe not necessarily the best model? Especially considering how 'unnatural' the rest of the process happens to be.

I kinda like this though process of a 'valley' at noon with peaks on either side. It could hypothetically keep temps down during the hottest part of the day as well, not a bad thing for some areas where cooling costs can be excessive or they charge more for power during 'peak hours'.

Though I wonder if it's a good thing to blast a plant with tons of light first thing in the morning. Maybe it would be better to use some 730 initiators and start on minimum dimming and rapidly increase to max brightness. Since LED's don't have the start up time like HID or fluorescent lights do. Like waking up with the sun coming through a window with a cup of tea vs having your mother swing open the curtains at high noon while blasting an air horn....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
It's not football distracting me and chemistry is a fun topic for me. I just have a lot on my plate trying to figure out how to fix cars/motorcycles, learn automation(arduino and the like), go to college, go to work, write a business plan, build a website, continuing research into my new gardening hobby...... busy busy busy. All while heavily under the influence.

I need more time in the day. Or one of those special pods from dragonball z that slows down time. Oh and a robot to prepare meals. I digress, I like where this is going though. Nature doesn't always get it right and is very messy and unscientific in it's tinkering. Good at doing a lot of things very well, but not optimized for anyone thing. Maybe not necessarily the best model? Especially considering how 'unnatural' the rest of the process happens to be.

I kinda like this though process of a 'valley' at noon with peaks on either side. It could hypothetically keep temps down during the hottest part of the day as well, not a bad thing for some areas where cooling costs can be excessive or they charge more for power during 'peak hours'.

Though I wonder if it's a good thing to blast a plant with tons of light first thing in the morning. Maybe it would be better to use some 730 initiators and start on minimum dimming and rapidly increase to max brightness. Since LED's don't have the start up time like HID or fluorescent lights do. Like waking up with the sun coming through a window with a cup of tea vs having your mother swing open the curtains at high noon while blasting an air horn..
..

:lol::lol::lol::lol:..LOL !!!

Yes ,actually they used low irradiances of blue wls to "wake up " /. "pre-heat " the plants ,in order to 'imitate'dawn anf FR irradiation to imitate "dusk" ..If I remember correctly ....I 've to find that research..
(Out of thousands of stored pdfs....Shit ...And no classification ....How 'stoney' can that be ? )


No the whole idea of mine is when lights switch on ,a MCU
(Can be easily an Arduino UNO rev3 ,my favourite ,
compact size vs lots of capabilities for size ) ..

will start the chips from low (nadir current ) and increase to 'zenith ' current ...
And decrease and recycle ...Up till switching off ...

MCU can control via PWM signal (or even via digital potentiometer ),the
led drivers ..(most have either dimming option PWM or 'resistor" ..) ..
Piece of cake ...

What remains to be found ..
The actual values of nadir/zenith current (irradiation ) and the frequency / period /slope angle
of the "sinusoidal current-time waveform " .....

A led light ....

With several 'drive' modes

-Manual dimming (constant current )
-Auto Sinusoidal dimming (variable current)
-Auto Sawtooth dimming (variable current )
-Auto Square dimming (variable current )
-Auto Triangle dimming (variable current )


In all auto modes Nadir/Zenith Current values,frequency & Period are to be fully adjustable ...

How does that sound ?
 
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stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Shit ....
I have the right tool to do it !

It only will take a slight modification to my CXA3070 light .....

I've a function generator that can output 10 VDC !
And can output all the above waveforms ..(except only Sawtooth )
( To frequencies from 0.1 Hz up to 10MHZ ...

Perfect for dimming led drivers that way !!!!!
( But now ,only those with 10 VDC signal function ..)


http://www.ascel-electronic.de/kits/5/ae20125-10-mhz-sweep-dds-function-generator

(Sold as custom configurable kit ...Very cheap for a digital DDS function generator ! )


Well .....
I've some designing and planning to do ....
:eyesmoke:
 

Mechmike

Well-Known Member
Shit ....
I have the right tool to do it !

It only will take a slight modification to my CXA3070 light .....

I've a function generator that can output 10 VDC !
And can output all the above waveforms ..
( To frequencies from 0.1 Hz up to 10MHZ ...

Perfect for dimming led drivers that way !!!!!
( But now ,only those with 10 VDC signal function ..)


http://www.ascel-electronic.de/kits/5/ae20125-10-mhz-sweep-dds-function-generator

(Sold as custom configurable kit ...Very cheap for a digital DDS function generator ! )


Well .....
I've some designing and planning to do ....
:eyesmoke:
A modification is in the air! Way above my head but very cool indeed.
 

bicit

Well-Known Member
:lol::lol::lol::lol:..LOL !!!

A led light ....

With several 'drive' modes

-Manual dimming (constant current )
-Auto Sinusoidal dimming (variable current)

-Auto Sawtooth dimming (variable current )
-Auto Square dimming (variable current )
-Auto Triangle dimming (variable current )


In all auto modes Nadir/Zenith Current values,frequency & Period are to be fully adjustable ...

How does that sound ?
I think I missed something, what's the purpose of the three other modes(red)? I think I need to stop procrastinating on my math classes...
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Well sorry for the bad vid ....
A quick test using a 660nm red cheapo ...


A more 'realistic' approach '/ idea is when lights switch on ,
the MCU will gradually rise the current from i.e 350mA up to 2000mA in -say- 45'..
it will keep the CXAs at 2000mA for 15 ' and then start decreasing to 1000mA ,within 45' ..
Stay at 1000mA for 30' ...
And then climb up to 2000mA in 45' ..
Stay at peak for 15 ' ..

And so on ,until the end of the 12 hour regime ...

Now ,if it is Sinusoidal ,triangle or square ,it changes the 'pattern ' quite a lot ....

More 'nature-like' ,of course is the sinusoidal one ...

The square is a rather " steep " approach .. It's ruled out ...

The triangle waveform is more steep than sinusoidal ,but not as "hard" as the square ...


(flat-top triangle waveform actually,will be ..More like 'Trapezoid' ...
As it will stay for 15 ' at zenith(2000mA ) and 30' at nadir (1000mA )

 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Thanks to chemtrails in all major population areas, as well as heavy outdoor pot growing areas, it is a bad idea

So, unless you can afford a greenhouse, indoors is a much safer and healthier product

What may be of benefit, in certain areas, the ambient temps and RH, are more in tune to growing. which lessens the cost to grow

Personal Use growers can adjust with either humidifier, or dehumidifier, and running the ac or making that simple DIY Home Depot Bucket ice block ac


EDIT-forgot to mention the weather controllers manipulating weather for what nefarious purpose, who knows, but outdoor growers cannot count on what kind of weather to expect anymore
 
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bicit

Well-Known Member
Can you imagine ?


"Pulsating Cobs ! The future in horticulture ? "

LOL !

:P
Well, just an idea. Imagine if you will having an equal number of cobs, set them up on two wave form generators, then set them up on alternating wave functions. So that the total power draw is (almost) constant, but sets of cobs are pulsating inversely to each other. Like having a light mover without actually moving anything.
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Thanks to chemtrails in all major population areas, as well as heavy outdoor pot growing areas, it is a bad idea

So, unless you can afford a greenhouse, indoors is a much safer and healthier product

What may be of benefit, in certain areas, the ambient temps and RH, are more in tune to growing. which lessens the cost to grow

Personal Use growers can adjust with either humidifier, or dehumidifier, and running the ac or making that simple DIY Home Depot Bucket ice block ac


EDIT-forgot to mention the weather controllers manipulating weather for what nefarious purpose, who knows, but outdoor growers cannot count on what kind of weather to expect anymore

?????
:confused:

Posting to wrong thread ,Pet ?
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Well, just an idea. Imagine if you will having an equal number of cobs, set them up on two wave form generators, then set them up on alternating wave functions. So that the total power draw is (almost) constant, but sets of cobs are pulsating inversely to each other. Like having a light mover without actually moving anything.
That is a helluva good idea ,indeed !
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Any Arduino programming ideas on how to achieve that :
(Either via PWM signals or Vout signal to a digital pot ... )

PLD waveform.jpg


It would be great to have adjustable those variables via buttons/switches

(Although not really necessary ..It could have 3-4 pre-set( and stored in memory)
'PLD waveforms ' ,to choose from ... )

-CUR_INI (Initial Current value at switch on )
-CUR_NAD (Lowest Current 'Peak' value -nadir)
-CUR_ZEN (highest Current 'Peak" value-zenith )

And

-DAWN_TIM (time duration from Initial current value to reach Lowest current value )
-RISE_TIM (time duration of Lowest value current increasing to Highest cur. val . )
-ZEN_TIM (time duration of 'staying' at highest cur.val )
-DROP_TIM (time duration of Highest value current decreasing to Lowest cur. val . )
-NAD_TIM (time duration of 'staying' at lowest cur.val )
 
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stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Still your post does not answer the question ,
which was not about if it is healthy or not to smoke US field-grown mj ,
but which state(s) produce 'best' herb (more potent/ high yields ) ....

o_O

Cheers.
:peace:
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member


Figure 12.9

Photosynthesis and photoinhibition in sun and shade leaves. (a) shows photosynthesis-light response curves for sun and shade plants as in Figure 12.7. Dashed lines represent light absorbed by each plant. Shaded areas represent absorption of excess energy that has to be dissipated if the sun plant is to avoid damage. Shade plants have an even greater need because they absorb more light (more chlorophyll per unit leaf mass), but need less light to saturate photosynthesis. (b) shows (left side) a non-inhibited control shade leaf corresponding to that in (a) and (right side) the result of prolonged exposure to excess light (note scale expansion on the ordinate of (b)). In curve A, photoprotective processes have reduced the quantum yield of photosynthesis, but Pmax is unchanged. By implication, more light is required to produce the same amount of O2 (quantum yield is lower) but Pmax can be sustained by providing more light. Further exposure to excess light results in curve B where both quantum yeld and Pmax are reduced. Photosynthetic rate is then reduced at all light levels, and recover is slower compared to leaves in curve A

(Based on Osmond 1994, with acknowledgement to Bios Scientific Publishers)


http://plantsinaction.science.uq.edu.au/edition1/?q=content/12-1-2-photoinhibition-and-photoprotection


(...)
The extent to which this absorbed light is not ‘gainfully employed’ for photosynthesis is set by Pmax (light-saturated rate of photosynthesis in normal air).

At low light (< 100µmol quanta m–2 s–1), both sun and shade leaves use more than 80% of absorbed light for photosynthesis.


Once Pmax has been reached, all additional light is in excess, and since shade plants have a lower Pmax than sun plants, they experience more excess light at a given photon irradiance above saturation.

Additional stresses such as drought, nutrient limitation or temperature extremes can lead to a reduction in Pmax and thus increase the probability that plants will be exposed to excess light.

However, even the most hardy sun plant will reach Pmax at less than full sunlight (incident beam normal to leaf surface)
.

At that level (say, 1000µmol quanta m–2 s–1) approximately 25% of absorbed energy is used in driving photosynthesis, but at full sunlight (c. 2000µmol quanta m–2 s–1) as little as 10% is used in this way (Long et al. 1994).

Individual leaves on plants growing in full sun commonly experience excess light. Such light is potentially damaging, and plants adapted to full sunlight have evolved with a number of mechanisms for either avoiding excess light or for dissipating excess absorbed energy.
Mechanisms for avoiding high light such as leaf angle and surface features, forestall absorption of excess light.

Rapid responses, such as changes in leaf angle in Oxalis and Omalanthus, occur in a matter of minutes and can regulate light interception on a diurnal basis.

Slower-acting mechanisms including production of wax on leaves will be useful where there has been a sustained change in light environment. These kinds of mechanisms constitute external photoprotection
(...)
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
(...) Traditionally, photodamage has been associated with damage to the Dl protein of PSII (Section 1.2). Most of that research comes from unicellular green algae where photo-damage occurs if D1 degradation is faster than D1 synthesis. However, in higher plants, D1 protein turnover is optimal at growth irradiance and declines at both lower and higher irradiances. When D1 damage occurs in higher plants PSII centres become photochemically inactive. Non-functional PSII centres may then accumulate in the chloroplast grana and somehow increase thermal dissipation of excess light energy (Anderson and Aro 1994). Shade plants with their larger granal stacks may have greater capacity to accumulate non-functional PSII centres, whereas sun plants may rely on a higher rate of D1 turnover and larger xanthophyll pool sizes for their internal photoprotection.

In either circumstance, photoprotection involves a prodigious turnover of PSII reaction centres. W.S. Chow (pers. comm.) estimates that about 1 million damaged centres are renewed every second for each square millimetre of a capsicum leaf, even in low light (20µmol quanta m–2 s–1, i.e. near to light-compenstion point).

At light saturation (say, 1000µmol quanta m–2 s–1), turnover would be about 50 million reaction centres per second!

Self-repair on this scale is a prerequisite to continuing leaf function, and a constant drain on plant resources because replacement of D1 protein is part of the repair process.


(...)


http://plantsinaction.science.uq.edu.au/edition1/?q=content/12-1-2-photoinhibition-and-photoprotection
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
5.3. Action spectrum of photoinhibition suggests that both Mn and Chl
function as photoreceptor(s) of photoinhibition


The action spectrum of photoinhibition in vivo
from a higher plant (Paper II, Fig. 1) shows general similarities with the earlier
in vitro spectra (Jones and Kok 1966; Renger et al.
1989; Jung and Kim 1990; Santabarbara et al. 2001a; Hakala et al. 2005; Ohnishi et al.
2005), suggesting that the same photoinhibition reactions occur in both conditions.
Accordingly, in Synechocystis sp. PCC 6803 cells the photoinhibitory efficiency of 400-450
nm light is over twice as high as that of 600-650 nm light and intermediate wavelengths
(450-600 nm) are less efficient (Tyystjärvi et al. 2002)
.

Furthermore, transcripts of the
psbA gene that codes for the D1 protein in
Synechocystis
sp. PCC 6803 decrease after transfer
of the cells from darkness to orange light
and increase when the cells are transferred from
darkness to blue-green light, suggesting that also the redox state of the photosynthetic
electron transfer chain regulates
psbA
transcription
(El Bissati and Kirilovsky 2001). In
comparison with the
in vitro
action spectra, the
in vivo
spectrum is more flat in the visible
light region and shows higher sensitivity to UV light. This difference between
in vivo
and
in
vitro
action spectra may partially be caused by the fact that leaves are optically thicker than
thylakoid suspensions used
in vitro
. Furthermore, leaves show a variety of responses to
light quality and intensity that are absent in isolated systems (for review, see Demmig-
Adams and Adams 1992; Niyogi et al. 1998).

http://www.helsinki.fi/fdpps/PhD theses/Sarvikas.pdf
 
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