Ph or Deficiency?

So I had signs of calmag about 10 days ago and had used calmag from botanicare to treat the issue. I had noticed that it defintely helped the leaves to be a fuller healthier green well the newer leaves the old leaves already affected had stayed bad I'll prune em tomorrow. So the yellowing between the veins and slight burning on the edges of the leaf was making me change my mind to think that it turned into a potassium deficiency because the calcium from the calmag was possibly not getting absorbed with a ph below 6.5 and the excess ca could lockout the potassium. So after a good 10 days without growbig/ big bloom jsut watering with occasional calmag the potassium looking deficiency came out so i figured to raise the ph for the ca to absorb and I was hoping it would adress the leaves with burned edges which looked like cal/ potassium defcicinecy so i fed them grow big big bloom 1/4 tsp calmag and ph'd my nutes to 6.5 or slightly above and the day after now the yellowing on the new leaves started popping up on all of em. So I would imagine I made the ph too high and that it caused iron to get locked out? the leaves are sort of irregular and wrinkly on some occasional ones and mostly its the yellowing on the inside of the new leaves going outward with the tips being kind of a darker styrophoam green color. theyre on day 40~ and i fed them 4 tsp big bloom 3 grow big 1/4 tsp calmag and like 4 drops ph up in a gallon, planning on watering them tomorrow with it ph'd down between 6-6.5 to get more iron absorption, any ideas whats going on? im using ffof

I had used a ph test kit where you fill a tube and add 3 test drops to get a color, a light yellow gold was 6.0 and a golden piss color was 6.5 and light green for 7.0 and it was hard to tell whether the colors could possibly blend in between or not because it was hard to tell if it was 6.5 or 6.0 but it looked more like the gold piss color, I didnt know if that it was either one color or the other so thinking the ca wasn't getting absorbed *ahead of time* causing the burning edges I figured the ph was slightly less then 6.5 for the soil so I ph'd the nutes up to a more golden color so it could've been 6.5-7 i guess causing iron lockout

Pictures, .... or its all just a dream

Dumme said:

Pictures, .... or its all just a dream

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Haha I felt kinda dumb not taking pictures the lower growth had calmag/potash (i think) and i added like 3 drops of ph up to my nutes that were already testing 6.5 before and 6.5 again after so i wouldn't have expected the drastic yellowing on the new inner growth (suspecting iron def) but the wrinkling made me also suspect sulphur but isnt sulphur a uniform yellowing whereas iron is inner part of new leaves? I'm thinking i should flush/water with it 6.0-6.5. I figured one of them was obviously nitrogen but i didn't know if those brown spots were burns, ill add a pic of the one i thought had potash if i can find it

bro54209 said:

So I had signs of calmag about 10 days ago and had used calmag from botanicare to treat the issue. I had noticed that it defintely helped the leaves to be a fuller healthier green

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That's because "calmag" contains N. The problem with calmag is that it acidifies your nutrient max, and you treat something you may not have needed to treat. For example, if you had an mg def, adding ca can make it worse (they must exist in a ratio). Just use gypsum to treat ca def, epsom salt to treat mg def, and use fish emulsion if you think more N would help. (You'll save money, you won't use as much ph-up, which adds more salts to the soil, leading to a spriral.).

I see overwatering and a little nute burn. A tiny amount of ca def.

az2000 said:

That's because "calmag" contains N. The problem with calmag is that it acidifies your nutrient max, and you treat something you may not have needed to treat. For example, if you had an mg def, adding ca can make it worse (they must exist in a ratio). Just use gypsum to treat ca def, epsom salt to treat mg def, and use fish emulsion if you think more N would help. (You'll save money, you won't use as much ph-up, which adds more salts to the soil, leading to a spriral.).

I see overwatering and a little nute burn. A tiny amount of ca def.

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Thanks Az! Man Id love to move there. so what are the symptoms of nute burn? Id assume burning at the leaf edge and leaves curling down are the main ones. Ive felt like they've been having too much water, i usually feed water then dry for ea of 3 days and repeat to feed dry water dry... feeding 1nce a week but this past time i held out 10-12 days since i fed then saw what i think was mag def and some potash on one leaf (ill take pic in an hr when they wake up) . I was working up from 2/3 nutes last to full str 4tsp big bloom 3tsp grow big but then only 1/4tsp calmag and phd up using ffof. Fucking fox farm is too potent as hard as I tried to work them up its just so much better to let the soil work itself out. So i fed the other day then yesterday they had no water or even misted ( my ambient humidity went up to 60 for veg), i was going to try and water them with a ph corRection today but id guess i should let them have 2 full days to dry since i fed then tomorrow I could try and ph bottled spring water to 6.5 and flush them all with some run off to leech out salts they're on about week 5 and i was getting cheap mixing half a gal spring water with half a gal tap water which is alkaline and has a ppm of over 300 so i really think that impurities and trace minerals built up in the soil, any recommendations on how long out i should feed? Also Az you said you saw ca def and i can see that but i also thought i saw mag on the 2nd to last pic the way it was yellowing between the veins, i totally can see how if it was just mag that the extra cal, fe, and n + acidity can lock out i figured excess cal could've been responsible for the potash def i saw on a leaf, so the ph has to be less than 6.2 for cal to not absorb yet i was using tap water thats lik 7.5-7.8~ mixed with bottled but cal doesn't cause the yellowing on the top new growth from the inside out does it? The new tops look like little spider man symbols the way the leaves are twisty which i thought was iron lockout being too alkaline from the tap water. And what's crazy is that the darn run off tested 6.5 aswell as the nutes. Need to upgrade to an electronic ph monitor the drops and colors suck

Honestly people dumping "calmag" on their plants at the first hint of yellowing is like a scourge on the growing community.Get a simple complete nutrient formula (that contains calcium and magnesium)ph correctly for your medium,monitor your ec and just raise it a bit before throwing your whole nutrient profile/root zone ph out of wack.There is no such thing as a "calmag" deficiency.Gypsum is an excellent calcium alternative...as a bonus it helps to aggregate your medium.And ofc there is magnesium sulfate in the form of "epsom salts".

Resinhound said:

Honestly people dumping "calmag" on their plants at the first hint of yellowing is like a scourge on the growing community.Get a simple complete nutrient formula (that contains calcium and magnesium)ph correctly for your medium,monitor your ec and just raise it a bit before throwing your whole nutrient profile/root zone ph out of wack.There is no such thing as a "calmag" deficiency.Gypsum is an excellent calcium alternative...as a bonus it helps to aggregate your medium.And ofc there is magnesium sulfate in the form of "epsom salts".

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I'm surprised Fox farm lacks calcium, thank you for the advice i feel like such a noob for adding 4 nutes to address one deficiency, so much better to add just gypsum and epson to get more control on what I'm adding without the excess concentrate, do they dissolve in water or is it a soil additive/top dressing? I assume i shouldn't go out and feed them gypsum tomorrow but to wait 2 waters to try and level out ph and flush salts?

Epsom salts can be disolved in water and foliar fed to plants I normally use 1/4 tsp in a quart of water with a dash of ej assist for a water surficant.Calcium sulfate dihydrate (gypsum) is used as a top dress on your soil and watered in.

bro54209 said:

so what are the symptoms of nute burn? Id assume burning at the leaf edge and leaves curling down are the main ones.

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In the 721 photo I see some tips which look burnt. Just 1/8 burns on the tips. It may have happened in the past. They're older leaves.

bro54209 said:

Ive felt like they've been having too much water, i usually feed water then dry for ea of 3 days and repeat to feed dry water dry... feeding 1nce a week but this past time i held out 10-12 days

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I recommend feeding every watering. Reduce your nutrient strength to give what the plant needs without developing salt buildup. Monitor runoff ppm so you'll see salt buildup happening before it affects the plant.

I don't go for the alternating feed/water/feed. The only reason I can see to do that is to feed organic "innoculants." Even then, 10-12 days is too long to note feed unless it's an organic soil.

If your soil has nutrients in it (out of the bag), this is a reason to use soil with no nutrients. When you can give what your plants need (as they need it), you don't run into this guess work about whether the soil is providing enough. Either do full organic, or give them everything each watering.

bro54209 said:

Need to upgrade to an electronic ph monitor the drops and colors suck

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I don't ph my nutrients. If you don't over-do it with the boutique multi-bottle "lineups," you don't need to ph for soil. I start with tap and RO water mixed to 150ppm. I feed enough to not get salt buildup. I mix enough for 20-30% runoff. No need to ph. (No calmag adding acidity and salts. No ph-up adding salts.).

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) dissolves in water (2.0-2.5 g/L). As much as you'll need to use (between 1.4-2.8g per gallon) it dissolves. I would let it dissolve overnight. (It's slow.). Some of the coarser material may not dissolve. It will just pour into the soil and break down over time. (Or, you grind the gypsum to a finer consistency in a mortar/pestle.).

If you read the link I gave you above, it describes how to make calcium acetate by dissolving egg shells in vinegar, then dehydrating the vinegar into a powder. That's much more soluble (almost 40g/L). The nice thing about having some of that on hand is that it doesn't contain sulfur. If you had to treat both a Ca and Mg def, epsom and gypsum (both contain sulfur) could be more sulfur than you want.

Wow eggs and vinegar i got everything i need already ok so would you recommend to feed them something like monday wed n Friday giving them 4 'dry' days and going down to 1/4 str or even down to an 8th? So ill cut out the calmag to keep that shit from throwing everything off, make that homade calcium, then leave about a gram dissolved in a gal overnight half spring/tap, add just 1tsp big bloom and 3/4tsp grow big(or less??) (ill check ph to make sure it's 6.5) avoiding any ph to not add salt unless wayy off, i was feeding enough to just get a few drops runoff but az2000 you recommend 20% runoff? Should i recycle any of the runoff back into the water or don't to keep salts out? Yesterday and today were dry days so i was imagining possibly starting off sunday at 8th str, monday dry, tues feed 1/8 str,wed dry, thur 1/4 str, and then dry friday and Saturday repeating same feed days but 1/4 all next week then 1/2 the next week? I should really flush them really good though this next week perhaps i popped the seeds oct 31st so its been ~43 days and i started nutes wayyyyy to early like day 5 when they got into red solos lolol theyve been doing amazingly though already got some foot bushes on my first go

Resinhound said:

Epsom salts can be disolved in water and foliar fed to plants I normally use 1/4 tsp in a quart of water with a dash of ej assist for a water surficant.Calcium sulfate dihydrate (gypsum) is used as a top dress on your soil and watered in.

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I liked the idea of foliar feeding, would calmag be useful for foliar to keep it from building up acids in the soil? I experimented with foliar and burnt holes here and there some (avoiding the light at a quarter str) and they got real perky it was kinda a hassle to try and rinse with water afterwards and making sure the leaves dry off well

bro54209 said:

Should i recycle any of the runoff back into the water or don't to keep salts out?

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Never put the runoff back into the soil. (The only time I do that is when I'm initially wetting dry soil before planting.). Water only when the container is very light to lift. You can wait until the leaves droop to see what is too dry, and then try to get close to that without drooping leaves. I would feed every watering unless there is a reason to do otherwise. Start with 150ppm water, measure your runoff ppm to see if you overfeed. (If you have issues it's handy to know what the runoff ppm has been like, the trend, etc.). If you get your strength just right, you don't have to feed for a lot of runoff. But, I think I get better results by pushing out what may be imbalanced nutrients, replacing them with fresh and properly balanced. I like 20% runoff.

Is this Calcium? I was thinking it was sulphur with overall yellowing but now i can see the spots which i think is cal, today i fed them a diluted 1gallon with 1tsp big bloom 1/2tsp grow big then had to add ph down (ph>salts?) because the nutes were slightly over 7 ph and got it just above 6.5 (didn't want to over correct) fed them until they were soaked added another 8oz in the jug with about 1/5 gallon left to further dilute then added the water down version to get them to run off some salt they were real dry after waiting since Friday so ill feed them tues or Wednesday at 1.5-2xs the nutes then ill keep them on 1tsp big bloom 1/2 grow big for about 3 feedings. Im getting my feeding schedule in order im planning on a regular basis to lightly feed mon n friday then water Wednesdays and 4 days they're dry. Edit: today i fed half what i originally said i gave 1/2 big bloom 1/4 grow big

bro54209 said:

Is this Calcium? I was thinking it was sulphur with overall yellowing but now i can see the spots which i think is cal, today i fed them a diluted 1gallon with 1tsp big bloom 1/2tsp grow big then had to add ph down (ph>salts?) because the nutes were slightly over 7 ph and got it just above 6.5 (didn't want to over correct) fed them until they were soaked added another 8oz in the jug with about 1/5 gallon left to further dilute then added the water down version to get them to run off some salt they were real dry after waiting since Friday so ill feed them tues or Wednesday at 1.5-2xs the nutes then ill keep them on 1tsp big bloom 1/2 grow big for about 3 feedings. Im getting my feeding schedule in order im planning on a regular basis to lightly feed mon n friday then water Wednesdays and 4 days they're dry. Edit: today i fed half what i originally said i gave 1/2 big bloom 1/4 grow big

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No

Dumme said:

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No

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That is the coolest fucking table ever, a much better overall picture than groweedeasy's, im going to memorize them, thanks Dumme!

After feeding them the 1/8 tsp growbig + 1/4 tsp bigbloom yesterday they were showing nitrogen toxcitity and the leaves are just plain burning, the top 3/4-1.25 inches of soil are dry already and was wondering if i should flush them right now being tht they were fed 24 hrs ago or to wait til tomorrow when theyre dryer to prevent over watering? im going to water them 2-3 more times before i go back to feeding and work my way up sooo much slowerrrrrr

az2000 said:

Never put the runoff back into the soil. (The only time I do that is when I'm initially wetting dry soil before planting.). Water only when the container is very light to lift. You can wait until the leaves droop to see what is too dry, and then try to get close to that without drooping leaves. I would feed every watering unless there is a reason to do otherwise. Start with 150ppm water, measure your runoff ppm to see if you overfeed. (If you have issues it's handy to know what the runoff ppm has been like, the trend, etc.). If you get your strength just right, you don't have to feed for a lot of runoff. But, I think I get better results by pushing out what may be imbalanced nutrients, replacing them with fresh and properly balanced. I like 20% runoff.

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Should I ph my pure water im flushing with? I think my ph was a little high so I'm adjusting it to 6.5

Water (especially pure) doesn't have much buffering (ions) to hold ph. If you used some ph-down it would take about 1 drop. Likewise, when that water hits your soil it will adjust to the soil's ph, not pull the soil to the water's ph. (A battle of ions, and pure water has little).

So, it's a waste of time. If it makes you feel good, do it.